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Guard Play...is it fixable?


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11 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Your comment on Smith is more about shot selection, but whether Justin is an outside shooter are not, he's still taking them...and if he's going to take them mine was just a commentary on what I see as a basic flaw in technique.

I do agree that with Hunter there's an experience/confidence piece that will help. 

I remember reading an article about a great shooter (Ray Allen maybe?) that said he was in a slump. Turned out to be his off hand placement was a little off and it was skewing his shot. One little adjustment made a world of difference.

Never played at a high level but could shoot the ball very well and if I was missing,  a lot of it was floating to the left instead of coming straight back down.

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1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Another question for the board which I might have asked before are shooters made or born?  I think you can make bad shooters descent and average shooter to be good but I don't think you can make pure shooters.  I think you are born with the god given talent of touch and rhythm of your shot and to me you don't see many pure shooters nay longer.  I know Alford worked hard but to me no matter how hard you work if you weren't given that talent you won't ever be great.

I think it’s a solid combo of both ...it’s god given talent and inclination to muscle memory combined with work ethic ...it’s a talented/ given skill that requires not only learning via practice but also maintenance through continuous often routine based work 

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14 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I'll weigh in and say good shooting is like just about any other area of development -- it's both a natural talent and developed through practice. Body type, muscle structure/development, hand size, arm and hand length, etc. all play a factor in shooting, along with practice, repetition, and the player's confidence (just as at the free throw line).

You can have a guy like, say, Vince Carter, who came in the NBA as a monster leaper / dunker, wasn't a shooter, but after his knee injuries took away that extreme athleticism, he turned himself into a solid-to-good shooter. That's an extreme example. There are plenty of guys who just aren't going to be good shooters no matter how much time you put in (e.g., Shaq, etc.). Most are somewhere in the middle -- I could spend my life working on my shot, I'll never be a shooter like Reggie Miller. Lol.

And to the extent we're talking college kids, guys who developed their games up to college as slashers and dunkers, and not shooters, can develop shooting, but it's the rare guy who can re-craft his game into a good shooter from a slashing dunker.

Jason Kidd wasn't a good shooter...and by the end of his career he was a really solid 3 pt shooter...heck even Magic had developed a 3pt shot. Same with Michael Jordan and so on. Sure a guy like Shaq with his size etc there are limitations but I've seen enough guys become good shooters to know it can be done....so then the question is do we have enough time in college to develop it, are we doing the right things to teach it, to encourage it, spending enough time focused on it, bringing in guys that just are too far down on the curve to where they have to improve too much? Do we just don't care...is priority of shooting so low on the list of attributes in our recruits that we are willing to overlook that for other traits? I know Archie has tried to bring in a couple pure shooters but we have missed in their recruits (RJ Davis I think it was and Lester Q)….those misses really hurt...but does Archie need a more wholistic change in philosophy so that we aren't relying on one or two guys. Are we looking at shooting as just as important aspect to players games as their defense or athleticism across the board. Lots to consider...and I think lots for Archie to consider. I think he realizes it....like when he late in the recruiting cycle made a huge push for Lester Q...and why he brought in a grad transfer like Fitzner...and put so much emphasis on a shooting PF like Garcia.

34 minutes ago, Parakeet Jones said:

I said this in the game thread, and I'll say it again here.  Pick one of our assistants (not Roberts), get rid of him, and bring back the shot doctor, Tim Buckley.  I can't remember which one, but I saw a former player raving on twitter about how working with Buckley improved his shooting over the course of his time at IU.  Other former players liked the tweet so I assume they had similar experiences.  

See...now this is interesting. In an era where shooting is so valued do we have a guy like this...and if not why not?

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2 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Jason Kidd wasn't a good shooter...and by the end of his career he was a really solid 3 pt shooter...heck even Magic had developed a 3pt shot. Same with Michael Jordan and so on. Sure a guy like Shaq with his size etc there are limitations but I've seen enough guys become good shooters to know it can be done....so then the question is do we have enough time in college to develop it, are we doing the right things to teach it, to encourage it, spending enough time focused on it, bringing in guys that just are too far down on the curve to where they have to improve too much? Do we just don't care...is priority of shooting so low on the list of attributes in our recruits that we are willing to overlook that for other traits? I know Archie has tried to bring in a couple pure shooters but we have missed in their recruits (RJ Davis I think it was and Lester Q)….those misses really hurt...but does Archie need a more wholistic change in philosophy so that we aren't relying on one or two guys. Are we looking at shooting as just as important aspect to players games as their defense or athleticism across the board. Lots to consider...and I think lots for Archie to consider. I think he realizes it....like when he late in the recruiting cycle made a huge push for Lester Q...and why he brought in a grad transfer like Fitzner...and put so much emphasis on a shooting PF like Garcia.

