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2023 NFL Discussion


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8 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Which will he be remembered for?

Losing Super Bowl III?

Coaching the only undefeated/untied champion in NFL history?

I'd definitely say coaching the only undefeated champion. When people think of Super Bowl III, I don't think many immediately think of Don Shula losing. Most go to Joe Namath's guarantee, and I think that is what that game is most remembered for. 

A lot of people probably don't even know Shula was the coach that lost that game. 

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29 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I'd definitely say coaching the only undefeated champion. When people think of Super Bowl III, I don't think many immediately think of Don Shula losing. Most go to Joe Namath's guarantee, and I think that is what that game is most remembered for. 

A lot of people probably don't even know Shula was the coach that lost that game. 

Maybe a lot of younger people...but the big story in that game wasn't the guarantee at all...

It was the fact that the AFL was seen by some as a minor league, not even on par with the NFL, buttressed by the thrashing the Packers had given the Chiefs and Raiders in SB I and II.

The Colts (13-1 and thought to be superior to those Packer teams) were 17 1/2 point favorites in that game. The Jets victory was not only the biggest upset in sports history at that time, but also substantiated the fact AFL teams WERE on par with the NFL teams.

The guarantee certainly cemented Namath's legacy, but the big story leading in was how big the blowout was going to be...

Many NFL people held it against Shula for years...

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40 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Maybe a lot of younger people...but the big story in that game wasn't the guarantee at all...

It was the fact that the AFL was seen by some as a minor league, not even on par with the NFL, buttressed by the thrashing the Packers had given the Chiefs and Raiders in SB I and II.

The Colts (13-1 and thought to be superior to those Packer teams) were 17 1/2 point favorites in that game. The Jets victory was not only the biggest upset in sports history at that time, but also substantiated the fact AFL teams WERE on par with the NFL teams.

The guarantee certainly cemented Namath's legacy, but the big story leading in was how big the blowout was going to be...

Many NFL people held it against Shula for years...

Appreciate the background. I knew some of that but not all, so it's really interesting. I think though coming back to the initial question on what Shula will be remembered for most, is still the Dolphins/going undefeated. 

While Super Bowl III might have been more about all of the great background you shared at the time, what it's most remembered for now is Joe Namath and the guarantee. I think when most people speak about that game now in 2020, the first things that gets mentioned are Joe Namath, the guarantee and that it was a huge upset, and while Shula is tied to the upset I don't think it's known as "The Shula Game" or anything. 

Maybe the answer to your initial question is split along age lines, but I still think the vast majority will remember Shula for his time with the Dolphins and going undefeated. I'm 41, so certainly not young by any means, but I also wasn't around for Super Bowl III, and I remember being surprised when I was a kid and found out that Shula ever coached the Colts. 

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9 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Appreciate the background. I knew some of that but not all, so it's really interesting. I think though coming back to the initial question on what Shula will be remembered for most, is still the Dolphins/going undefeated. 

While Super Bowl III might have been more about all of the great background you shared at the time, what it's most remembered for now is Joe Namath and the guarantee. I think when most people speak about that game now in 2020, the first things that gets mentioned are Joe Namath, the guarantee and that it was a huge upset, and while Shula is tied to the upset I don't think it's known as "The Shula Game" or anything. 

Maybe the answer to your initial question is split along age lines, but I still think the vast majority will remember Shula for his time with the Dolphins and going undefeated. I'm 41, so certainly not young by any means, but I also wasn't around for Super Bowl III, and I remember being surprised when I was a kid and found out that Shula ever coached the Colts. 

You may be right. Dredged up this WaPo article written the day after the game...

Not a mention of the guarantee at all.

But subsequent media coverage of the game (the 2 part "A Football Life" on Joe Namath for one) does focus on the guarantee more than the titanic upset. So, your point about age and perspective is well taken.

I remember watching the NFL Championship that year between the Colts and a pretty good Cleveland Browns team (that had dealt the Colts their only regular season loss that year). 34-0 Colts. Wasn't even a game. Also watched a great AFL Championship with the Jets taking out a great Raiders team 27-24 I think. But I came away thinking there was absolutely no way the Jets would even stay close to the Colts. 

It's still one of, if not THE biggest upset in sports history, rivaled only by the USA/USSR Olympic hockey game and Buster Douglas knocking out Mike Tyson.

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Kind of a side note to this Shula discussion...

IF the Colts had beaten the Jets, Shula probably would have never left for Miami. Colts owner Carroll Rosenbloom was so pissed about SB III he basically forced Shula out as the Colts head coach.

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I am almost 63 so I was around and watched Super Bowl III. 

I don't remember so much the hype leading into the game about the Colts being favored so much. I am sure that was a major story line leading up to the game, though. I wonder if the reason many/most remember that game as the Namath guarantee game is because the media today focuses so much on that when they look back on that game and, frankly, there is nothing else in Namath's career as memorable as that guarantee, and how he backed it up with his play in that game.

On the other hand, Shula's career high point absolutely was the undefeated season. Again, the media plays that up every year when the remaining living players get together to celebrate once the last undefeated team loses their first game. 

For an NFL historian, Shula's team losing when such overwhelming favorites might be his defining moment. But imo, for the average football fan the undefeated season is his claim to fame.

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2 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

I am almost 63 so I was around and watched Super Bowl III. 

I don't remember so much the hype leading into the game about the Colts being favored so much. I am sure that was a major story line leading up to the game, though. I wonder if the reason many/most remember that game as the Namath guarantee game is because the media today focuses so much on that when they look back on that game and, frankly, there is nothing else in Namath's career as memorable as that guarantee, and how he backed it up with his play in that game.

