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Guard Play...is it fixable?


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2 hours ago, ATX_sig said:

The shooting .pct is pretty high when IU attempts to shoot themselves in the foot to put it nicely.  

I know Hunter is not a guard but you can almost feel he is about to break out.  Just make a couple and hopefully lookout.  Seems like after he missed a jump shot he gets tentative. Gotta be tough after sitting out a year from HS then playing in the B1G.  Surely his rhythm is way off.  With his length, I look forward to him shooting and making 3's over those packed in defenses. 

I agree with this. I feel like he just needs a couple of easy baskets to get him going. In high school he was really really good curling off a screen in the post to catch and hit a little turn around 12 footer. He has a great touch on that little turnaround and he gets it up and off quickly. I just don’t see us trying to get him looks where he is comfortable. Hit a couple open 10-15 footers and suddenly the rim opens up on those 3s. Same for Green and even Al. How we get those guys some confidence building looks is important. Also I think these guys need a little Crean coaching lol...just come down and fire it up. First good look in rhythm and don’t get on them for missing. Team just needs some positivity it feels like. Sure we aren’t ever going to be a team that is not going to have stretches of misses but at this point I just want guys not hesitating and stroking it confidently. I mean I see guys on other teams that feel no fear of dropping brick after brick to come back and knock the next down because they keep firing...our guys look like a dog that just got caught taking a poo in the house lol.

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3 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

We lack spacing. We lack lanes. Does he miss some open shots? Yep. Are we getting great looks all over the place? Of course not. However, Rob getting back helped a ton, against OSU. Not so much against Rutgers, but then they're very good defensively, please don't say guys are just missing shots. Rutgers' D had an impact.

Not on Damezi it didn't. I just went back to re-watch them all to make sure I remembered things correctly. His shots at 11:47, 10:48 and 10:01 could not have been more open: an 8 year old could have got his shot off with the amount of space he had. The one at 3:10 was still a very good shot, but they sort of closed out. We would be up in arms (and rightfully so) if our guys closed out as late as Rutgers did on that shot, but they at least closed out, on the first three they did nothing that could be called defending his shot. He just missed. 

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I don’t think the guard play is consistently fixed this season. I do like Rob and the long term potential of Franklin. I’m not a Green fan, too up and down to be counted on. Al would be a spark off the bench for a top 4 big ten team. and that’s the backcourt folks. Not much to work with this season. 

I definitely think the backcourt is fixable for next season though. I like the freshmen coming in, but we shouldn’t count on them to bring great shooting out of the gate. Archie needs to get a grad transfer guard who is a 40% plus shooter from deep over multiple season. Like a Ziesloft type player. Also, need another PG. when Rob is out the team seems to stall. If that’s Lander reclassifying, great. But someone to keep the to calm and help control the turnovers. 
 

Id also like to see more 3 guard lineups to help with spacing. But we don’t have the talent to do that this season. 

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6 minutes ago, Feathery said:

I don’t think the guard play is consistently fixed this season. I do like Rob and the long term potential of Franklin. I’m not a Green fan, too up and down to be counted on. Al would be a spark off the bench for a top 4 big ten team. and that’s the backcourt folks. Not much to work with this season. 

I definitely think the backcourt is fixable for next season though. I like the freshmen coming in, but we shouldn’t count on them to bring great shooting out of the gate. Archie needs to get a grad transfer guard who is a 40% plus shooter from deep over multiple season. Like a Ziesloft type player. Also, need another PG. when Rob is out the team seems to stall. If that’s Lander reclassifying, great. But someone to keep the to calm and help control the turnovers. 
 

Id also like to see more 3 guard lineups to help with spacing. But we don’t have the talent to do that this season. 

1. Have you gotten to see lander play any and  2. Is he considering reclassifying to 2020 ?

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How is it going to get better next year?  Greens gone - as much as we dog him he has won us a few games with his play (and probably lost us a few).  Al - cant see him getting a whole lot better.  Rob - should be better.  Franklin - should be better.  I dont know how a back court of Rob, Franklin, Al, and 2 x 100-120 ish rated freshman guards is going to be much better than this year.  Still no back up PG.  Still no shooting.  Still suspect decision making, though this is the likeliest aspect to improve significantly.  Maybe Hunter will be the x factor or one of the freshman will suprise.  It's just hard to see this getting better when there isn't much in the pipeline. 