See...now this is interesting. In an era where shooting is so valued do we have a guy like this...and if not why not?

The thing is that now coaches have less time they can practice in the season so the kids have to really work on shooting on their own.

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15 minutes ago, rico said:

Sometimes guys struggle going to the next level...it isn't rocket science.  Highly recruited guys fail even when they are the pick of the litter.  Seems like some blame it on recruiting, but in fact the recruits are fine, they just aren't living up to expectations.

Who was highly recruited though? Other than Phinisee maybe.  Armaan was a 3 star and I don't remember us battling anybody for Damezi.   Sure they may turn out good by year 3 or 4 but that wasn't my point.   CAM has missed on all of the highly recruited guards and that is what's baffling.

I will agree thay none are living up to expectations.  

Go Hoosiers!!!

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Well on the guard topic ...here is a whole different angle since we are on shooting at the moment ...shooting is NOT the only issue , decision making is as bad as I’ve seen ( not creating, forcing shots, turnovers, etc).....who here WOULDNT trade every guard on our roster for Aaron Thompson from butler ?  That kid can’t shoot at all and rarely turns one loose outside 10 ft ( primarily floaters).  The difference is he drives with a purpose and only scores the ball when his driving creates an opening and everywhere he takes the ball is with purpose to create for others ...he defends aggressively.  He wasn’t highly rated and he isn’t a shooter at all but if we had him or someone like him our team is instantly more dangerous.  Don’t get me wrong my preference is a guy that can hit open shots period but it’s not our only issue and we need to be able to win when shots aren’t falling 

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7 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Never played at a high level but could shoot the ball very well and if I was missing a lot of it was floating to the left instead of coming straight back down.

Same here...ended up playing a lot of ball in the service, both organized and recreational. Go to pretty much any military base and find the gym...some good competition and skilled players (funny, after a while I could almost tell you where a guy was from just by watching his game for a while)..

My flaw was the one I cited...I'd catch myself falling backward every so slightly and it screwed up my shot...

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5 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Never played at a high level but could shoot the ball very well and if I was missing a lot of it was floating to the left instead of coming straight back down.

Good mechanics and repetition and I think almost anyone can be a good shooter...and in your example...someone that has shot millions of jumpers would recognize they are fading left right etc and there mind would calculate the adjustment and then there arm etc would adjust the angle/trajectory. I mean James Harden/Steph Curry take awful shots in crazy positions but because of all the repetition and practice their brain can adjust on the fly. For a normal player like me or yourself it likely results in a miss...and especially for our guys. Thing is we are missing wide open shots...not contested or even high degree (relatively) of difficulty...which to me comes down to confidence more so then mechanics for the guys that have a history of shooting a decent percentage. Guys that shoot much less like Justin or our bigs sure mechanics/low repetition will definitely hurt them but our guards who have shot perhaps a million 3's in their life and hit say 35% their whole life and suddenly shooting 25%....it isn't their mechanics..they had the same mechanics when they shot better....it's something entirely different...and I hope we can get it back.

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3 minutes ago, IU/Butler/Notre Dame said:

Well on the guard topic ...here is a whole different angle since we are in shooting at the moment ...shooting is NOT the only issue , decision making is as bad as I’ve seen ( not creating, forcing shots, turnovers, etc).....who here WOULDNT trade every guard on our roster for Aaron Thompson from butler ?  That kid can’t shoot at all and rarely turns one loose outside 10 ft ( primarily floaters).  The difference is he drives with a purpose and only scores the ball when his driving creates an opening and everywhere he takes the ball is with purpose to create for others ...he defends aggressively.  He wasn’t highly rated and he isn’t a shooter at all but if we had him or someone like him our team is instantly more dangerous.  Don’t get me wrong my preference is a guy that can hit open shots period but it’s not our only issue and we need to be able to win when shots aren’t falling 

I said earlier this team needs a guard like Aaron Craft or TJ McConnell who brought toughness and some attitude.

