2023 NFL Discussion

[5fouls]

Tom Brady and Drew Brees, who started against each other yesterday, have more combined TD passed than 7 franchises.  Some, are understandable since the franchises are fairly young.  But, the Bengals?  Come on.  They go back to 1968.

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by 5fouls

[KoB2011]

57 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Tom Brady and Drew Brees, who started against each other yesterday, have more combined TD passed than 7 franchises.  Some, are understandable since the franchises are fairly young.  But, the Bengals?  Come on.  They go back to 1968.

 

Oh wow. The Seahawks and Bucs go back to the 70s. All three of those are surprising. 

[BGleas]

6 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm not sold on him. I know he has a lot of talent, but between the injuries and some of the inconsistency something about him just seems off to me. 

I’m a pretty big supporter. I think part of any negative feelings around Wentz nationally come because Foles gets so much pub for the Super Bowl year, but people forget that Wentz was running away with the MVP that year through week 13 when he got hurt, and that was just his second year. 

There’s this misconception that Foles carried that team to a Super Bowl. The Eagles were the best team in football with Wentz that year as the presumptive MVP before the injury. Foles was actually average, to actually bad, up until the 2nd half of the NFC conference game and then he was of course great in the Super Bowl.

The next year Wentz was average, as he was coming off the knee injury, which is to be expected. Then last season he carried a pathetic receiving corp to a division title. I believe last year he was the first QB to have a 4,000 yard season while not having a single 500 yard receiver. 

By the end of the year last year the Eagles top 3 receivers were all injured and their leading receiver was a practice squad guy who was a QB in college. It was really amazing what he did last year  

As an Eagles fan, my opinion is that he’s a top 5 ish QB when healthy and with moderate weapons. While I was frustrated yesterday, and a Wentz was not good, we have to remember by the end of the game he was missing like 5 offensive lineman and it was the first game with no preseason. 

[KoB2011]

8 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I’m a pretty big supporter. I think part of any negative feelings around Wentz nationally come because Foles gets so much pub for the Super Bowl year, but people forget that Wentz was running away with the MVP that year through week 13 when he got hurt, and that was just his second year. 

There’s this misconception that Foles carried that team to a Super Bowl. The Eagles were the best team in football with Wentz that year as the presumptive MVP before the injury. Foles was actually average, to actually bad, up until the 2nd half of the NFC conference game and then he was of course great in the Super Bowl.

The next year Wentz was average, as he was coming off the knee injury, which is to be expected. Then last season he carried a pathetic receiving corp to a division title. I believe last year he was the first QB to have a 4,000 yard season while not having a single 500 yard receiver. 

By the end of the year last year the Eagles top 3 receivers were all injured and their leading receiver was a practice squad guy who was a QB in college. It was really amazing what he did last year  

As an Eagles fan, my opinion is that he’s a top 5 ish QB when healthy and with moderate weapons. While I was frustrated yesterday, and a Wentz was not good, we have to remember by the end of the game he was missing like 5 offensive lineman and it was the first game with no preseason. 

I do remember how good he was his second year, he was amazing!

But I also think you could argue that's an anomaly that happened under an offensive coorindator who is no longer there. Sure, the Eagles won their division last year, but it was the worst division in football and they were 9-7. 

I understand the injuries to all their wide receivers are a big factor, but he also has always had a good defense, good line, and great tight ends. I'd be hard pressed to put him in my top ten, let alone top five at this point. 

That's not to say he isn't a good, talented player that is still young; but something just seems to be missing with him IMO. 

[BGleas]

2 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I do remember how good he was his second year, he was amazing!

But I also think you could argue that's an anomaly that happened under an offensive coorindator who is no longer there. Sure, the Eagles won their division last year, but it was the worst division in football and they were 9-7. 

I understand the injuries to all their wide receivers are a big factor, but he also has always had a good defense, good line, and great tight ends. I'd be hard pressed to put him in my top ten, let alone top five at this point. 

That's not to say he isn't a good, talented player that is still young; but something just seems to be missing with him IMO. 

Last year wasn’t just the receivers injured, the last several weeks he was also missing the right side of his offensive line (pro bowlers Brandon Brooks and Lane Johnson). 

