Around the B1G/NCAA

[Billingsley99]

11 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

The product is the basketball team. I think Salesforce builds a hell of a product, I don't much care for their CEO. It's two separate things. 

The product is the program,  the identity, if all we care about is wins then we should stoop to the UK level and just pay players.  I would rather have a team full of pros than the issues that KS allowed. 

I have been to practices for 30 plus college coaches and only at a practice of KS did I get a contact high.

[Billingsley99]

11 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

The product is the basketball team. I think Salesforce builds a hell of a product, I don't much care for their CEO. It's two separate things. 

I agree if the "product" is tangible. I did not say the team was not a very good basketball playing team. As you know IU basketball is on a whole different level than Salesforce. In no way shape or form are you comparing Apples to apples.

[IUFLA]

12 hours ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

Only game of interest is Wisconsin tonight and they are a 36 point favorite. 

I looked in on this game last night...69-32 at the half...Talk about the Christians vs The Lions...

I hope the fact that I immediately changed the channel says something about my humanitarian side

[rico]

3 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I looked in on this game last night...69-32 at the half...Talk about the Christians vs The Lions...

I hope the fact that I immediately changed the channel says something about my humanitarian side

Kentucky played Duke again last night?  LOL

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, rico said:

Kentucky played Duke again last night?  LOL

I'm sure he'd love to pad the record 

[rico]

Some good stuff in this write-up...

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2018/12/13/film-room-why-is-jahvon-quinerly-struggling-to-get-minutes-for-villanova/

[KoB2011]

35 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

I agree if the "product" is tangible. I did not say the team was not a very good basketball playing team. As you know IU basketball is on a whole different level than Salesforce. In no way shape or form are you comparing Apples to apples.

I'm sorry... What? Salesforce is a multi national, multi billion dollar organization. It is on a SIGNIFICANTLY higher level than what IU basketball operates at. But that's irrelevant to the point. 

There is a tangible product with IU basketball.... It's the team that we put on the floor. My love for Indiana University goes FAR beyond our basketball team, and I didn't enjoy a lot of the "stuff" with that team as such. But the product was great. 

I'll also say this.... I would rather my child play for Kelvin Sampson than Bob Knight ten times out of ten. So whatever "stuff" there was with Sampson that took away from the the product on the court, there was worse stuff with Knight. I'll take failing grades and weed over abuse all day. 

[Billingsley99]

16 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm sorry... What? Salesforce is a multi national, multi billion dollar organization. It is on a SIGNIFICANTLY higher level than what IU basketball operates at. But that's irrelevant to the point. 

There is a tangible product with IU basketball.... It's the team that we put on the floor. My love for Indiana University goes FAR beyond our basketball team, and I didn't enjoy a lot of the "stuff" with that team as such. But the product was great. 

I'll also say this.... I would rather my child play for Kelvin Sampson than Bob Knight ten times out of ten. So whatever "stuff" there was with Sampson that took away from the the product on the court, there was worse stuff with Knight. I'll take failing grades and weed over abuse all day. 

I will make this short. Right or wrong many people live and breath IU basketball and you cannot compare a company regardless of size to what the program means it its fanbase.  Maybe there are thousands of people that spend big chunks of time on the Salesforce fan pages but I do not think it's an equal comparison. 

Who you choose to have your son play for is up to you but I saw first hand the culture of what each coach created and I would be damned to allow my son to play for KS.

BK was a  lot of things and no need to go into them. The majority of his formers players have had successful lives after. I dont care enough about KS to know about all his former players but can we say the same? IDK

[rico]

Aside from Knight's abuse issues, he also had issues with weed on the team as well as some other problems.  

[Seeking6]

14 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm sorry... What? Salesforce is a multi national, multi billion dollar organization. It is on a SIGNIFICANTLY higher level than what IU basketball operates at. But that's irrelevant to the point. 

There is a tangible product with IU basketball.... It's the team that we put on the floor. My love for Indiana University goes FAR beyond our basketball team, and I didn't enjoy a lot of the "stuff" with that team as such. But the product was great. 

I'll also say this.... I would rather my child play for Kelvin Sampson than Bob Knight ten times out of ten. So whatever "stuff" there was with Sampson that took away from the the product on the court, there was worse stuff with Knight. I'll take failing grades and weed over abuse all day. 

