btownqb Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 minute ago, dgambill said: 🤷♂️ This year it was honestly probably 4-5 games we needed him to really step up and play a bigger role in carrying the team over the top. I think Carson had pretty mixed results. When the running game was working and the defense was causing turnovers he seemed to play quite well. However, when we were getting behind the sticks and falling behind in games...and the pressure was on for him to create offense...he was probably not enough. Will another year in the organization and offense and with this team and a true offseason to work help him step up in enough of those moments to win our division...that is the million dollar question. He has the physical tools...it's between the ears. We probably do need to get him some more help. Brady/Rodgers he is not. He is not going to overcome roster deficiencies...does he need a loaded roster at the skill positions to win us our division....I don't think so....he probably is missing that complementary receiver to Pittman to really honestly say he has enough weapons. That said...the guy has a top 5 OL and the best running back in all of football....how much more does he need to have and how much more can we afford to give him before we say someone else could do more with less? At this point a lot was invested in both coach and qb. I think we all agree we need to see better results....I'm fine with giving them one more year to evaluate them both fully. While I doubt we actively search for a qb replacement, of course if we get word through channels that Russ or Rodgers is interested in coming....then all bets are off. If that OL is top 5, and I agree it is, we should be getting way, way more in return for how well they are compensated, in pass pro. They didn't perform anywhere close to a top 5 OL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 22 hours ago, BGleas said: The 49ers are playing well too, if they mess around and win a playoff game or two Jimmy G might not be going anywhere. I know people are in love with Trey Lance, but that team is built to win now and there's a reason they preferred throwing an injured Garrappolo out there Sunday vs a healthy Lance. Garrappolo is basically on a 1 yr non-guaranteed contract. I imagine they bring him back unless they get a significant offer (similar to Eagles with Wentz). Reason being the rookie hasn't really shown he is ready to win now (the team is ready to win now) and the fact that he will easily fetch a high compensatory pick if he walks after next year (so he isn't leaving for nothing regardless). The only way I see him going for anything less then such a package is if Aaron Rodgers wants to go West Coast and they need to move his salary...even still they likely land a 2nd for him. No doubt a team like Denver/Carolina/Houston will be very interested! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 4 minutes ago, btownqb said: If that OL is top 5, and I agree it is, we should be getting way, way more in return for how well they are compensated, in pass pro. They didn't perform anywhere close to a top 5 OL. I look around the league and I see few OLs giving much better pass protection. It's definitely a top 5 at running the ball...but to me it's on Reich and Wentz in the passing game. Sure I'd love a brick wall up there but overall they performed pretty good in pass protection. Top 10 in sacks allowed. Don't get me wrong it wasn't as good the last couple weeks as it had been for the most part....but I'd say between weeks 4 and 16 when our OL was basically healthy it was one of the best in the league. Now we won a lot of games during that time...but that is what I mean...when things aren't at it's best...when we maybe can't run the ball as well as we like...or our defense isn't playing it's best..or the OL is facing a stiff test...can Carson overcome it and rise above. More often than not I'd say no....but again...he has the talent...and I want to give this move every opportunity to succeed...so I'm ok with another year of evaluation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 18 hours ago, btownqb said: Which the bottom is why some of us are fine with letting it ride... it worked for Michigan this year. We'll see. I don't truly think we're out anything by giving it a shot. I 100% trust Irsay and Ballard, though. I think we hold tight too....but it isn't without risk. NFL....means NOT FOR LONG....meaning you won't be around very long if you don't have results. The risk is Ballard/Reich etc could all be out of a job if they end up outside looking in again next year. Does it mean they make big sweeping changes...no...but there is definitely a risk with doing nothing. Consistency might be exactly what this team needs...tweak around the edges...but in the end they will evaluate top to bottom and if the QB needs to go....they won't hesitate to do that if it's the right thing to do. More of the same (outside looking in on the playoffs next year) with as much talent as this team has...probably should cost some people their jobs.....and not just Carson Wentz....Ballard included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 14 minutes ago, dgambill said: I look around the league and I see few OLs giving much better pass protection. It's definitely a top 5 at running the ball...but to me it's on Reich and Wentz in the passing game. Sure I'd love a brick wall up there but overall they performed pretty good in pass protection. Top 10 in sacks allowed. Don't get me wrong it wasn't as good the last couple weeks as it had been for the most part....but I'd say between weeks 4 and 16 when our OL was basically healthy it was one of the best in the league. Now we won a lot of games during that time...but that is what I mean...when things aren't at it's best...when we maybe can't run the ball as well as we like...or our defense isn't playing it's best..or the OL is facing a stiff test...can Carson overcome it and rise above. More often than not I'd say no....but again...he has the talent...and I want to give this move every opportunity to succeed...so