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7 minutes ago, CincyHoosier said:

How is it going to get better next year?  Greens gone - as much as we dog him he has won us a few games with his play (and probably lost us a few).  Al - cant see him getting a whole lot better.  Rob - should be better.  Franklin - should be better.  I dont know how a back court of Rob, Franklin, Al, and 2 x 100-120 ish rated freshman guards is going to be much better than this year.  Still no back up PG.  Still no shooting.  Still suspect decision making, though this is the likeliest aspect to improve significantly.  Maybe Hunter will be the x factor or one of the freshman will suprise.  It's just hard to see this getting better when there isn't much in the pipeline. 

I’m not saying it will happen day 1 but the little I’ve seen of Galloway he may not be as athletic as our current roster but 1. He is a step in the right direction with basketball iq 2. He knows how to win 3. He’ll work to get better ....he’s the type that will try harder when the lights get bright 

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2 hours ago, HoosierDom said:

Not on Damezi it didn't. I just went back to re-watch them all to make sure I remembered things correctly. His shots at 11:47, 10:48 and 10:01 could not have been more open: an 8 year old could have got his shot off with the amount of space he had. The one at 3:10 was still a very good shot, but they sort of closed out. We would be up in arms (and rightfully so) if our guys closed out as late as Rutgers did on that shot, but they at least closed out, on the first three they did nothing that could be called defending his shot. He just missed. 

Newsflah sometimes shooters miss. The lengths you go to try to prove a guy can’t shoot. He came in with a well documented record as a shooter. He hasn’t gotten there yet in the college game. But don’t say he can’t shoot, seriously it’s just insulting. 

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15 minutes ago, hoosier_exotics said:

Big difference between "practice shooters" and "game shooters ". Unfortunately we are lacking the game version! You can tweak form all you want, but practice shooters in general dont have the mental toughness to be consistent in games. Especially under pressure 

Absolutely.  When the lights turn on, the fans are in the stands, and that ball goes up at the center circle...a lot of things change.

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10 hours ago, HoosierDom said:

Not on Damezi it didn't. I just went back to re-watch them all to make sure I remembered things correctly. His shots at 11:47, 10:48 and 10:01 could not have been more open: an 8 year old could have got his shot off with the amount of space he had. The one at 3:10 was still a very good shot, but they sort of closed out. We would be up in arms (and rightfully so) if our guys closed out as late as Rutgers did on that shot, but they at least closed out, on the first three they did nothing that could be called defending his shot. He just missed. 

 

7 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Newsflah sometimes shooters miss. The lengths you go to try to prove a guy can’t shoot. He came in with a well documented record as a shooter. He hasn’t gotten there yet in the college game. But don’t say he can’t shoot, seriously it’s just insulting. 

HH I love the back and forth, and the respectful debate, but I saw the same thing HoosierDom did. Went back on the DVR and both Damezi and Jerome had open shots that they simply missed.

The function of an offense is to get good shots, but if you can't hit them, you're not going to win. And the scary thing to me is that Rutgers not closing out on those two (or Smith for that matter) may have been intentional.

Jerome and Damezi have not proven that they're good shooters at this level...yet. They may (and dear God, I hope they do) eventually, but so far, no dice.

I'm including a screen shot of a jumper Jerome took off of an inbounds play with about 16 minutes to go in the 2nd half that demonstrates 2 things...how wide open he was (he missed), and what I was talking about when I said he leans back on his shot...

Again, not piling on, but stating the facts as I see them...

IMG_20200116_161713.jpg

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7 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Newsflah sometimes shooters miss. The lengths you go to try to prove a guy can’t shoot. He came in with a well documented record as a shooter. He hasn’t gotten there yet in the college game. But don’t say he can’t shoot, seriously it’s just insulting. 

