Playing devils advocate here....

[Indy1987]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

True it does not matter but I still think players and recruits and families come here and see what is going on with IU

I've never once heard a recruit say they turned a school down because of a message board?    Kids choose schools based on tons of things(the coach, players in the NBA, TV exposure, playing time, style of play, facilities, degrees offered, girl to boy ratio ,etc... If message boards are a deciding factor than maybe they are best somewhere without the spotlight of a blue blood program.  

Random fans on a message board is all we are.  You give us too much credit for being able to do things.

Go Hoosiers!!!

[Hoosier987]

I'll end with this on this thread. Who else is going to turn this program around? Don't say Chris Beard, not happening. We better hope and ROOT for Archie to succeed at IU because if he can't turn us around nobody will...maybe we're cursed.

 

[IowaHoosierFan]

30 minutes ago, Hoosier987 said:

I'll end with this on this thread. Who else is going to turn this program around? Don't say Chris Beard, not happening. We better hope and ROOT for Archie to succeed at IU because if he can't turn us around nobody will...maybe we're cursed.

 

I like CAM but i don't think he is the Messiah, the next coming of whatever.  He is just a coach.  There are hundreds of other coaches and assistance out there that could be the one to turn it around.  We just don't know.  Must play better.  Must win more.  Then it all gets better 

[IU Scott]

3 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I like CAM but i don't think he is the Messiah, the next coming of whatever.  He is just a coach.  There are hundreds of other coaches and assistance out there that could be the one to turn it around.  We just don't know.  Must play better.  Must win more.  Then it all gets better 

I don't think he meant that Archie was the Messiah but stating that if we have to make a change again this early then we won't get anyone better.

[IowaHoosierFan]

4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I don't think he meant that Archie was the Messiah but stating that if we have to make a change again this early then we won't get anyone better.

i know where you stand on this position Scott, you don't need to respond everytime.  Please and Thank you

[IU Scott]

3 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

i know where you stand on this position Scott, you don't need to respond everytime.  Please and Thank you

I wasn't saying it was my viewpoint but stating what I thought the poster meant that you were responding to.

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, mchenry34 said:

Do I think we are abundantly talented as a team and should never struggle? No.

 

 

First, your post was great and I apologize for whittling it down to just one line, but I wanted to focus in on this one line. I've said that I'm beginning to get concerned about Archie. I like Archie a lot, I think he's potentially a great long term fit for IU and I think he's a good coach. I get concerned at times that we don't shoot enough three's, though I'm not yet sure if that's system or that we don't have good shooters, but that's not the point. I'm not worried about X's and O's, substitutions, adjustments, etc. I think Archie knows those things. 

But for all the hand wringing over how bad IU's guards are, my biggest concern right now is the roster, which ultimately is Archie's responsibility. I'm concerned that in year 3 these are our guards. I'm concerned we couldn't land DJ Carton, Ramsey, Quinones, or any of the guards/wings he was after last year. 

Look at our current roster and it's not surprising our guards/wings aren't good enough.

24/7 High School Rankings:

Green: Ranked 197

Al Durham: 230

Damezi Anderson: 124

Rob Phinisee: 135

Jerome Hunter (listed as a PF): 59

Aarmaan Franklin: 151

Does that scream elite Big Ten guard/wing play to anyone? Of our six guards/wings (counting Hunter as a guard/wing, though I also think he's more of a 3/4) half of them were ranked outside the top 150 coming out of high school. Half of them! Only one (again, the guy 24/7 actually lists as a PF) was ranked in the top 100 and there isn't a single top 50 guy. 

Yes, I realize I'm the guy championing the small ball lineup. I do maintain that it's worth a try to see if we can open things up in the paint, but even that is more about giving TJD, Brunk and Smith more space to do what they do. 

But, this roster needs an infusion of talent at the guard and wing spots. Again, there's not a top 50 guys in the bunch and while I like our 2020 class, we're not adding a top 50 guy next year either (at least not yet). Archie needs to lock down some elite guards/wings. 

 

[cybergates]

13 hours ago, The Daily Hoosier said:

Very few people know better than Beilein what Archie is going through, and how ridiculous fans and writers can be early in a coaching tenure.  I talked to him about it last year and documented it here.

https://www.thedailyhoosier.com/john-beilein-on-archie-millers-challenge-the-only-way-to-do-it-is-culture/

One thing that stood out to me in the article (great one BTW) was Beilein saying that other teams have to go down for you to go up. He was fortunate that IU and others went down allowing him to go up. The Big Ten has gotten tougher each year Archie has been here according to Kenpom, 5th in 18, 2nd in 19, and 1st thus far in 20 in conference rankings. 

I agree this team doesn't pass the eye test and all 3 losses have been brutal in their own way(s) and the Neb and NW wins were brutal in their own right, however the numbers say the team is actually improving season to season even if it doesn't feel like it.

Overall rank has improved from 71 to 52 to 42

AdjO rank has improved from 92 to 82 to 41 (adjusted for SoS so the cupcake argument is out). Interestingly the actual AdjO #'s have decreased while the rank has improved showing that nationally teams have gotten worse at offense or better at defense each year?