I'm ok with another year of evaluation. They were in the bottom third. Nelson in the 20s, Kelly in the 30s. Not good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 4 hours ago, KoB2011 said: Understood on all those points, but I don't think you target the guys at the bottom of the list. That is your fallback if you strike out on those first three names. The bottom of the list, sans maybe Winston, aren't long term options but I really don't think Wentz is either, it's just filling in a potentially slightly worse stop gap if you can't get THE GUY this off season. EDIT: I'll add we don't really know how any of these guys fit until we see it on the field. I doubt anyone thought Tannehill was a long term option in Nashville when he signed there as a backup, but he just fits what they do on offense. You aren't letting Carson Wentz walk without an upgrade. To me it will be up to Ballard but there are probably only 2 or 3 guys realistically even on the market that you can say are upgrades. Rest are locked into their teams. It's not like we are going to cut Wentz and THEN go look for a qb and if nothing comes up we HAVE to sign Andy Dalton. If we don't land a big dog (very likely) then you keep Wentz....a lateral move is likely a step back because now you have broken any contentuity in the offense and have to relearn a whole new system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, btownqb said: They were in the bottom third. Nelson in the 20s, Kelly in the 30s. Not good. They were 10th best in sacks. I know there are a lot of analytics involved in PFF grades...for sure...and some are much easier to measure (skill position) then others...I don't put all my eggs in evaluating my OL in just PFF. You can give up a lot of sacks and pressures if your qb is slow to release or get the ball out...or you run a lot of long developing plays. Not OL fault that WR/TE can't seperate and get open and my qb holds the ball. I know what the rankings say....and they had some bad moments for sure...but overall...my eyes tell me they are a top 5 rush OL and no worse than a top half in pass protection...if not a top 10. But some think I have bad judgement...so that's just me. Edited January 12, 2022 by dgambill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 2 hours ago, FritzIam4IU said: Denver once again is set to make a big QB splash in my opinion. They have good ammo to trade for one and good cap space to sign one. With Peyton already showing how successful someone can be going there....going to be hard to pass them up given their current roster construction for a veteran qb. If I was Rodgers or Russ or even Matt Ryan etc...I'd be working my agent hard to get me there....Mahomes/Hebert be damned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 6 minutes ago, dgambill said: They were 10th best in sacks. I know there are a lot of analytics involved in PFF grades...for sure...and some are much easier to measure (skill position) then others...I don't put all my eggs in evaluating my OL in just PFF. You can give up a lot of sacks and pressures if your qb is slow to release or get the ball out...or you run a lot of long developing plays. Not OL fault that WR/TE can't seperate and get open and my qb holds the ball. I know what the rankings say....and they had some bad moments for sure...but overall...my eyes tell me they are a top 5 rush OL and no worse than a top half in pass protection...if not a top 10. But some think I have bad judgement...so that's just me. I didn't watch much of the Colts this season, so can't really comment on it. But as an Eagles fan, I can say that about half of Wentz's sacks in previous years were his own fault. He's not good at making his reads quickly, he holds onto the ball too long, and often tries to extend plays that just aren't there. Again, I don't know if those were issues in Indy, but they definitely were in Philadelphia. I'm sure they have analytics that account for that, but to the naked eye it often made the pass protection look worse than it really was. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, BGleas said: I didn't watch much of the Colts this season, so can't really comment on it. But as an Eagles fan, I can say that about half of Wentz's sacks in previous years were his own fault. He's not good at making his reads quickly, he holds onto the ball too long, and often tries to extend plays that just aren't there. Again, I don't know if those were issues in Indy, but they definitely were in Philadelphia. I'm sure they have analytics that account for that, but to the naked eye it often made the pass protection look worse than it really was. It was mentioned several times on last Sunday's broadcast that he was holding onto the ball too long. Problem has been rectified. Not that it's the end all/be all, but for a guy who scored a 40 on his Wonderlich test, you'd think he'd have better processing skills. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 On DD show they was talking would you trade Nelson and Leonard for Russell Wilson 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, btownqb said: I don't either. Pryor gave up 5 pressures to the 109th ranked DE in the league. The pass protection was one of the worst in the NFL, and by the amount we pay them, it was incredibly bad. Everyone is saying our output in the passing game isn't enough, ok then, lets correct the problem(s) and stop being lazy and blaming one freaking player. Fisher sucked, Nelson sucked, Kelly sucked, last two games Braden Smith sucked. Again, for what they are paid. Atrocious production. Dulin and Pascal were two of the worst rated WRs in the league. If you want to fix the problem, fix the damn problem, blaming one flipping person is absurd though. This isn't tennis or swimming, it's the ultimate team sport. It wasn't the problem with nearly the exact same roster under an ancient Phillip Rivers....basically same receiving core and OL. Now it is possible it played worse this year but entirely possible that the biggest reason for the issue is the one factor WE DID CHANGE....the QB. Now, is it more feasible to