Regardless of how bad the division was, I don’t think there are too many QB’s in the NFL carrying their team to a division title while missing two pro bowl offensive linemen and their entire starting wide receiver corp. 

I'm not saying he’s on Aaron Rogers level, but look at all of the excuses people make for him (no receivers, no running game, etc.), yet Wentz carried the Eagles to the playoffs with Greg Ward his best receiver and Boston Scott his best back, while missing two pro bowl offensive linemen  

It really was amazing what he did last season, especially the second half of the season.  

I’d look at him like:

2016: Strong rookie year

2017: MVP level 2nd season

2018: Average at best season maybe below average (caveat though that he was recovering from a late season destruction of his knee)

2019: Above average season perception wise (pretty excellent if you paid attention to their massive injury issues)

Obviously he’s not on Patrick Mahomes level, nobody is, and guys like Brady and Brees are kind of in their own little historic but on their way out category, Aaron Rogers is still in his prime, but after that he’s in that next tier of guys. 

But he’s in that next tier. There’s nothing a guy like DeShaun Watson has done in the NFL that Wentz hasn’t. If he hadn’t gotten hurt, he’d have an MVP like Jackson. He’s clearly better than Prescott (Dak is way overrated). 

Edit: I do agree though, Wentz needs a couple injury free seasons where he levels up he’s consistency a bit. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by BGleas

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Last year wasn’t just the receivers injured, the last several weeks he was also missing the right side of his offensive line (pro bowlers Brandon Brooks and Lane Johnson). 

Regardless of how bad the division was, I don’t think there are too many QB’s in the NFL carrying their team to a division title while missing two pro bowl offensive linemen and their entire starting wide receiver corp. 

I'm not saying he’s on Aaron Rogers level, but look at all of the excuses people make for him (no receivers, no running game, etc.), yet Wentz carried the Eagles to the playoffs with Greg Ward his best receiver and Boston Scott his best back, while missing two pro bowl offensive linemen  

It really was amazing what he did last season, especially the second half of the season.  

I’d look at him like:

2016: Strong rookie year

2017: MVP level 2nd season

2018: Average at best season maybe below average (caveat though that he was recovering from a late season destruction of his knee)

2019: Above average season perception wise (pretty excellent if you paid attention to their massive injury issues)

Obviously he’s not on Patrick Mahomes level, nobody is, and guys like Brady and Brees are kind of in their own little historic but on their way out category, Aaron Rogers is still in his prime, but after that he’s in that next tier of guys. 

But he’s in that next tier. There’s nothing a guy like DeShaun Watson has done in the NFL that Wentz hasn’t. If he hadn’t gotten hurt, he’d have an MVP like Jackson. He’s clearly better than Prescott (Dak is way overrated). 

Edit: I do agree though, Wentz needs a couple injury free seasons where he levels up he’s consistency a bit. 

That's all fair points, but it results to a lot of reasons why a guy in his fifth season has yet to really prove much. You can't make excuses for injuries but ignore how good the team around him was in his one and only elite level; Jared Goff looked pretty good one year in a similar situation. 

I really don't think anyone outside of an Eagles fan would put Wentz on the level of anyone you mentioned aside from Dak. 

In no order, an I complete list of guys I'd take over him in the year 2020:

Mahomes

Brady

Brees

Ryan

Jackson

Wilson

Murray

Watson

Big Ben

Rodgers

 

Guys I think he is grouped with that all, including Wentz could move up to the next group:

Dak

Cousins

Stafford

Allen

Newton

Garapolo

 

Then there is a handful of guys I think that could catch Wentz that are either young or have shown talent but are in better situations now a la Carr, Goff, Tannehill, and some rookie and second year guys. 

I guess what I'm saying is that while he's got game, in today's NFL I think he's pretty average. 

[IU Scott]

Just watching the NFL and teams just don't throw the ball down the field very often.   Just don't see many passed travel more than 20 yards down field.

[KoB2011]

10 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Just watching the NFL and teams just don't throw the ball down the field very often.   Just don't see many passed travel more than 20 yards down field.

Let me guess.... the league was better in the 70s when Terry Bradshaw was throwing as many interceptions as touchdowns, because he threw the ball downfield? 

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

Let me guess.... the league was better in the 70s when Terry Bradshaw was throwing as many interceptions as touchdowns, because he threw the ball downfield? 