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2 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Same here...ended up playing a lot of ball in the service, both organized and recreational. Go to pretty much any military base and find the gym...some good competition and skilled players (funny, after a while I could almost tell you where a guy was from just by watching his game for a while)..

My flaw was the one I cited...I'd catch myself falling backward every so slightly and it screwed up my shot...

I played for 18 years in a competitive church league, no joking.  There were some days no matter what I shot it was going in and really could not tell you why.  Then some days your body just don't feel right and no matter what you are not hitting those same shots.

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5 minutes ago, IU/Butler/Notre Dame said:

Well on the guard topic ...here is a whole different angle since we are in shooting at the moment ...shooting is NOT the only issue , decision making is as bad as I’ve seen ( not creating, forcing shots, turnovers, etc).....who here WOULDNT trade every guard on our roster for Aaron Thompson from butler ?  That kid can’t shoot at all and rarely turns one loose outside 10 ft ( primarily floaters).  The difference is he drives with a purpose and only scores the ball when his driving creates an opening and everywhere he takes the ball is with purpose to create for others ...he defends aggressively.  He wasn’t highly rated and he isn’t a shooter at all but if we had him or someone like him our team is instantly more dangerous.  Don’t get me wrong my preference is a guy that can hit open shots period but it’s not our only issue and we need to be able to win when shots aren’t falling 

I think Rob is that type of guard...and actually I think Rob can shoot the ball pretty well (I like his form). No reason his play should have dropped off a cliff from last year to this year because at one point last year...he was perhaps a top 5 pg in the league at both ends of the floor. Others have said though...the floor opens up and its much much easier to get into the lane and where you want when defenses aren't sagging off guys and constantly cutting you off or swiping at the ball while you are driving. Butler has some shooters..and thus the ball pressure on Aaron is much less than say what one of our guards would be when they drive. Shooting relieves a ton of pressure..it also causes teams to close out harder and get them out of position so you can take advantage and drive. Now Devonte...no doubt the young man is undisciplined and a lot of times out of control and it hurts...Al and Armaan at this point I just don't think they are true point guards and have been asked to learn and grow into that role...it's going to take time. So I agree I can't stand not valuing the ball...but to me it really does stem a lot from shooting. We did have a streak there of not playing hard and not concentrating which is inexcusable but I think Archie has their attention and they are focused...but to me...the woes are starting to point at one huge glaring weakness that is causing cracks in the other parts of the team.

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19 minutes ago, Indy1987 said:

Who was highly recruited though? Other than Phinisee maybe.  Armaan was a 3 star and I don't remember us battling anybody for Damezi.   Sure they may turn out good by year 3 or 4 but that wasn't my point.   CAM has missed on all of the highly recruited guards and that is what's baffling.

I will agree thay none are living up to expectations.  

Go Hoosiers!!!

You realize we haven't had a wing develop.  Do you realize what it could mean if Justin could knock down a 3?  Damezi?  Jerome?  Lot's of "pressure" off the guards.

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Guys, competitive church league (I'm biting my tongue), army base, basic level high school ball, YMCA etc. is absolutely nothing to shooting in a DI game, at the college speed, against DI athletes. You think Hunter couldn't shoot in high school???? If you do, you don't know anything you're trying to opine on. And yes, body type, the way you honed your game growing up, etc., matter. Think Smith hasn't worked on his shooting? Again if you do, you don't know what you're talking about. Smith is not a shooter. Playing him on the perimeter, unless he's creating plays through playing making and has refined his handle, is a mistake -- that's one area I fault CAM on. He could be really effective baseline back-door cutting, etc. Hunter can shoot. So can Demez. Demez isn't there yet at the DI college level, but yes, he can shoot. Hunter can shoot but it looks to be about his rhythm, timing and confidence, not his mechanics or his ability. Good grief, Reggie went through weeks, sometimes months of shooting badly, and that's when playing for the P's as a superstar. Hunter's shot will come back, and I'd bank on Demez's getting back as well.