I don’t think he’s personally attacking you or the Anderson kid I think he’s just making a casual observation and backing it up with examples.  I’m not tryin to pile on but not only is it noticeable watching the game the 8-42 stat line is enough of a sample size to be able to state a claim that at the college level the kid can’t shoot.  You indicated he has an established history of being a shooter but in his junior year at south bend Riley when his usage rate really jumped up he shot 35% behind the arc and 47% inside it.  He was playing pretty strong/ solid competition but at a listed 6’6 with his athleticism I would call those eye popping numbers especially get getting up 7 three point attempts per game over 150 for the season.  His senior year I can’t find stats for.  Now I’m not saying he was a bad shooter but I’m also not saying he was an amazing shooter.  There are many reasons why it might not translate to the next level and some main ones would be 1. Mental toughness/confidence  On a bigger stage  2. Better defense and quality of looks 3. Moving from just under 20ft to just under 21 ft distance as a freshman and from just under 21 to just over 22 as a sophomore 4. Mechanics.  So far the guy you think is attacking you has only pointed out his mechanics aren’t entirely traditional and that if you look at a sample of his shots,

Especially  recently that gives you a sample of wide open unguarded shots.  Not sure if one of the other things is the problem or not but you said it yourself it hasn’t translated yet at this level but after 1.5 years that unfortunately does make him a kid that can’t shoot well or consistently  at big ten level.  Hope he turns it around but I haven’t seen anything that gives me confidence it happens 

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14 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

 

HH I love the back and forth, and the respectful debate, but I saw the same thing HoosierDom did. Went back on the DVR and both Damezi and Jerome had open shots that they simply missed.

The function of an offense is to get good shots, but if you can't hit them, you're not going to win. And the scary thing to me is that Rutgers not closing out on those two (or Smith for that matter) may have been intentional.

Jerome and Damezi have not proven that they're good shooters at this level...yet. They may (and dear God, I hope they do) eventually, but so far, no dice.

I'm including a screen shot of a jumper Jerome took off of an inbounds play with about 16 minutes to go in the 2nd half that demonstrates 2 things...how wide open he was (he missed), and what I was talking about when I said he leans back on his shot...

Again, not piling on, but stating the facts as I see them...

IMG_20200116_161713.jpg

Good find on the screen shot we literally just posted almost the exact same thing it was my observation as well ...also interesting the shot you picked seems to be from closer to the old high school distance 

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Other things that I have noticed from our guards is, when they throw the ball into the post. A lot of times they just stand there.they don’t move to give the post player a good passing lane to kick it out to them if they choose to. 
I loved watching Jordon Halls he always moved to give the post player a passing lane to give him the ball. Then he was always ready for the pass and knock most of them down. Are quickly move the ball to an open player. 

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Watching Assembly Call last night and they had a stat that is hard to believe.  At home they are hitting 34% from 3 and the games away from AH they are hitting 20% from 3. % is ok but not great but to me the difference probably comes from confidence.  Also they looked back at stats from Dayton to see if Archie's teams there were bad shooters or to see if he can't developed shooters.  In 3 years his teams shot over 37% and were a little above average in attempts per game so it is not like that Archie has never emphasized the 3.  Also they looked at their key shooters in those years and all but 2 saw they averages increased from their freshman year to their senior year so it shows he can develop  shooters as well.

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9 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Newsflah sometimes shooters miss. The lengths you go to try to prove a guy can’t shoot. He came in with a well documented record as a shooter. He hasn’t gotten there yet in the college game. But don’t say he can’t shoot, seriously it’s just insulting. 

You in no way followed my point.

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54 minutes ago, Bob said:

Other things that I have noticed from our guards is, when they throw the ball into the post. A lot of times they just stand there.they don’t move to give the post player a good passing lane to kick it out to them if they choose to. 
I loved watching Jordon Halls he always moved to give the post player a passing lane to give him the ball. Then he was always ready for the pass and knock most of them down. Are quickly move the ball to an open player. 

Great point ...we move very little without the ball period at least not with a ton of effort 

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2 hours ago, IU/Butler/Notre Dame said:

Not sure if one of the other things is the problem or not but you said it yourself it hasn’t translated yet at this level but after 1.5 years that unfortunately does make him a kid that can’t shoot well or consistently  at big ten level.  Hope he turns it around but I haven’t seen anything that gives me confidence it happens 

Here we go again, with the misleading stuff. 1.5 years? He didn't play a single game and didn't practice last year. This is the kind of thing that drives me crazy, though frankly it's not worth the time in responding, because then, to try to make a point, people just move the goal posts. 

