JugRox Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 hour ago, dbmhoosier said: Isn’t the buyout offset by whatever he earns elsewhere? So it really isn’t a big deal. And this is a completely reasonable discussion. Miss the dance this season and I guarantee you he’s not the coach here much longer. Barring massive changes that looks likely. No, there is no offset in Miller’s contract. That was in Crean’s extension and he didn’t work the following year after getting fired so IU had to pay his buyout in full. And if it’s over 7 million (its a big deal), Miller isn’t going anywhere. The buyout alone has Miller here at least one if not 2 more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerawkid Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, JugRox said: No, there is no offset in Miller’s contract. That was in Crean’s extension and he didn’t work the following year after getting fired so IU had to pay his buyout in full. And if it’s over 7 million (its a big deal), Miller isn’t going anywhere. The buyout alone has Miller here at least one if not 2 more years. Indeed. And this was all done very intentionally, by both sides. A contract is a meeting of the minds. I’m sure Archie didn’t imagine this is where he’d be in year three, but when writing a contract, worst case scenarios (which we are NOT in, by the way) have to be foreseen and planned for. This school and Archie are tied to each other because both parties knew that, in an imperfect world, he might actually need four or five years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 9 minutes ago, JugRox said: No, there is no offset in Miller’s contract. That was in Crean’s extension and he didn’t work the following year after getting fired so IU had to pay his buyout in full. And if it’s over 7 million (its a big deal), Miller isn’t going anywhere. The buyout alone has Miller here at least one if not 2 more years. Correct. To an extent. No offset till March 31 of 2022. Archie Miller's contract details announced - Indiana Daily Student Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JugRox Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 10 hours ago, JABBATHEHOOSIER said: John Beilein's first 4 years at Michigan were as follows Year 1 - 10-22 Year 2 - 21-14 Year 3 - 15-17 Year 4- 21-14 Our fanbase would have never allowed him to reach his full potential here. Michigan was patient and it paid off. I hope Archie can get the same treatment. There are many examples like this. Unfortunately, there are many examples of coaches given too much time. IMO, Miller is going to get at least 4, probably 5. Which is plenty of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuckerkorn Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 9 hours ago, Rogermci said: I live in Dayton adjacent to UD campus, went to IU and have watched the game for many many years. Went to probably 40 games that Archie coached and watched most of the rest on TV. Archie did more with less than any coach that I know of in college basketball. In 6 years he had 2 top 100 recruits and one transferred out. Made the Sweet 16 one year and Elite 8 another. Kicked 2 players off the team that made the 16. Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about. Archie can flat out coach. This entire discussion can and will be viewed by recruits and parents of recruits. It's a disgrace and will be counter productive in our attempts to attract top players to IU. This is why I (and I'm sure there are others) are so frustrated with the current level of our play. From all accounts Archie can coach - even got a ringing endorsement from B. Knight himself). It was a welcome change that he put a lot of emphasis on defense when he got here. He's not a "salesman" type of personality, instead a serious guy. These are all good traits, IMO. Then comes the results: woeful offense, frequent periods of unfocused play, minimal player improvement. It doesn't seem to add up. When we message board experts opine/gripe about various aspects of the team very often Archie acknowledges the same points - so he certainly sees what we see. And yet, things continue to flounder. Sometimes a coach can do a lot more with a lot less. Maybe at UD he had guys that weren't as physically gifted or highly ranked, but they had the willingness and determination to play the way CAM teaches, and do it well. Just getting better (more highly ranked) players doesn't mean they are suited, willing, or even capable of conforming to that coaches system. I really don't know. The bottom line is that the players and coach must be in accord. There is reason for us to believe there is some type of disconnect with this team. Archie is in year 3, the buck stops with him and he must do whatever is necessary, be it lineup changes, demotions, or changes in how they play (I'm sure he knows all of this better than we do). As far as what fans say on message boards, my reaction is meh. It comes with the territory at any school or program. The larger and/passionate fanbases will have more of every type of poster - chronically negative ones in particular. It's important to always keep in mind that we have limited info, limited expertise, and plentiful opinions. As long as no one is throwing personal insults, it's fair game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IowaHoosierFan Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 49 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Because discussions like this only hurts the program if the recruits, players and families see these discussions. We just want to show that our fan base is not just represented by the loud vocal crowd who wants a change. And i don't think it does. See, we each have out own opinion on it and neither of them matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATX_sig Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 Archie has not had good PG play since he has been here. Thought Rob was the answer and he may be once he gets past the injury demons he is fighting. IMO, Franklin has surprised me and could provide PG minutes when Rob doesn't play. I think as those 2 improve the position the team will settle down with the erratic play. I am concerned that the perimeter part of the offense is so bad. While they may not have great shooters, I think they can shoot better than they have shown. Seems clear that the DNA of the team and what Archie wants to do is pound it inside but for once make a game plan and practice opening up the paint with perimeter shooting. He needs to shake something up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said: And i don't think it does. See, we each