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2 hours ago, 5fouls said:

For much of Bob Knight's tenure, his actions were not considered abuse.  Times change, but a historical figure has to be judged based on the era. Some of the great military leaders of the past would not be viewed in the same way today either.

My HS wrestling coach (in the mid to late 1970s) was cut from the same cloth as Knight. One time we had a tourney coming up and several guys were above weight. We were practicing in sweats and "plastics" (nylon suits over the sweats that held in body heat.I believe IHSAA has since outlawed). The coach taped an ice pack to the thermostat in the wrestling room, so the heat ran constantly. It's amazing no one died.

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11 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

This is not a story that paints Knight in a good light at all. He left his girlfriend stranded on the side of the road because he was afraid of the fallout with his coach? This paints an ugly picture of the coach. 

The product was the basketball team. It was the best team we've had in 25 years. Rather or not you're proud of the players is a completely different discussion. I'm not disagreeing with you that the culture of that team and coach left a lot to be desired - I'm just expressing you're being selective about caring about culture. 

The evil knight made a phone call to have her picked up taken home and the car fixed. Players should have some amount of fear of their coach. I can say I never drank smoked or did any drugs in HS out of plain fear of my coach. Others did and paid the price if caught. If having a tough coach is the reason that I did not fall to some of the vices that can lead to much worse things then so be it. I am much better for it. I would rather have someone as a leader that viewed in that light than to have one that allowed me to do what ever illegal activities I want.  I would take BK's culture 1000 fold over that of Sampson. 

 

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13 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I mean, we know that in the 80s he was throwing police officers in trashcans. That's pretty abusive behavior at the peak of our success. Just because people didn't care doesn't mean it wasn't abuse.

Culture in America, in general, has a history of putting winning/success above everything else. I think that's more indicative of what happened with Knight than the fact that his actions were somehow okay. 

I don't think anyone is saying it was not abuse. I could play for Knight but would not want my son to. I could handle it. Going to IU then you knew what you were getting into. There was no BS in the recruiting process. I am sure KS is not sitting in the living room of recruits saying if you son wants to come to practice hi drunk and get arrested then IU is the place for him, and on top of it as a coach I will not only accept it I will endorse it. That is what was happening so those not partaking were were still subjected to it.  Come to Indiana. BYOW!!!!!

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4 minutes ago, rico said:

All this talk makes me want to watch "The Junction Boys".  For those not familiar with it....google it.  

I have a friend, George Harrison (no, not THAT George Harrison) that played basketball for the University of Alabama in the late 60s/early 70s. CM Newton was the basketball coach then. He told me that once CM had an appointment during one of their practices and asked Bryant if he'd run them through some exercises. George's words:"That SOB damn near killed us."

Loved that story along with stories about how Issel chewed him up, and Pistol Pete laughing at him after putting on a move.

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15 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

My HS wrestling coach (in the mid to late 1970s) was cut from the same cloth as Knight. One time we had a tourney coming up and several guys were above weight. We were practicing in sweats and "plastics" (nylon suits over the sweats that held in body heat.I believe IHSAA has since outlawed). The coach taped an ice pack to the thermostat in the wrestling room, so the heat ran constantly. It's amazing no one died.

We lived in a different era and our parents accepted it if they knew. It was not viewed as abuse. In little league I had a coach stand at home plate with a bat and swung as we ran toward home plate forcing us to slide. Guess what i learned quickly how to slide and never once did I get out for not sliding at any level but yet my son plays college baseball and i see it at that level. My high school baseball coach lined us up against the brick wall and hit hard grounders to us if we missed the ricochet off the wall is gonna get you. I learned to become a really good fielder.  I am not saying this is acceptable but i learned a lot of things from those coaches. Can you even imagine the backlash today.  I tell me wife these stories and she is appalled. My response is he is the coach and I do what is asked no questions. 

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22 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I mean, we know that in the 80s he was throwing police officers in trashcans. That's pretty abusive behavior at the peak of our success. Just because people didn't care doesn't mean it wasn't abuse.

Culture in America, in general, has a history of putting winning/success above everything else. I think that's more indicative of what happened with Knight than the fact that his actions were somehow okay. 

I am not for abuse but the lack of discipline today is a problem because there is no respect for authority today.  Today these kids have no fear of consequences and they no they can get away with anything and they will feel entitled.

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I tried to teach my kids at an early age to respect teachers and other authority figures and my kids never had to go to the principals office for disciplinary reason.  One way to teach them is by your actions and they saw me to this day call my former teachers Mr. and MRs even though I am 48 years old. 

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8 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I am not for abuse but the lack of discipline today is a problem because there is no respect for authority today.  Today these kids have no fear of consequences and they no they can get away with anything and they will feel entitled.

That lack of respect comes from a lack of respectable actions. 