To each their own. Good to know where you stand. You would prefer your kids to be mentored by Kelvin Sampson for 4 years over Bob Knight. Interesting. 

[Billingsley99]

17 minutes ago, rico said:

Aside from Knight's abuse issues, he also had issues with weed on the team as well as some other problems.  

All teams have issues with it. Those players for BK also knew what happens when u get caught. With KS it was being done in 5he facility no one hid it.

IT left his girlfriend stranded on side of the road with a flat tire and ran to Assembly hall to not be late. I saw a "player come to practice 45 minutes late hi as a kite drunk off his butt and one of the assistants took him to sober him up because it was the almost time to get on the bus to leave for a road game.

[Billingsley99]

35 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm sorry... What? Salesforce is a multi national, multi billion dollar organization. It is on a SIGNIFICANTLY higher level than what IU basketball operates at. But that's irrelevant to the point. 

There is a tangible product with IU basketball.... It's the team that we put on the floor. My love for Indiana University goes FAR beyond our basketball team, and I didn't enjoy a lot of the "stuff" with that team as such. But the product was great. 

I'll also say this.... I would rather my child play for Kelvin Sampson than Bob Knight ten times out of ten. So whatever "stuff" there was with Sampson that took away from the the product on the court, there was worse stuff with Knight. I'll take failing grades and weed over abuse all day. 

The product was not great. The talent yes. For the first time ever I was flat out embarrassed to be a fan. That is part of the product 

[rico]

16 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

To each their own. Good to know where you stand. You would prefer your kids to be mentored by Kelvin Sampson for 4 years over Bob Knight. Interesting. 

Bob Knight all day and everyday.

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, Billingsley99 said:

The product is the program,  the identity, if all we care about is wins then we should stoop to the UK level and just pay players.  I would rather have a team full of pros than the issues that KS allowed. 

I have been to practices for 30 plus college coaches and only at a practice of KS did I get a contact high.

I am with you because I would rather lose all the games than have players like we had on that team.  I love winning but not at any cost and I have pride in Indiana and want kids representing the university to be great citizens as well.

[Billingsley99]

10 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I am with you because I would rather lose all the games than have players like we had on that team.  I love winning but not at any cost and I have pride in Indiana and want kids representing the university to be great citizens as well.

Completely agree. I dont need a team of boy scouts but I never ever want the culture at IU to be what it was with Sampson.

[5fouls]

49 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm sorry... What? Salesforce is a multi national, multi billion dollar organization. It is on a SIGNIFICANTLY higher level than what IU basketball operates at. But that's irrelevant to the point. 

There is a tangible product with IU basketball.... It's the team that we put on the floor. My love for Indiana University goes FAR beyond our basketball team, and I didn't enjoy a lot of the "stuff" with that team as such. But the product was great. 

I'll also say this.... I would rather my child play for Kelvin Sampson than Bob Knight ten times out of ten. So whatever "stuff" there was with Sampson that took away from the the product on the court, there was worse stuff with Knight. I'll take failing grades and weed over abuse all day. 

For much of Bob Knight's tenure, his actions were not considered abuse.  Times change, but a historical figure has to be judged based on the era. Some of the great military leaders of the past would not be viewed in the same way today either.

[IUFLA]

9 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

For much of Bob Knight's tenure, his actions were not considered abuse.  Times change, but a historical figure has to be judged based on the era. Some of the great military leaders of the past would not be viewed in the same way today either.

Completely agree. I had a 7th grade shop teacher who made the first project designing and making your own wooden paddle. After the project was completed, he hung them in the wall. If you got out of line, he beat your ass with the paddle you had made. I tested him once. And I emphasize ONCE. Old boy could hit hard.

That was in the 70s. 20 years later, I'm sure it would have been characterized as physical abuse. Today it would have been characterized as mental abuse as well, and Twitter would have been...well...A twitter

[IU Scott]

Just now, IUFLA said:

Completely agree. I had a 7th grade shop teacher who made the first project designing and making wooden paddle. After the project was completed, he hung them in the wall. If you got out of line, he beat your ass with the paddle you had made. I tested him once. And I emphasize ONCE. Old boy could hit hard.