have out own opinion on it and neither of them matter True it does not matter but I still think players and recruits and families come here and see what is going on with IU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IowaHoosierFan Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, IU Scott said: True it does not matter but I still think players and recruits and families come here and see what is going on with IU And i think its 2020 and kids and parents are familiar with Social Media and internet forums. They are educated enough to ignore or take with a grain of salt. And there are literally ten of thousands of internet forums for every team in every sport. They all look and feel the exact same way as this one. We like to think we're special or something and honestly we're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbmhoosier Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: You have the contract in hand and read that off there, did ya? He's not going anywhere no matter how hard you click your ruby red slippers together... Well I am a lawyer and have drafted numerous contracts so I know a thing or two. Common sense would say any buyout is offset by whatever Archie would earn elsewhere. But you are right that this is Fred we are talking about and seems to only enter into contracts that are beneficial to the other side and not Indiana University. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuckerkorn Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 32 minutes ago, zerawkid said: Ya know, maybe. Here’s what I am not so sure about, I’m not sure I know precisely what coaches actually sell the high level, NBA-prospect level recruits on. Is the priority to come here and make the tourney? Is it to get maximum exposure (which, I guess the tourney appearances would help with)? Development? Academics? In essence, I know it’s gonna be different criteria for different recruits, and I don’t intend on minimizing the potential importance tourney berths have on the dialogue between a program and a recruit, but, is it the most vital thing often enough? People around here are talking about having no recruiting momentum with a team like this. Well, then, we haven’t been good, consistently good, for a long time, but we’ve still managed to recruit at a reasonably high level. In fact, without pulling data, I’ll bet we recruit beyond where programs with similarly positioned “success” are able to accomplish. Good points. Regarding recruiting, you have believe that CAM's approach is drastically different at IU than it was at UD. First off, he put the emphasis on "locking down the borders". Next, we assume he can attract higher rated players here because, well, IT'S INDIANA (lol). Perhaps he needs to focus more on players that fit and flourish in his system. If they're from Indiana great, but not a prerequisite. He may be doing just that with the current freshmen and the signed guys. He seems to have had some real misses with the 2018 class, but it was his first and assembled in rather limited time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said: Well I am a lawyer and have drafted numerous contracts so I know a thing or two. Common sense would say any buyout is offset by whatever Archie would earn elsewhere. But you are right that this is Fred we are talking about and seems to only enter into contracts that are beneficial to the other side and not Indiana University. Lol. I'm a lawyer too. I know a lot of lawyers without common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said: Well I am a lawyer and have drafted numerous contracts so I know a thing or two. 36 minutes ago, JugRox said: No, there is no offset in Miller’s contract. That was in Crean’s extension and he didn’t work the following year after getting fired so IU had to pay his buyout in full. Well, you didn't know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbmhoosier Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 minute ago, IUFLA said: Well, you didn't know that. Didn’t know what? That Freds a fool? That’s common knowledge at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 Indiana will pay $650,000 for Crean buyout | Hoosier Sports Report Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said: Didn’t know what? That Freds a fool? That’s common knowledge at this point. No, I posted a link to USA Today that showed coaches salaries and buyouts, to which you said, "isn't the buyout offset by whatever he earns elsewhere? So it really isn't a big deal." JugRox said, "There is no offset in Miller's contract." And your later statement of "Well I am a lawyer and have drafted numerous contracts so I know a thing or two." Again, apparently you didn't know that...and it IS a big deal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JugRox Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 9 minutes ago, milehiiu said: Indiana will pay $650,000 for Crean buyout | Hoosier Sports Report That’s was what IU paid Marquette to hire Crean. Not what they paid after they fired him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5 championships Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 For the record I’m not happy with how IU is playing right now but let’s discuss how this team can get better and what CAM needs to do for that to happen instead of discussing a ridiculous coaching change in year 3. Also for the record our seniors that Crean left us with:: Deron physically uncapable of playing.. Green ranked 197 in the composite... when that is your seniors that you are trying to win with in the BIG well good luck.. Our Juniors..Al was 237 In the composite and has turned into a nice role player... Smith was was 79... Brunk 106 I believe and first year with the program... That’s our UPPERClASSMAN we are trying to WIN with in the BIG... Crean didn’t necessarily leave the cabinet stocked. But let’s get rid of Archie for trying to win with that. *im not trying to throw shade at those players* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 25 minutes ago, JugRox said: That’s was what IU paid Marquette to hire Crean. Not what they paid after they fired him. You are correct. IU owed Coach Crean $4 million over time, less offsets. Dismissed IU Coach Tom Crean To Remain Highest Paid State Employee | news - Indiana Public Media Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchenry34 Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 I guess if we are sharing our opinions I'll give it a shot: I do believe that fans can impact the health of a program. I can think of more examples of that being toxic than I can of fans "taking control" and