AdjD rank has improved from 65 to 32 then gotten worse thus far this season to 56. Again, interesting to me it that the actual #'s have improved each year from 99.0 to 95.4 to 92.9 but rank did not. 

Lastly, overally AdjEM has improved each season as well, 10.4 to 13.7 to 14.9.

I know #'s can be manipulated to try and illustrate a certain point, so I've tried to be as objective as possible here by showing both sides (rank and actual).

Getting back to Beilein's quote that started me down this path, my point is even if this team is showing improvement in the #'s it may not show improvement in the record this season with the Big Ten being so tough. I'm as fed up with the team's overall lack of heart and effort displayed in the bad games this season as anyone, and my faith in CAM has certainly waned to an all-time low, but I'm still not ready to give up on him and am hoping something sparks a turn the corner moment for this 12-3 team, whether it be CAM himself (preferable), RMK's return on Saturday, AJ Moye's "speech" , or something else. 

Go Hoosiers!

[cybergates]

4 hours ago, 13th&Jackson said:

This is going to be my last post in this thread. In 2017, CAM's last Dayton team (7 seed) had a first round matchup against 30-4 (10 seed) Wichita State. WS won 64-58, then took KY to the wire, losing 65-62. KY went to the FF.

After the game, Charles Barkley went off on the selection committee for underseeding both teams and pairing them in the first round. He said, watching the game, they were two of the best coaches in the tourney.

Here's a game summary:

Tenth-seeded Wichita State always finds a way to reserve its best effort for the NCAA Tournament. The Shockers (31-4) won their 16th straight game by holding the Flyers, who average 76.5 points per game, below 60 points for just the second time this season. Dayton (24-8) committed a scant six turnovers and forced 16, but were unable to find enough offense to prevent a second consecutive first-round exit.

Don't know if CAM will be successful at IU, but he can coach. If he isn't successful and gets fired, I hate to think where that leaves the status of the program.

I was at that game. Me and my friends joked that it was the next IU coach bowl, winner gets the job. We came away impressed with both teams/coaches (minus Mrs. Wichita St.), and felt like IU would be in good hands with either if that's who we ended up with. Going into the game one of my friends was adamantly against CAM, but after the game he was impressed.

I really hope CAM gets to a place here where the players are more-talented versions of the tough, smart players on the court for Dayton that day. 

[FKIM01]

18 hours ago, 13th&Jackson said:

Big fan of Belein, but he is almost 67. He was 46-53 his first 3 years at MI. By the time he’d get his system and players in place, he’d be 70. Anyone think that’s the answer for this program?

Nope. 

...and if we start a cycle of replacing a coach every three years, this program is headed for the dust bin of irrelevancy.

It's obvious from the Northwestern postgame that Archie gets it.  So frustrating that impatient fans don't.

[FKIM01]

15 hours ago, CTrojan88 said:

Coaches do not deserve 4 years if there has not been positive change or improvement from when they arrived.  Archie’s teams have not improved.....if he misses the tournament again this year, he needs to go.

I'm sure the same things were said about a few other coaches who eventually turned it around.  Why so impatient?  If you got your way, you'd probably be looking at another 2-3-4 years of mediocrity while a new coach installed yet another completely different offensive and defensive scheme.  Recruits would avoid IU because every other coach recruiting them would be whispering in their ears that their coach wouldn't be there to see them graduate.

You're unhappy...I get that, but I'm not at all confident that a coaching change after this season would result in better seasons the next 2-3 years than if you simply leave Archie in place and let him continue to build his program.  Saying that Archie's teams have not improved is not borne out by the comparative win-loss records unless there is a monster collapse over the remainder of the season.  You're speaking out of frustration and I'd encourage you to look at the metrics after you've had a chance to get that frustration vented.  If this team solves it's shooting woes, they have a chance to be pretty good.

[FKIM01]

16 hours ago, dbmhoosier said:

You let go when you know he’s not the right guy. That could be one year or ten.  You know when you know.   Once you know you’ve made a mistake you could bait immediately if you’re smart.  

The only problem is...there is substantial disagreement on the "know" part.

[zerawkid]

44 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Nope. 

...and if we start a cycle of replacing a coach every three years, this program is headed for the dust bin of irrelevancy.

It's obvious from the Northwestern postgame that Archie gets it.  So frustrating that impatient fans don't.

Not sure if anyone has pointed this out yet, there’s a lot of perspective to sift through on this board. However, a lot has been made of the IU fan base being so intense and being representative of a place where recruits will likely want to come and play.
 

However, the same can be mentioned about what happens if this program turns into one that jettisons coaches every three years. If leadership at the school folds to fan demand to easily, if they display a lack of support for their hires to that extent, serious candidates in the future aren’t going to take us as seriously. Why is this? These are serious professionals, and they need to have an assurance that there will be reasonable time to build things correctly, and adjust for the unforeseen.

 

Cooler heads prevail, they understand three years does not a program make. 

[IowaHoosierFan]

56 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Nope. 