On the other hand, Shula's career high point absolutely was the undefeated season. Again, the media plays that up every year when the remaining living players get together to celebrate once the last undefeated team loses their first game. 

For an NFL historian, Shula's team losing when such overwhelming favorites might be his defining moment. But imo, for the average football fan the undefeated season is his claim to fame.

Joe Namath is in my opinion the most overrated player to ever grace the HoF.  

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1 hour ago, Steubenhoosier said:

I am almost 63 so I was around and watched Super Bowl III. 

I don't remember so much the hype leading into the game about the Colts being favored so much. I am sure that was a major story line leading up to the game, though. I wonder if the reason many/most remember that game as the Namath guarantee game is because the media today focuses so much on that when they look back on that game and, frankly, there is nothing else in Namath's career as memorable as that guarantee, and how he backed it up with his play in that game.

On the other hand, Shula's career high point absolutely was the undefeated season. Again, the media plays that up every year when the remaining living players get together to celebrate once the last undefeated team loses their first game. 

For an NFL historian, Shula's team losing when such overwhelming favorites might be his defining moment. But imo, for the average football fan the undefeated season is his claim to fame.

Namath had a good game in SB III (17/28/0/0) not great. I always thought Matt Snell should have been the MVP (30 carries 120 yards and the only Jets TD). The Jets won with one of the oldest recipes for winning football there is...great defense (4 turnovers) and a running game.

1 hour ago, rico said:

Joe Namath is in my opinion the most overrated player to ever grace the HoF.  

We'll, I'm a little torn on that. He was the first QB to throw for over 4,000 yards in a season, and the only QB I've ever seen that had anywhere near his quick release and arm was Marino. Plus, the burden of those knees...

He wasn't a talentless hack (and I know you weren't saying that) but he only completed 50% of his passes, and threw more INTs than TDs. 

But, he did QB his team to victory in one of the two most important games in NFL/AFL history (the other being the 1958 NFL Championship that put pro football on the map).

He played in NY...

And he was a cultural icon...

I know those last two shouldn't factor in, but they do...

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RIP to the Don, a central sports figure of my youth.  

Some good parallels between Shula and Knight.   Give them any roster and one way or another they will win games.  The two last great undefeated teams in sports helmed by these two.  Extremely competitive, couldn’t handle losing.  Shula went to six Super Bowls with three different roster cores.  He didn’t rely on one QB or core of players.  He had only two losing seasons in 33 years.  Like Knight, Shula’s players talk about how tough he was but they loved him.   Marino, Csonka, Warfield, Griese, on and on, they loved him.   

My Mount Rushmore of NFL coaches would be Lombardi, Shula, Belichick and Bill Walsh. 

Time marches on.  

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38 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Namath had a good game in SB III (17/28/0/0) not great. I always thought Matt Snell should have been the MVP (30 carries 120 yards and the only Jets TD). The Jets won with one of the oldest recipes for winning football there is...great defense (4 turnovers) and a running game.

We'll, I'm a little torn on that. He was the first QB to throw for over 4,000 yards in a season, and the only QB I've ever seen that had anywhere near his quick release and arm was Marino. Plus, the burden of those knees...

He wasn't a talentless hack (and I know you weren't saying that) but he only completed 50% of his passes, and threw more INTs than TDs. 

But, he did QB his team to victory in one of the two most important games in NFL/AFL history (the other being the 1958 NFL Championship that put pro football on the map).

He played in NY...

And he was a cultural icon...

I know those last two shouldn't factor in, but they do...

You forgot to mention that, to my knowledge, he’s the only pro football player ever to appear in pantyhose 🤓

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6 hours ago, BGleas said:

I'd definitely say coaching the only undefeated champion. When people think of Super Bowl III, I don't think many immediately think of Don Shula losing. Most go to Joe Namath's guarantee, and I think that is what that game is most remembered for. 

A lot of people probably don't even know Shula was the coach that lost that game. 

In addition of being the only coach who went undefeated. Shula still holds the record for the most NFL wins.  Currently his son is the QB for the Denver Broncos.

And though I never went there.  I always wanted to go to a Shula Steakhouse.

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NFL Schedules coming out Thursday. Will be interesting to see how each teams schedules look and what the NFL might be thinking. For example...Bears draw AFC South this year. If you see a schedule for Bears that starts with 2 home and 2 away vs those teams...it could signal the NFL is ok with either suspending, delaying or not having those games at all. Meaning they would rather out of conference games be the ones eliminated and not vs own division, conference opponents. 

Second thing is this. No secret the NFL has long wanted the Super Bowl on President's Day Weekend Sunday...so it would get the national holiday and obviously the Monday following SB off. I think the NFL privately has no problem delaying start of season by 2-3 weeks.

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8 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

NFL Schedules coming out Thursday. Will be interesting to see how each teams schedules look and what the NFL might be thinking. For example...Bears draw AFC South this year. If you see a schedule for Bears that starts with 2 home and 2 away vs those teams...it could signal the NFL is ok with either suspending, delaying or not having those games at all. Meaning they would rather out of conference games be the ones eliminated and not vs own division, conference opponents. 

Second thing is this. No secret the NFL has long wanted the Super Bowl on President's Day Weekend Sunday...so it would get the national holiday and obviously the Monday following SB off. I think the NFL privately has no problem delaying start of season by 2-3 weeks.

Id cry I'd be so happy 

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