His "mechanics" are fine. They are, frankly clearly fine. I've been saying consistently that he isn't shooting, yet, at the college level -- in this his FIRST year after missing an entire season of both practice and games -- at the level he's freaking clearly capable of. Why I bother repeating myself, though, I don't know, it's just a waste of time. 

Here's one of the scouting reports on him coming into IU:

"Strengths:
He brings versatility to the floor from an offensive standpoint. Slender frame with terrific length along with good footwork once he enters the paint for a scoring opportunity. Hunter is most dangerous behind the arc and is especially dependable from a stationary position and a catch shoot scenario." http://insider.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/evaluation/_/id/216626/jerome-hunter

That's one of many actual scouting reports from analysts who actually watched him play and actually know what they're talking about. But I'm wasting my time again.

 

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One observation I've made, with Anderson in particular, is the guy shooting a three instinctively turning and running back to the defensive end.  On a couple of times that happened, the player taking the shot would have had a great opportunity for the rebound.

I can't say that I've seen it frequently, but it struck me as something someone expecting to miss might do.  Players with confidence often land and wait for the ball to hit the net.  On a related note we don't tend to follow our shot, but perhaps that's just part of the defense strategy.

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2 hours ago, IUFLA said:

 

HH I love the back and forth, and the respectful debate, but I saw the same thing HoosierDom did. Went back on the DVR and both Damezi and Jerome had open shots that they simply missed.

The function of an offense is to get good shots, but if you can't hit them, you're not going to win. And the scary thing to me is that Rutgers not closing out on those two (or Smith for that matter) may have been intentional.

Jerome and Damezi have not proven that they're good shooters at this level...yet. They may (and dear God, I hope they do) eventually, but so far, no dice.

I'm including a screen shot of a jumper Jerome took off of an inbounds play with about 16 minutes to go in the 2nd half that demonstrates 2 things...how wide open he was (he missed), and what I was talking about when I said he leans back on his shot...

Again, not piling on, but stating the facts as I see them...

IMG_20200116_161713.jpg

Also @Hoosierhoopster

I've been saying he fades back left since he hit 2 in a row early in the season.  Would also like to see a little more arch on the ball.  Hits back of rim hard quite often with no second chance.  Remember the height Jordy would get?  And every once in a while that sucker would pop out and go back in.  There is an article somewhere about the perfect angle for the 3 point shot.  

Concerning Demezi, as @IU Scott said, getting feet set is one.  Always seems rushed to me, though that's not mechanics, that's speed of the game, comfortability,  confidence.  Then there's the follow through.  Body twists left, not all the time but when He does watch how much his right leg winds up in front of his left.  The snap of the wrist follow through is inconsistent.  Sometimes it's pure and to and through the hoop, other times it's like a wave at the basket with no actual follow through the finger tips.  You know it's off for sure when he does this and usually off embarrassingly bad and hard.  

Still holding on to hope though.  Just thinking about if both theses guys get hot and shoot about 40% to finish out the season.  

The last time I played organized ball(adult) we had a mid season 3 point contest and my mechanics just got locked in from practice practice practice.  I told my teammates I'm going to win this contest the morning of and prior to I was just an average shooter.  But I was just locked in and making everything and the ones I missed, barely missed.  I finished out the season deadly from 3.  It stuck with me once I found it and the confidence exploded.  I think the same potential is there but they have to find it through work and then the comfort and confidence comes.  I clearly don't see either of them as comfortable and confident.  

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32 minutes ago, Zuckerkorn said:

One observation I've made, with Anderson in particular, is the guy shooting a three instinctively turning and running back to the defensive end.  On a couple of times that happened, the player taking the shot would have had a great opportunity for the rebound.

I can't say that I've seen it frequently, but it struck me as something someone expecting to miss might do.  Players with confidence often land and wait for the ball to hit the net.  On a related note we don't tend to follow our shot, but perhaps that's just part of the defense strategy.

I think you could just as easily argue that players expecting to make just go back and play defense. How many times has Steph Curry turned his back to go play D before the ball is anywhere near the rim? I don't think he expects to miss.

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4 minutes ago, HoosierDom said:

I think you could just as easily argue that players expecting to make just go back and play defense. How many times has Steph Curry turned his back to go play D before the ball is anywhere near the rim? I don't think he expects to miss.