change out all those positions and make sweeping roster changes or do we just change the one position that we changed last year before we had pass protection issues? I pray and hope that Wentz and Reich can work through it...and I hope we make some tweaks in the receiving core...but I don't think we are going to see significant OL improvements....it's going to be on Reich and Wentz to do more with what they have. If Rivers could help us win 11 games and get us in the post-season and had few issues behind the OL last year (mostly because of how fast he got rid of the ball)....then maybe the guy we brought in to replace him is a bigger reason for the decline then we want to admit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 5 minutes ago, IU Scott said: On DD show they was talking would you trade Nelson and Leonard for Russell Wilson Sadly that is not how NFL trades work. Seattle isn't moving on from Wilson without another qb in place or draft capital to replace him. So it's kind of a moot point...the question doesn't really matter because in no such scenario would Seattle do that trade. It's a bad hypothetical. In a vaccum there is basically nobody on our roster you wouldn't trade for a proven franchise qb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said: It was mentioned several times on last Sunday's broadcast that he was holding onto the ball too long. Problem has been rectified. Not that it's the end all/be all, but for a guy who scored a 40 on his Wonderlich test, you'd think he'd have better processing skills. He does. He absolutely has to get better. Truth is Wentz is more Ben Rothlisberger than Tom Brady...and we all know that..and we would need to understand he is never going to get to the point he is in the top of the league at qb in how fast he gets the ball out. He needs to improve....how do we do that. Well he himself has to get better...but we also then need to help him make faster decisions by simplifying things for him....ie via route combos and/or more talent at the receiver corp that will win quicker and get open more. It will just come down to can we afford to upgrade those positions to the point to get him to play at a high level or do we find a qb instead that can process things quicker and pay more $$/draft capital for the qb to work with what we have. Edited January 12, 2022 by dgambill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 Just now, dgambill said: It wasn't the problem with nearly the exact same roster under an ancient Phillip Rivers....basically same receiving core and OL. Now it is possible it played worse this year but entirely possible that the biggest reason for the issue is the one factor WE DID CHANGE....the QB. Now, is it more feasible to change out all those positions and make sweeping roster changes or do we just change the one position that we changed last year before we had pass protection issues? I pray and hope that Wentz and Reich can work through it...and I hope we make some tweaks in the receiving core...but I don't think we are going to see significant OL improvements....it's going to be on Reich and Wentz to do more with what they have. If Rivers could help us win 11 games and get us in the post-season and had few issues behind the OL last year (mostly because of how fast he got rid of the ball)....then maybe the guy we brought in to replace him is a bigger reason for the decline then we want to admit. So the OL performed as well for Wentz as it did Rivers? That would be an incredibly tough sell. Did Andrew Luck hold onto the ball too long? or was it like it was with Wentz, zero people open and poor blocking? I've mentioned Wentz needs to play better, to give up 20 pressures on 28 dropbacks against Oakland, plus we already know the WR core is one of the worst 5 in the NFL.... and we auto blame the QB. Ok, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 minute ago, btownqb said: So the OL performed as well for Wentz as it did Rivers? That would be an incredibly tough sell. Did Andrew Luck hold onto the ball too long? or was it like it was with Wentz, zero people open and poor blocking? I've mentioned Wentz needs to play better, to give up 20 pressures on 28 dropbacks against Oakland, plus we already know the WR core is one of the worst 5 in the NFL.... and we auto blame the QB. Ok, then. Hey man...I am with you that we bring him back...but the QB to me is very much part of the issue....in my mind the OL is the least of my worries. It just comes down to Reich and Wentz speeding up the decision making and how much for us to upgrade the receiving core that will help make those throws come out faster for Wentz. If we can't upgrade the wr core then Wentz needs to learn to fight another day. If no one is open throw it away then. He didn't have a ton of turnovers...but the ones he had were soul crushing though. I'm hoping another full offseason and some improvements on the outside will be enough. I mean we aren't going to be able to go out and land Tampa Bay's receiving core...or Minnesota's or Cincy's....but he is going to have to make do with something middle of the pack...and if he can't...we will have to find another QB...because Ballard doesn't put a lot of $$$ into building his teams via those skill positions. I think he would just as soon go and get an affordable game manager qb and run the ball and play defense then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 25 minutes ago, IU Scott said: On DD show they was talking would you trade Nelson and Leonard for Russell Wilson I could see one but not both...problem is I just don't think Indy is the stage Wilson wants. Time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 Just now, dgambill said: Hey man...I am with you that we bring him back...but the QB to me is very much part of the issue....in my mind the OL is the least of my worries. It just comes down to Reich and Wentz speeding up the decision making and how much for us to upgrade the receiving core that will help make those throws come out faster for Wentz. If we can't upgrade the wr core then Wentz needs to learn to fight another day. If