IU Scott Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 6 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I don't think anyone was equating it one to one...I certainly wasn't...but shot mechanics do matter, no? That was simply the point... I think one of Smith's main problem is that he usually releases the ball on his way down and not going up through his shot. He has shown some flashes of good mechanics especially on thos 15 foot jumpers from the wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 13 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: Guys, competitive church league (I'm biting my tongue), army base, basic level high school ball, YMCA etc. is absolutely nothing to shooting in a DI game, at the college speed, against DI athletes. You think Hunter couldn't shoot in high school???? If you do, you don't know anything you're trying to opine on. And yes, body type, the way you honed your game growing up, etc., matter. Think Smith hasn't worked on his shooting? Again if you do, you don't know what you're talking about. Smith is not a shooter. Playing him on the perimeter, unless he's creating plays through playing making and has refined his handle, is a mistake -- that's one area I fault CAM on. He could be really effective baseline back-door cutting, etc. Hunter can shoot. So can Demez. Demez isn't there yet at the DI college level, but yes, he can shoot. Hunter can shoot but it looks to be about his rhythm, timing and confidence, not his mechanics or his ability. Good grief, Reggie went through weeks, sometimes months of shooting badly, and that's when playing for the P's as a superstar. Hunter's shot will come back, and I'd bank on Demez's getting back as well. And so the question remains...what will bring the shot back? We have seen this now for almost 3 years...it's weird EVERYONE on the team lost their shot. There has to be some factors because I agree they were good shooters in high school and I believe they can shoot at this level too. But Archie has some work to do to figure out how to tap into that potential. That or he needs kids that shoot at a much improved rate so when they fall into a slump they at least shoot the Mendoza line lol....we got guys going 0 fers out there man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, dgambill said: My only concern with these two...and I know they are working to improve...but Zach McRoberts played with toughness and showed heart and leadership. We've had lots of guards like that over the years...Jamal Meeks, Chris Reynolds, Dane Fife and so on...but this team still doesn't have an AJ Guyton, a Yogi Ferrell, an Eric Gordon, heck even a Bracey Wright lol much less a Greg Graham, Steve Alford, Isiah Thomas, or Jimmy Rayl. Do we think either of those could be a Tom Coverdale or Damon Bailey (college version) because that is probably what this team needs the most...but even still we really don't have an offensive weapon/threat on the team and Tom and Damon could do everything but they still had some scorers around them. I don't think the 2002 team had that kind of guard but Coverdale, fife and Hornsby were all those tough minded gritty players who were not great athletes. Maybe Geronimo will turn into that kind of player you are talking about and from the highlights he seems to be able to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, rico said: I know 3 guys that have played D-1 basketball that are good friends of mine. 2 struggled...1 at Notre Dame, the other at Michigan St. The one that excelled went to Wright St. All fabulous shooters in HS and all 3 Indiana All-Stars. I think that sums it up on my end. So you are saying if Archie takes this same team to Dayton they win their conference. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 Just now, dgambill said: So you are saying if Archie takes this same team to Dayton they win their conference. lol LOL...I am saying that some guys struggle with the transition to D-1 basketball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 minute ago, IU Scott said: I don't think the 2002 team had that kind of guard but Coverdale, fife and Hornsby were all those tough minded gritty players who were not great athletes. Maybe Geronimo will turn into that kind of player you are talking about and from the highlights he seems to be able to shoot. Yep..that was a special team...but Coverdale was what...top 3 in career 3's at IU? We don't have anyone close to Tom...he to me was almost a perfect mold of pt/assist/def...probably top 5 in steals/3's/assist in school history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 Just now, rico said: LOL...I am saying that some guys struggle with the transition to D-1 basketball. I kid I kid lol. I get it....but why ALL of Archie's kids struggling....and seemingly in that one area. I mean percentage wise that should mean we have a couple good shooters on this team lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 minute ago, dgambill said: I kid I kid lol. I get it....but why ALL of Archie's kids struggling....and seemingly in that one area. I mean percentage wise that should mean we have a couple good shooters on this team lol. For the reason I gave above. I am sure Dakich was a great shooter in HS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy1987 Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 26 minutes ago, rico said: You realize we haven't had a wing develop. Do you realize what it could mean if Justin could knock down a 3? Damezi? Jerome? Lot's of "pressure" off the guards. What does that have to do with Archie not being able to land a highly touted guard? I mean yea I agree with your statement but your changing the subject. Go Hoosiers!