That was in the 70s. 20 years later, I'm sure it would have been characterized as physical abuse. Today it would have been characterized as mental abuse as well, and Twitter would have been...well...Atwitter

I usually was well behaved in school but my 6th grade year I had to go 3 times to the principals office.  One time I got paddled and that was the last time I was ever in a principals office.  It was a fiberglass paddle with holes in it and it was very painful but it worked because I never had any other problems in school.

[Hoosierhoopster]

^^ I am not in any way in favor of corporal punishment, the idea that a school official can wack your kid with wood or fiberglass is incredibly stupid, imo. Glad that's a thing of the past.

That said, I think I have the record for University Middle School in Bloomington (no longer exists) - visits to the principal's office in 7th grade: 27!

[Billingsley99]

27 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I usually was well behaved in school but my 6th grade year I had to go 3 times to the principals office.  One time I got paddled and that was the last time I was ever in a principals office.  It was a fiberglass paddle with holes in it and it was very painful but it worked because I never had any other problems in school.

In middle school in the 1st week  each year the principal would tell teachers to have their doors open at a certain time and the principal would swat who he thought was the biggest problem. He did it in the hallway so all could hear. Needless to say behavior was pretty good 

[IU Scott]

8 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

^^ I am not in any way in favor of corporal punishment, the idea that a school official can wack your kid with wood or fiberglass is incredibly stupid, imo. Glad that's a thing of the past.

That said, I think I have the record for University Middle School in Bloomington (no longer exists) - visits to the principal's office in 7th grade: 27!

Back then most parents was contacted but they would say that if my son or daughter misbehaved then go ahead and give them a paddle.  The threat was that if you got a paddle at home then you will get a worse one at home.

[IUFLA]

Expanding on the leadership/abuse topic...

I was at a workshop last year when a woman with a distictly British accent from Evans Corp came to talk to us about leadership. She split us into 3 man teams and asked us to pick 3 leadership figures we admired. One of the guys in my group (a Kentucky fan, and a good friend) suggested Bob Knight. We also submitted George Patton and Martin Luther King Jr.

When she came to us, she said, "lm not familiar with the Knight gentleman, but MLK is a solid pick. Hmm. Patton. Do you think that someone with a softer hand would have had the same result or different?"

The guy from Kentucky spoke up. "Different. You'd have a German accent."

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

To each their own. Good to know where you stand. You would prefer your kids to be mentored by Kelvin Sampson for 4 years over Bob Knight. Interesting. 

I don't prefer either to mentor my child, but I definitely prefer my child to not be abused. When debating between an abuser and a non-abuser, it's a pretty easy choice. 

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, Billingsley99 said:

All teams have issues with it. Those players for BK also knew what happens when u get caught. With KS it was being done in 5he facility no one hid it.

IT left his girlfriend stranded on side of the road with a flat tire and ran to Assembly hall to not be late. I saw a "player come to practice 45 minutes late hi as a kite drunk off his butt and one of the assistants took him to sober him up because it was the almost time to get on the bus to leave for a road game.

This is not a story that paints Knight in a good light at all. He left his girlfriend stranded on the side of the road because he was afraid of the fallout with his coach? This paints an ugly picture of the coach. 

2 hours ago, Billingsley99 said:

The product was not great. The talent yes. For the first time ever I was flat out embarrassed to be a fan. That is part of the product 

The product was the basketball team. It was the best team we've had in 25 years. Rather or not you're proud of the players is a completely different discussion. I'm not disagreeing with you that the culture of that team and coach left a lot to be desired - I'm just expressing you're being selective about caring about culture. 

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, 5fouls said:

For much of Bob Knight's tenure, his actions were not considered abuse.  Times change, but a historical figure has to be judged based on the era. Some of the great military leaders of the past would not be viewed in the same way today either.

I mean, we know that in the 80s he was throwing police officers in trashcans. That's pretty abusive behavior at the peak of our success. Just because people didn't care doesn't mean it wasn't abuse.

Culture in America, in general, has a history of putting winning/success above everything else. I think that's more indicative of what happened with Knight than the fact that his actions were somehow okay.