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7 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I am not for abuse but the lack of discipline today is a problem because there is no respect for authority today.  Today these kids have no fear of consequences and they no they can get away with anything and they will feel entitled.

I have 3 grown children. All good, successful people. I never spanked any of them...

But, I look at it like this. Spanking was immediate punishment. There was nothing to stick to or follow up on. Punishment like grounding require a longer term commitment, and this is where I think some parents fail...I always told them what the punishment was going to be, and I always enforced it. A sad face was not going to make me waver. I said 2 weeks, it's 2 weeks. 

That's the hard part of parenting. Sticking to your guns when on the inside it's killing you to see them be sad. But in the long run, it's the best thing for them.

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3 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm sorry... What? Salesforce is a multi national, multi billion dollar organization. It is on a SIGNIFICANTLY higher level than what IU basketball operates at. But that's irrelevant to the point. 

There is a tangible product with IU basketball.... It's the team that we put on the floor. My love for Indiana University goes FAR beyond our basketball team, and I didn't enjoy a lot of the "stuff" with that team as such. But the product was great. 

I'll also say this.... I would rather my child play for Kelvin Sampson than Bob Knight ten times out of ten. So whatever "stuff" there was with Sampson that took away from the the product on the court, there was worse stuff with Knight. I'll take failing grades and weed over abuse all day. 

So you would rather have your child flunk out of college and do illegal drugs rather than be held accountable by the person there at college to play for...that sounds like a form of abuse to me

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1 minute ago, HoosierJax said:

So you would rather have your child flunk out of college and do illegal drugs rather than be held accountable by the person there at college to play for...that sounds like a form of abuse to me

Yeah, because those are the only two alternatives. 

My kid is responsible for herself - if she flunks out of college it is on her. If she needs an abusive, authoritarian bully to prevent her from doing that I failed in raising her and she has failed herself. What I don't want is my kid to have an abusive, authoritarian figure in her life. 

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26 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

That lack of respect comes from a lack of respectable actions. 

Not in most cases because most teachers are doing a great job but the kids are hard to handle due to their lack of respect.  People are always trying to find excuses on why kids misbehave and get into trouble but the place to start is at home.

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23 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I have 3 grown children. All good, successful people. I never spanked any of them...

But, I look at it like this. Spanking was immediate punishment. There was nothing to stick to or follow up on. Punishment like grounding require a longer term commitment, and this is where I think some parents fail...I always told them what the punishment was going to be, and I always enforced it. A sad face was not going to make me waver. I said 2 weeks, it's 2 weeks. 

That's the hard part of parenting. Sticking to your guns when on the inside it's killing you to see them be sad. But in the long run, it's the best thing for them.

I was luck that my kids was really well behaved and did not really had to discipline that much. Only thing with grounding is what are you grounding them from.  If you tell the that they can't go out with their friends and have to stay home a lot of kids won't care.  they have everything at home they need with their phones or laptops where they can still be in touch with their friends.

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1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

Not in most cases because most teachers are doing a great job but the kids are hard to handle due to their lack of respect.  People are always trying to find excuses on why kids misbehave and get into trouble but the place to start is at home.

Parents need to do a better job - we also need more respectable authority figures in our country. Respect is earned, not given. 

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1 minute ago, KoB2011 said:

Parents need to do a better job - we also need more respectable authority figures in our country. Respect is earned, not given. 

I guess we just grew up in a different time because I was taught to respect authorities such as teachers.  I think most of these people deserve our respect and if kids are taught at home to respect them then things would be in better shape  When I was in school we never had to worry about whether or not a kids was going to come into the school to shoot up the building.  I lived in a small town and my parents never had to worry about me when I was a kid if I was going to get shot by a drive by,  I could go around my town at night and not have to worry about if I was going to get abducted or not.

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1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said:

Tony Dungy we can all agree very effective leader.  his rule not mine. No excuses, no explanations!!!!!

to me what I see with younger coaches is that they have no back bone to put their foot down and tell the players this is how things work on my team.  I would tell the players especially in high school is that if you don't like the way I coach, tough because it is my way or the high way.  if they don't like it then go find somewhere else to play because the players or parents  are not running my team.

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38 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Good leaders encourage questioning things. 

My respect for my coaches was not out of fear it was out of respect that they were the boss and I did not want to let them down. Its sad that a coach at the high school level can say very little out of fear of Jonny running home crying to mom and Dad. 

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3 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Guys, this is the Around the BIG/NCAA thread -- a little off topic is always OK but this is getting pretty extensive, you can take the corporal punishment / Knight stuff to the Animal House. Thanks.

you are correct but not sure it much more off topic than most recruiting threads but I will do as you wish and not comment on things OFF TOPIC!!!

 

Wisc 101  Savanah State 60.  What A Game!!!!

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