But I think in Damezi's case it's more he knows Archie will chew his ass if he doesn't get back on D, rather than confidence it's going in...

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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

What's your observation on his "mechanics?" 

 

1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

Also @Hoosierhoopster

I've been saying he fades back left since he hit 2 in a row early in the season.  Would also like to see a little more arch on the ball.  Hits back of rim hard quite often with no second chance.  Remember the height Jordy would get?  And every once in a while that sucker would pop out and go back in.  There is an article somewhere about the perfect angle for the 3 point shot.  

Concerning Demezi, as @IU Scott said, getting feet set is one.  Always seems rushed to me, though that's not mechanics, that's speed of the game, comfortability,  confidence.  Then there's the follow through.  Body twists left, not all the time but when He does watch how much his right leg winds up in front of his left.  The snap of the wrist follow through is inconsistent.  Sometimes it's pure and to and through the hoop, other times it's like a wave at the basket with no actual follow through the finger tips.  You know it's off for sure when he does this and usually off embarrassingly bad and hard.  

Still holding on to hope though.  Just thinking about if both theses guys get hot and shoot about 40% to finish out the season.  

The last time I played organized ball(adult) we had a mid season 3 point contest and my mechanics just got locked in from practice practice practice.  I told my teammates I'm going to win this contest the morning of and prior to I was just an average shooter.  But I was just locked in and making everything and the ones I missed, barely missed.  I finished out the season deadly from 3.  It stuck with me once I found it and the confidence exploded.  I think the same potential is there but they have to find it through work and then the comfort and confidence comes.  I clearly don't see either of them as comfortable and confident.  

You can find things wrong with almost anyone’s shot ...I don’t think his mechanics are horrible I just don’t think they are perfect which makes it a fair topic to bring up when there are 4-6 major factors that could effect shooting you could bring up any of them when someone is 20% or less.  In addition to those observed by others that I quoted I’ve tried to watch as many of his shots as possible from his senior year and this season if I was jotting recruiting notes I would have listed the following : 1. He’s a right handed shooter who tends to favor the shooting hand  being centered with his Nose or even further left sometimes ( your traditional text book position would be centered to the right eye or even slightly right of that to be able to have the ball aligned to your likely dominant eye for aiming as well as leaving slight line with the rim from your non dominant eye unobstructed). 2. Point number one often also leads to his right elbow being further out than directly underneath the ball...his is not Severe but it exists.  3. He has a tendency especially on set shots inside the three point line of keeping a correct base width or just slightly wider but he pushes his knees in towards each other when going to jump for the shot ...if you mimick this movement you’ll notice your weight is forced to the inside of your feet and big toe rather than distributed evenly through both feet ...this could be because he doesn’t need to generate as much leg power for the shot at a closer distance but it’s a noticeable habit and could create difficultly with consistency in shot length 4.Perhaps the biggest hindrance I’ve seen to consistency for him is the height he generates for his jump shot ...watch his shots where he is coming of a curl or screen and those when he catches the ball on the move or takes a dribble into a shot ...he often elevates anywhere from 12-24 inches off the floor.  This is also normal because this shots might involve a necessary amount of sway or lean to avoid defenders and might require additional height to avoid a shot being blocked but it appears he does so even when not in danger of a tipped ball from a nearby defender.  If you watch his “ wide open “ shots he tends to, when set, only elevate 6-12 inches off the floor and has a quick release...while this seems nitpicky consistency is difficult to generate when any portion of your shot structure or formation varies.  If you’re shooting threes off a curl with 18 inches of elevation and then shorting them from a set position at 7-9 inches it’s not imposible to make the necessary corrections in arm mechanics to compensate but it does make it more complicated.

 

again ...as you aptly pointed out there are many players who have had extremely odd mechanics who are fantastic shooters so I’m not suggesting Anderson’s are horrific or something he can’t make work im just saying his form isn’t perfect and it’s fair for the one commenter who brought it up to make it a point of discussion if he’s shooting 20% or less as obviously there is SOME issue.  Hope the kid turns it around but as of now there is a big enough sample size to say that right now he’s not a good college 3pt shooter in a slump but a college player who’s not a good 3pt shooter working to find his range 

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