forcing changes that turned out well. The only two examples I can think of positively are UNC (firing Doherty) and UK (Firing Gillispie). In both cases there were actually larger issues than just underwhelming results. I am very concerned that the IU culture is completely eroded and that fans are part of that issue (to be sure, coaches are also responsible for establishing a culture). Talking about firing a coach two or three years in (let alone actually doing it) does impact who we would be able to hire. The fans also can impact the play of the current team. The tension surrounding the program will impact the players. Mistreatment of players on our team over the past twenty years has been an embarrassment. The number of times Sean Kline was booed by his own fans for missing a shot is the kind of toxicity that damages a team and a program and I think has even impacted the last two years. Finally, fans can and will have an impact on recruiting. Listen to the Mike Davis interview with Hoosier Hysterics, notice the Crean drop off in recruiting. In both cases the fact that fans were clamoring for the coach to be fired led to a self-fulfilling situation. Those coaches did get fired in large part because recruiting dropped way off. Recruiting dropped way off in part because of the fans and the subsequent ability of other programs to negatively recruit. There are not that many coaches who are head and shoulders above the rest. Many, like Roy Williams and Calipari, are extremely successful not because of their coaching acumen but because of their recruiting. The IU fans were a selling point for a long time in my life, now they are easily leveraged in negative recruiting. Am I disappointed in the play of the team over the past three weeks? Yes. Do I think that the coaching staff should shake things up? Yes. Do I wish that there was a more palpable identity and culture to this team, three years in? Yes. Do I think we are abundantly talented as a team and should never struggle? No. Do I think that the fans can help through criticism and personal attacks? No. I am 39 years old and for 25 years of that some segment of IU fans have been calling for the head coach to be fired. That includes Knight, moved on to Davis (he was absolutely mistreated...likely in part this was due to racism), Sampson (and probably rightly so), Crean, and now Miller. I think that 25 years of anger and angst and belligerence has taken its toll... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 i just don't think we have a chance to make the tourney this year. how many road B1G games do we really think we'll win? okay, then how many home ones do we really think we'll win at this point after struggling to beat NW? so far our "quality wins" are? FSU and that's it. two of our losses are to unranked Arkansas and Wisconsin. now if we do make it, that is different. i still say we don't and then why are we better next year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, mchenry34 said: I guess if we are sharing our opinions I'll give it a shot: I do believe that fans can impact the health of a program. I can think of more examples of that being toxic than I can of fans "taking control" and forcing changes that turned out well. The only two examples I can think of positively are UNC (firing Doherty) and UK (Firing Gillispie). In both cases there were actually larger issues than just underwhelming results. I am very concerned that the IU culture is completely eroded and that fans are part of that issue (to be sure, coaches are also responsible for establishing a culture). Talking about firing a coach two or three years in (let alone actually doing it) does impact who we would be able to hire. The fans also can impact the play of the current team. The tension surrounding the program will impact the players. Mistreatment of players on our team over the past twenty years has been an embarrassment. The number of times Sean Kline was booed by his own fans for missing a shot is the kind of toxicity that damages a team and a program and I think has even impacted the last two years. Finally, fans can and will have an impact on recruiting. Listen to the Mike Davis interview with Hoosier Hysterics, notice the Crean drop off in recruiting. In both cases the fact that fans were clamoring for the coach to be fired led to a self-fulfilling situation. Those coaches did get fired in large part because recruiting dropped way off. Recruiting dropped way off in part because of the fans and the subsequent ability of other programs to negatively recruit. There are not that many coaches who are head and shoulders above the rest. Many, like Roy Williams and Calipari, are extremely successful not because of their coaching acumen but because of their recruiting. The IU fans were a selling point for a long time in my life, now they are easily leveraged in negative recruiting. Am I disappointed in the play of the team over the past three weeks? Yes. Do I think that the coaching staff should shake things up? Yes. Do I wish that there was a more palpable identity and culture to this team, three years in? Yes. Do I think we are abundantly talented as a team and should never struggle? No. Do I think that the fans can help through criticism and personal attacks? No. I am 39 years old and for 25 years of that some segment of IU fans have been calling for the head coach to be fired. That includes Knight, moved on to Davis (he was absolutely mistreated...likely in part this was due to racism), Sampson (and probably rightly so), Crean, and now Miller. I think that 25 years of anger and angst and belligerence has taken its toll... Very good post and very true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 Just now, NCHoosier32 said: i just don't think we have a chance to make the tourney this year. how many road B1G games do we really think we'll win? okay, then how many home ones do we really think we'll win at this point after struggling to beat NW? so far our "quality wins" are? FSU and that's it. two of our losses are to unranked Arkansas and Wisconsin. now if we do make it, that is different. i still say we don't and then why are we better next year? the real question is how many road games will anyone besides MSU win this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 This thread is fruitless...have fun with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, rico said: This thread is fruitless...have fun with it. Kind of like a hairless wothless nut, oh a Buckeye so that means we win. Like the vibes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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