Did  I say that

[Seeking6]

Word out of Chicago is Allen Robinson has reached his boiling point about extension or lack of one. Demanding a trade from the Bears. 

I usually try to see both sides. Cap is coming down next year and Bears can tag him for 1-2 years.....but ARob has been a trooper and is probably a top 5-7 WR who deserves a raise and an extension.

[TheWatShot]

16 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Just watching the NFL and teams just don't throw the ball down the field very often.   Just don't see many passed travel more than 20 yards down field.

There are a lot of bad QB's in the NFL. They'd be even worse if so many rules hadn't been slanted toward offenses. 

[IU Scott]

Just a little more entertaining watching passed down field instead of just dinkin and dunkin down the field.  Mishnew was 19-20 but o ly had 173 yards so that is not a great yards per completion.

[Billingsley99]

1 hour ago, Seeking6 said:

Word out of Chicago is Allen Robinson has reached his boiling point about extension or lack of one. Demanding a trade from the Bears. 

I usually try to see both sides. Cap is coming down next year and Bears can tag him for 1-2 years.....but ARob has been a trooper and is probably a top 5-7 WR who deserves a raise and an extension.

An NFL guy on the JMV show said Robinson from high school on has never had a good QB to fully showcase his ability 

[Seeking6]

7 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

An NFL guy on the JMV show said Robinson from high school on has never had a good QB to fully showcase his ability 

No surprise there. From Jacksonville to Mitch. I'm a fan of his. Not sure if this is the best way to go about it but I can tell you the fans love him. Just would love being a fan of a NFL team where we could go 7 days without something. 

[IU Scott]

Looks like the ratings for both Monday night games last night really tanked.  The first game ratings are down 21 percent from last year.  The second game was down 38 percent from last year.

[rico]

On 9/15/2020 at 12:17 AM, IU Scott said:

Just watching the NFL and teams just don't throw the ball down the field very often.   Just don't see many passed travel more than 20 yards down field.

Scott, I think you got selective memory going on.  The rules favor the offense, and in particular the passing aspect.

[IU Scott]

4 hours ago, rico said:

Scott, I think you got selective memory going on.  The rules favor the offense, and in particular the passing aspect.

I know they do but you still don't see offenses throwing the ball down field over 20 yards that often.

[5fouls]

Quarterbacks rarely get time to look down the field any longer.  Defensive pressure on the QB is much more significant than it was in the 1980s.

[KoB2011]

13 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I know they do but you still don't see offenses throwing the ball down field over 20 yards that often.

Part of that has to do with how offensive schemes have changed. You want as many offensive play makers as you can on the field, so you inherently have less guys blocking which means less time to drop back. 

Another part of that is the type of athletes rushing the QB in today's NFL. Some of the best athletes in the world are now rushing the QB, and every team has guys like that. That wasn't true 40 years ago. 

[rico]

10 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Quarterbacks rarely get time to look down the field any longer.  Defensive pressure on the QB is much more significant than it was in the 1980s.

Yep, that pocket collapses very quickly.

[rico]

3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Part of that has to do with how offensive schemes have changed. You want as many offensive play makers as you can on the field, so you inherently have less guys blocking which means less time to drop back. 

Another part of that is the type of athletes rushing the QB in today's NFL. Some of the best athletes in the world are now rushing the QB, and every team has guys like that. That wasn't true 40 years ago. 

40 years ago...running the ball was king.  And defenses were built to stop it.

[KoB2011]

36 minutes ago, rico said:

40 years ago...running the ball was king.  And defenses were built to stop it.

100%, it's just a different game. 

[jv1972iu]

2 hours ago, rico said:

40 years ago...running the ball was king.  And defenses were built to stop it.

Oh yeah...the Packers running sweeps with Kramer, Gregg...leading for Taylor, Hornung.  Jim Brown running for Cleveland... Gayle Sayers for "da Bears".   Great backs everywhere.   😁

[IUFLA]

3 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Quarterbacks rarely get time to look down the field any longer.  Defensive pressure on the QB is much more significant than it was in the 1980s.

The 85 Bears and Lawrence Taylor beg to differ...

Edited September 16, 2020 by IUFLA

[FritzIam4IU]

6 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

The 85 Bears and Lawrence Taylor beg to differ...