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunkinDipo Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 Lester Q could have really helped this year. Archie tried to recruit a guard who could shoot but it was too late in the game and we whiffed. I'm sure he will place a huge priority in landing a shooter next year and hopefully we won't come in second this time around. And if he doesn't then he should be fired. If you can't field a complete team with no glaring weaknesses (shooting) going into year 4 then you need to move on and that's the bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Indy1987 said: What does that have to do with Archie not being able to land a highly touted guard? I mean yea I agree with your statement but your changing the subject. Go Hoosiers!!! I haven't changed nothing...but you keep saying recruiting. I am saying these guys can shoot. They just ain't knocking them down. You have some vision of a 5* guard is gonna change everything. We had that last year. Didn't go as planned. You ought to see how the Bucknuts fans are talking about Carton. I could give plenty of examples. The bottom line is our shots ain't falling...but these guys know how to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 minute ago, rico said: For the reason I gave above. I am sure Dakich was a great shooter in HS! Hey your point is well taken...guess I'm just sad that Archie got all the kids that don't translate and the rest went to Butler or wherever. I suppose the whole point of recruiting is finding the ones that DO translate...which is why I'm much less concerned with kids rankings to whether their skills look like will fit at the B1G level. I trust Archie so I really feel our guys have it in them...which is why I am left searching for answers on how to improve the team and I'm sure he is too. Guess I am just being a Debbie downer. I really do think these kids have good potential but losing faith a little at a time Archie is going to bring it out of them....or right the ship down the road with the kind of kids that won't go through this too. I like the moxie of Leal and Galloway...so I hope they help this program moving forward. But that in lies the worry..I'm hoping and I guess I'm looking for that answer to walk in...a kid or two that's shooting/ability is so proven that we know it's a given they will shoot/play at least a respectable clip even if the higher competition brings it down some. Thanks for the discussion..sometimes it's just nice to get it off your chest and let it out and talk it through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotIThatLives Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 56 minutes ago, IU Scott said: I said earlier this team needs a guard like Aaron Craft or TJ McConnell who brought toughness and some attitude. I think that's actually a healthy phinisee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 7 minutes ago, Indy1987 said: What does that have to do with Archie not being able to land a highly touted guard? I mean yea I agree with your statement but your changing the subject. Go Hoosiers!!! Well...that's going to be my thread next week. Honestly...guard/wing....nobody seems to be developing...and it seems one issue lends itself to the other...but imo...basketball is controlled and run by guards. Everything begins with them and imo they can affect the game the most with their play...kind of the jumping off point. And in a state with a history of tons of impressive guards...and kids that have gone on to college success...is it we can't find our share...or that we are doing something that is not allowing ours to excel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 16 minutes ago, rico said: For the reason I gave above. I am sure Dakich was a great shooter in HS! Meaning shooting his mouth, then yes he is a great shooter LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 8 minutes ago, rico said: I haven't changed nothing...but you keep saying recruiting. I am saying these guys can shoot. They just ain't knocking them down. You have some vision of a 5* guard is gonna change everything. We had that last year. Didn't go as planned. You ought to see how the Bucknuts fans are talking about Carton. I could give plenty of examples. The bottom line is our shots ain't falling...but these guys know how to shoot. I think you are absolutely right...but I don't think it's just...whelp they didn't go in tonight but tomorrow they will. There is too large a sample size pointing to our struggles with shooting...some now 2 and 3 years with the same kids. So if I accept (which I do...but I see others on here that don't...they just think these kid's will never be good shooters) that then what is causing them to not shoot well...and this seems more systematic since its a pretty good trend pointing over the past two years that we have struggled to shoot. Sure we have rare instances of good shooting nights (Marquette and some others last year and FSU/OSU this year) but something or some reason we aren't living up to their potential. Guess I started this hoping to hit on some answers of what can be done to change the results...other than wait for the numbers to swing back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parakeet Jones Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Zuckerkorn said: Heck, I don't see why we couldn't use part of that huge recruiting budget to bring him on as a consultant. He (or anyone else) wouldn't recruit, sit on the bench or anything else within the scope of an assistant coach. I admit I don't have any idea what the rules would be, but if it's an available avenue it's worth pursuing. Great question on the legality of it. I know on the football side of things that Alabama has done this quite a bit. I remember reading that they at one time had a consultant who had no other responsibility other than tracking potential grad transfers for the following season. If there is no rule prohibiting it, I say we pursue something like this. My guess is though that there is or we'd probably hear of more schools doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuckerkorn Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, Parakeet Jones said: Great question on the legality of it. I know on the football side of things that Alabama has done this quite a bit. I remember reading that they at one time had a consultant who had no other responsibility other than tracking potential grad transfers for the following season. If there is no rule prohibiting it, I say we pursue something like this. My guess is though that there is or we'd probably hear of more schools doing it. Yea, I have no idea either. Didn't Knight bring in Pete Newell to talk with and/or work with one of our big guys? It may have been during the preseason or summer (if I'm even right that it happened). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU/Butler/Notre Dame Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 48 minutes ago, dgambill said: My only concern with these two...and I know they are working to improve...but Zach McRoberts played with toughness and showed heart and leadership. We've had lots of guards like that over the years...Jamal Meeks, Chris Reynolds, Dane Fife and so on...but this team still doesn't have an AJ Guyton, a Yogi Ferrell, an Eric Gordon, heck even a Bracey Wright lol much less a Greg Graham, Steve Alford, Isiah Thomas, or Jimmy Rayl. Do we think either of those could be a Tom Coverdale or Damon Bailey (college version) because that is probably what this team needs the most...but even still we really don't have an offensive weapon/threat on the team and Tom and Damon could do everything but they still had some scorers around them. I think Galloway could be fife like if he projects out ...it’s never an exact science line Rico said but I think that will be massively helpful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU/Butler/Notre Dame Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 hour ago, dgambill said: I think Rob is that type of guard...and actually I think Rob can shoot the ball pretty well (I like his form). No reason his play should have dropped off a cliff from last year to this year because at one point last year...he was perhaps a top 5 pg in the league at both ends of the floor. Others have said though...the floor opens up and its much much easier to get into the lane and where you want when defenses aren't sagging off guys and constantly cutting you off or swiping at the ball while you are driving. Butler has some shooters..and thus the ball pressure on Aaron is much less than say what one of our guards would be when they drive. Shooting relieves a ton of pressure..it also causes teams to close out harder and get them out of position so you can take advantage and drive. Now Devonte...no doubt the young man is undisciplined and a lot of times out of control and it hurts...Al and Armaan at this point I just don't think they are true point guards and have been asked to learn and grow into that role...it's going to take time. So I agree I can't stand not valuing the ball...but to me it really does stem a lot from shooting. We did have a streak there of not playing hard and not concentrating which is inexcusable but I think Archie has their attention and they are focused...but to me...the woes are starting to point at one huge glaring weakness that is causing cracks in the other parts of the team. Shooting opens lanes ...but we also have no one that looks interested in moving without the ball on drive whivh butler does very very well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 Another thing about good shooter sis that they are ready to shoot before they even receive the pass. You have to have good anticipation to look a pass or two ahead and know you are getting the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU/Butler/Notre Dame Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 47 minutes ago, IU Scott said: I don't think the 2002 team had that kind of guard but Coverdale, fife and Hornsby were all those tough minded gritty players who were not great athletes. Maybe Geronimo will turn into that kind of player you are talking about and from the highlights he seems to be able to shoot. We haven’t had a back court that good since and that includes yogi vic and Jordan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuckerkorn Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 hour ago, dgambill said: Good mechanics and repetition and I think almost anyone can be a good shooter...and in your example...someone that has shot millions of jumpers would recognize they are fading left right etc and there mind would calculate the adjustment and then there arm etc would adjust the angle/trajectory. I mean James Harden/Steph Curry take awful shots in crazy positions but because of all the repetition and practice their brain can adjust on the fly. For a normal player like me or yourself it likely results in a miss...and especially for our guys. Thing is we are missing wide open shots...not contested or even high degree (relatively) of difficulty...which to me comes down to confidence more so then mechanics for the guys that have a history of shooting a decent percentage. Guys that shoot much less like Justin or our bigs sure mechanics/low repetition will definitely hurt them but our guards who have shot perhaps a million 3's in their life and hit say 35% their whole life and suddenly shooting 25%....it isn't their mechanics..they had the same mechanics when they shot better....it's something entirely different...and I hope we can get it back. Mechanics and technique brings up something I wondered about for quite a time. I tend to believe that good form is valuable but not necessary. There have been plenty of good, even great, shooters with unusual form, and even bad shooters with a classic stroke. I think of Kitchel and Wittman as two guys with good form -forearm under the ball, vertical, and perpendicular to the floor. It may be that by the time a kid is finishing H.S., it's too late or risky to radically alter his shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU/Butler/Notre Dame Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 30 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said: I think that's actually a healthy phinisee He’s by far the best of the bunch in terms of being complete but I haven’t seen that kind of play and I hope you’re right that it’s because of health ....I think largely he has a lot of standing around from others on the floor on penetration and he is victim of sagged defenders so you could be right it just doesn’t jump off the screen to me ....Rutgers point guard jumped off the screen at me from a complete game standpoint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 hour ago, IU Scott said: Where did we say it was like playing college basketball because we did not. What we were saying is that mechanics of you shot is important at any level you are playing at. I also said that confidence is the most important thing to being a good shooter as well. Hunter's and Demez's mechanics are fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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