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1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Guys, competitive church league (I'm biting my tongue), army base, basic level high school ball, YMCA etc. is absolutely nothing to shooting in a DI game, at the college speed, against DI athletes. You think Hunter couldn't shoot in high school???? If you do, you don't know anything you're trying to opine on. And yes, body type, the way you honed your game growing up, etc., matter. Think Smith hasn't worked on his shooting? Again if you do, you don't know what you're talking about. Smith is not a shooter. Playing him on the perimeter, unless he's creating plays through playing making and has refined his handle, is a mistake -- that's one area I fault CAM on. He could be really effective baseline back-door cutting, etc. Hunter can shoot. So can Demez. Demez isn't there yet at the DI college level, but yes, he can shoot. Hunter can shoot but it looks to be about his rhythm, timing and confidence, not his mechanics or his ability. Good grief, Reggie went through weeks, sometimes months of shooting badly, and that's when playing for the P's as a superstar. Hunter's shot will come back, and I'd bank on Demez's getting back as well.

A voice of reason.  Great post HH.

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9 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Guys, competitive church league (I'm biting my tongue), army base, basic level high school ball, YMCA etc. is absolutely nothing to shooting in a DI game, at the college speed, against DI athletes. You think Hunter couldn't shoot in high school???? If you do, you don't know anything you're trying to opine on. And yes, body type, the way you honed your game growing up, etc., matter. Think Smith hasn't worked on his shooting? Again if you do, you don't know what you're talking about. Smith is not a shooter. Playing him on the perimeter, unless he's creating plays through playing making and has refined his handle, is a mistake -- that's one area I fault CAM on. He could be really effective baseline back-door cutting, etc. Hunter can shoot. So can Demez. Demez isn't there yet at the DI college level, but yes, he can shoot. Hunter can shoot but it looks to be about his rhythm, timing and confidence, not his mechanics or his ability. Good grief, Reggie went through weeks, sometimes months of shooting badly, and that's when playing for the P's as a superstar. Hunter's shot will come back, and I'd bank on Demez's getting back as well.

Where did we say it was like playing college basketball because we did not.  What we were saying is that mechanics of you shot is important at any level you are playing at.  I also said that confidence is the most important thing to being a good shooter as well.

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6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Guys, competitive church league (I'm biting my tongue), army base, basic level high school ball, YMCA etc. is absolutely nothing to shooting in a DI game, at the college speed, against DI athletes. You think Hunter couldn't shoot in high school???? If you do, you don't know anything you're trying to opine on. And yes, body type, the way you honed your game growing up, etc., matter. Think Smith hasn't worked on his shooting? Again if you do, you don't know what you're talking about. Smith is not a shooter. Playing him on the perimeter, unless he's creating plays through playing making and has refined his handle, is a mistake -- that's one area I fault CAM on. He could be really effective baseline back-door cutting, etc. Hunter can shoot. So can Demez. Demez isn't there yet at the DI college level, but yes, he can shoot. Hunter can shoot but it looks to be about his rhythm, timing and confidence, not his mechanics or his ability. Good grief, Reggie went through weeks, sometimes months of shooting badly, and that's when playing for the P's as a superstar. Hunter's shot will come back, and I'd bank on Demez's getting back as well.

I don't think anyone was equating it one to one...I certainly wasn't...but shot mechanics do matter, no?

That was simply the point...

 

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9 minutes ago, Artesian_86 said:

I have a feeling that is the kind of player we'll see in Leal next year!!!

 

3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Galloway sounds like that as well but have not really saw him play a game, just highlights.

My only concern with these two...and I know they are working to improve...but Zach McRoberts played with toughness and showed heart and leadership. We've had lots of guards like that over the years...Jamal Meeks, Chris Reynolds, Dane Fife and so on...but this team still doesn't have an AJ Guyton, a Yogi Ferrell, an Eric Gordon, heck even a Bracey Wright lol much less a Greg Graham, Steve Alford, Isiah Thomas, or Jimmy Rayl.

Do we think either of those could be a Tom Coverdale or Damon Bailey (college version) because that is probably what this team needs the most...but even still we really don't have an offensive weapon/threat on the team and Tom and Damon could do everything but they still had some scorers around them.

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Just now, IU Scott said:

Where did we say it was like playing college basketball because we did not.  What we were saying is that mechanics of you shot is important at any level you are playing at.

I know 3 guys that have played D-1 basketball that are good friends of mine.  2 struggled...1 at Notre Dame, the other at Michigan St.  The one that excelled went to Wright St.  All fabulous shooters in HS and all 3 Indiana All-Stars.  I think that sums it up on my end.

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