no one is open throw it away then. He didn't have a ton of turnovers...but the ones he had were soul crushing though. I'm hoping another full offseason and some improvements on the outside will be enough. I mean we aren't going to be able to go out and land Tampa Bay's receiving core...or Minnesota's or Cincy's....but he is going to have to make do with something middle of the pack...and if he can't...we will have to find another QB...because Ballard doesn't put a lot of $$$ into building his teams via those skill positions. I think he would just as soon go and get an affordable game manager qb and run the ball and play defense then. Of course he is part of the issue, but I knew Carson Wentz wasn't good against pressure when he got here. I've seen that. What I haven't seen is our OL get manhandled, ever. You can say it's because they're holding onto the ball too long, but it's not. Or it certainly wasn't the last two games, because those are the only two games we've spoke about all week, anyways. Learning to fight another day and not giving up pressure are two different things. I 100% agree he needs to cut out the JAX fumble antics, but uh..... did you notice what happened FIRST on that play? There was no real reason to find another WR... until now. We weren't middle of the pack either, though. We were the 3 legged dog humping itself along to stay up with the pack, in regards to WR play. Look I don't expect the OL deficiencies to continue, but if they do, might as well dump Wentz now lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 I guess Jeff Saturday is saying the Colts need to move on from Wentz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, IU Scott said: I guess Jeff Saturday is saying the Colts need to move on from Wentz The only people that are in the Wentz camp share a last name and/or reside mostly on this board. Funny thing is I'm one of them....because while I would love an upgrade I don't see one being available/affordable for us. I've not seen many Wentz supporters out there on the Colts forums or NFL circles. It was a wildly unpopular trade when it happened...and was widely panned in the media. The people that supported it were big Reich supporters and trusted him to fix Wentz....well he got better at least...just not good enough. I'm counting he can at least become good enough with another year....otherwise I too say dump him. Edited January 12, 2022 by dgambill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 Expected points added from passing during the Reich era…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, dgambill said: The only people that are in the Wentz camp share a last name and/or reside mostly on this board. Funny thing is I'm one of them....because while I would love an upgrade I don't see one being available/affordable for us. I've not seen many Wentz supporters out there on the Colts forums or NFL circles. It was a wildly unpopular trade when it happened...and was widely panned in the media. The people that supported it were big Reich supporters and trusted him to fix Wentz....well he got better at least...just not good enough. I'm counting he can at least become good enough with another year....otherwise I too say dump him. To your point, the deal is that there is not a realistically clear upgrade available. So, if you make a lateral move at best you don't really remove the issues and you add one by having a 4th different QB in 4 years. Sometimes continuity is the better, or at least testing to see if continuity is the better option when there isn't a clear upgrade available. As @btownqb has said, clean up some of the issues around him and then maybe you get a better Wentz. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: Expected points added from passing during the Reich era…. Not sure I understand this graph...but the fact that Wentz line basically mirrors Brissetts probably isn't good it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 hour ago, dgambill said: You aren't letting Carson Wentz walk without an upgrade. To me it will be up to Ballard but there are probably only 2 or 3 guys realistically even on the market that you can say are upgrades. Rest are locked into their teams. It's not like we are going to cut Wentz and THEN go look for a qb and if nothing comes up we HAVE to sign Andy Dalton. If we don't land a big dog (very likely) then you keep Wentz....a lateral move is likely a step back because now you have broken any contentuity in the offense and have to relearn a whole new system. See I disagree, Wentz isn't worth not having the chance to go get a better guy over. You probably can't go get the better guy if you have Wentz under contract, because you are paying him his full salary. You could get the other team to take him on if you trade for an upgrade, but then you're having to give up even more like the Rams did to send Goff off and we frankly don't have the draft capital to pay someone to take Wentz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, BGleas said: To your point, the deal is that there is not a realistically clear upgrade available. So, if you make a lateral move at best you don't really remove the issues and you add one by having a 4th different QB in 4 years. Sometimes continuity is the better, or at least testing to see if continuity is the better option when there isn't a clear upgrade available. As @btownqb has said, clean up some of the issues around him and then maybe you get a better Wentz. Yep...I'm for that as well...as I don't see a better alternative....I just think we are going to have to upgrade our receiving corp quite a bit if we want to get playoff caliber football out of Carson Wentz. I've felt Wentz ceiling is very Ben Rothlisberger like....but let's be real...Ben has had some of the best receiving corps the NFL has seen over the years. We would really have to hit big in the draft and FA to put together a corp like he has enjoyed...and I think that is a long shot. Edited January 12, 2022 by dgambill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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