...and if we start a cycle of replacing a coach every three years, this program is headed for the dust bin of irrelevancy.

It's obvious from the Northwestern postgame that Archie gets it.  So frustrating that impatient fans don't.

we don't have a cycle of firing coaches after 3 years  You're insinuating that we're going to fire the next coach after 3 years and the one after that, which could or could not be true.  I am honestly not sure what we should do with CAM.  He hasn't become the coach i expected and the play hasn't been what i expected either, regardless of injuries or roster.  Definitely going to be interesting to see how the season pans out

[FKIM01]

16 hours ago, BGleas said:

That’s not what he said. The comment from the assistant coach wasn’t about Archie, it was about the IU admin not being able to get it together. 

Which makes a whole lot more sense to me...

[FKIM01]

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

First, your post was great and I apologize for whittling it down to just one line, but I wanted to focus in on this one line. I've said that I'm beginning to get concerned about Archie. I like Archie a lot, I think he's potentially a great long term fit for IU and I think he's a good coach. I get concerned at times that we don't shoot enough three's, though I'm not yet sure if that's system or that we don't have good shooters, but that's not the point. I'm not worried about X's and O's, substitutions, adjustments, etc. I think Archie knows those things. 

But for all the hand wringing over how bad IU's guards are, my biggest concern right now is the roster, which ultimately is Archie's responsibility. I'm concerned that in year 3 these are our guards. I'm concerned we couldn't land DJ Carton, Ramsey, Quinones, or any of the guards/wings he was after last year. 

Look at our current roster and it's not surprising our guards/wings aren't good enough.

24/7 High School Rankings:

Green: Ranked 197

Al Durham: 230

Damezi Anderson: 124

Rob Phinisee: 135

Jerome Hunter (listed as a PF): 59

Aarmaan Franklin: 151

Does that scream elite Big Ten guard/wing play to anyone? Of our six guards/wings (counting Hunter as a guard/wing, though I also think he's more of a 3/4) half of them were ranked outside the top 150 coming out of high school. Half of them! Only one (again, the guy 24/7 actually lists as a PF) was ranked in the top 100 and there isn't a single top 50 guy. 

Yes, I realize I'm the guy championing the small ball lineup. I do maintain that it's worth a try to see if we can open things up in the paint, but even that is more about giving TJD, Brunk and Smith more space to do what they do. 

But, this roster needs an infusion of talent at the guard and wing spots. Again, there's not a top 50 guys in the bunch and while I like our 2020 class, we're not adding a top 50 guy next year either (at least not yet). Archie needs to lock down some elite guards/wings. 

Other than missing Romeo, I'm with you...I would think a former PG like Archie at IU could consistently recruit guards at a pretty high level.  Carton hurt the most to me...I see what he's been doing at OSU and can only imagine how he could have helped IU.

[Hoosierhoopster]

56 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Other than missing Romeo, I'm with you...I would think a former PG like Archie at IU could consistently recruit guards at a pretty high level.  Carton hurt the most to me...I see what he's been doing at OSU and can only imagine how he could have helped IU.

Yes do have to include Romeo, as a recruited and landed top guard in IN and the country, but also have to look forward (existing guards and forward), we do need elite guards and wings -- I'm not as hung up on rankings, besides guys like Vic or OG being vastly underrated (as Crean recruits), Rob is far better than his ranking would imply, and there are always under-ranked guys. Yes, though, we do want to land the deservedly highly ranked guards/wings too. 

However, looking at our incoming class, they may fit pretty well. Leal is ranked around 98 (sg), a 4-star, Geronimo 130 (SF/wing) and Galloway 136 (sg). By a number of accounts, Geronimo is under-ranked. We'll see, but there's a lot of fire about him being very good. Fife and Izzo were recruiting Galloway. Jury's still out, none are 5-star elite / highly ranked recruits, but they're all in the top 150 and all look pretty good.

[Lurker]

IU BB needs to start by building a foundation. If the coach feels like these guys ('20 recruits) are a good fit then I'm not too worried about their rankings. Supposedly CAM did more with less at Dayton so we'll see if he can do it here. Start winning games and the recruits will come.  I look at someone like Kamar Baldwin at Butler. He fits their system and came in and was very good as a freshman and was ranked about 155.  Trevion Williams was 154 and he isn't bad. Get some people healthy and I am somewhat optimistic about next year.

[Rogermci]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

IU BB needs to start by building a foundation. If the coach feels like these guys ('20 recruits) are a good fit then I'm not too worried about their rankings. Supposedly CAM did more with less at Dayton so we'll see if he can do it here. Start winning games and the recruits will come.  I look at someone like Kamar Baldwin at Butler. He fits their system and came in and was very good as a freshman and was ranked about 155.  Trevion Williams was 154 and he isn't bad. Get some people healthy and I am somewhat optimistic about next year.

Amen brother.   6 years watching Arch in Dayton.  He knows what he's doing.  We gotta stop bashing him for the rest of the year.  Counter productive for now because he's coming back next year.  Give him a chance with his players and think before you post.