The H🔥T Seat

[Billingsley99]

4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I'm just dumbfounded at where IU is at as a program right now. I do believe a lot of this lies on the administration. At some point when you've had 5 different head coaches (counting Knight's last several years, Davis, Sampson, Crean & Archie) and the results are basically the same, you have to go higher than the coach. It's like a company that keeps trending down and fires their CEO every 2 years. At some point you have to look at the BOD, Chairman and the overall culture/support that the organization is giving to their CEO's. 

With all of that said, I'm just not sure what to make of Archie at this point. I'm just really confused about who he is or what is going on with him? He wasn't my first choice mid-way through Crean's last year when it was clear a change was coming, but then I did more research on him and began to get excited about him. I knew he was a hard-nosed, gritty player, but didn't realize he had been an assistant at all three of NC State, Arizona and Ohio State. You have to be able to recruit at those places, especially at Zona and OSU under Matta. 

Then knowing his Dayton success and track record in both the regular season, A-10 Tournament and NCAA tournament, I thought we were getting this gritty, no-nonsense, disciplined defensive coach that would have even more efficient offenses with better recruiting at IU, that had a chance to be a great, long-term coach. I knew he had taken a Dayton team that lost 3 starters and 4 seniors from the Elite 8 team and came back with nobody over 6'6" to 27 wins and won 2 NCAA Tournament games, which shows he can coach. 

Then he said all the right things at his intro press conference, he locked down the state, he said all the right things in post-game press conferences, etc., etc., but for whatever reason the Archie Miller of the last two seasons is not the same guy. He's not the guy I read about and have heard speak. He's not the guy that was given the "Archie" nickname because he was so no-nonsense, etc. 

I'm not giving up on Archie completely. I still think he can be a fantastic fit at IU, and I really want him to succeed. But, I'm just not seeing the same guy that I read about prior to his hiring. It's like he's a different person and I don't get it, or maybe I misread who I thought he was. I thought we'd have teams built in the mold of his personality. Teams that despite talent or lack thereof, would be pitbulls to play. Teams that opponents hated to play in Assembly Hall because it would be a war regardless of how good or bad IU actually was. 

I'm just really dumbfounded and surprised that in year 3 Archie can't get his team to play hard consistently and that his team seems completely opposite from his personality. I just don't get it. 

i agree completely with everything that you said. I have not seen the guy that we all thought we were getting as our new head coach. I have seen this many times in high school coaches. I have had close friends that were very successful at a small school and when given the opportunity at a big school they changed what made them successful. They thought they had to do things differently because of the size of the new school. Most did not last very long and they ones that have learned that they had to go back to their old ways and the results they improved. I truly think that for whatever reason he is afraid to hurt guys feelings because he may not get the recruits needed to win at Indiana. He has coddled these guys and it is apparent to most fans. I think he knows that and it kills him and unless it changes quickly he will have the opportunity to coach again at a small school. 

[Jam]

I’m afraid that Archie has lost recruiting momentum. May have started with losing KBJ. Struck out with multiple candidates this year. If Schilling was let go because of recruiting misses. Why is Ostrum around? Struck out on Minnesota connections Hurt and Garcia. Would love to see early commitments from 21 Indiana high schoolers but fearing disappointment.

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, Billingsley99 said:

That is your opinion and that is fine. The conversation did happen like I said the source is about as close as you can get. Whether or not they stick to it who knows, but I know that 1 particular coach was told Bowl or bust and his team went out and got it done. the other is still to be seen. 

It’s not my opinion, it’s fact 

[IUCrazy2]

40 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I see people stating that Archie needs to go out and recruit better and get a couple of guards which I agree with.  My question do you think having threads like this about naming possible replacements for Archie's job will help in recruiting.  Don't you think apposing coaches use this kind of negative thinking in recruiting against iU.

The play on the court dictates the conversation on the message boards.

If any recruits are reading this, I have two pieces of advice:

1.  Stay off of message boards.

2.  You will get support from the fans of the school you go to and so will your coach.  However, at a certain point you have to prove to them that you appreciate that support through your play.  If you are going to repeatedly run out on the court and look and play like you don't give a shhh, the fans are going to react to you accordingly.  What you are seeing on this board now is frustration from people who would have cut off their left arm for the chance to be where the guys on this team are now.  When you see someone with that opportunity not only squandering it, but acting like they don't care, it breeds bad feelings.

[IUFLA]

3 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I'm just not seeing the same guy that I read about prior to his hiring. It's like he's a different person and I don't get it, or maybe I misread who I thought he was. I thought we'd have teams built in the mold of his personality.

But that's the thing. He has to have players who fit that mold. I've said it before...he's trying to pound square pegs into round holes right now...

I see the fire on the sidelines...I see the despondency when we lose (and I always go back to Al McGuire's comment in the forward to "Season on the Brink" and how watching RMK come off the floor after his Army team lost in the NIT, he'd never seen someone look so defeated), and trying to coach guys up when they come back to the bench. I try to watch him on the sidelines and in the huddles...and I see those things...

And none of us knows what goes on in practices or in one on one conversations with players...

I think he IS that guy you read about...he needs the time to prove it...

 

[Billingsley99]

Just now, Jam said:

I’m afraid that Archie has lost recruiting momentum. May have started with losing KBJ. Struck out with multiple candidates this year. If Schilling was let go because of recruiting misses. Why is Ostrum around? Struck out on Minnesota connections Hurt and Garcia. Would love to see early commitments from 21 Indiana high schoolers but fearing disappointment.

I don't think Schilling lost his job over recruiting. I might be wrong. I thought it was how he wanted  Miller to coddle the players and not upset them in particular Romeo. Nowhere have I ever heard anyone say that Romeo wanted special treatment but from what I gather Ed thought he should. When Ed left i thought that we would see a hard nosed get up inside someone and come unglued if necessary but that has not happened. 

[Billingsley99]

4 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

It’s not my opinion, it’s fact 

Ok....

Its fact that he was not told that, or fact that he will be back, or both? Since we are talking facts 

[NCHoosier32]

19 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I'm just dumbfounded at where IU is at as a program right now. I do believe a lot of this lies on the administration. At some point when you've had 5 different head coaches (counting Knight's last several years, Davis, Sampson, Crean & Archie) and the results are basically the same, you have to go higher than the coach. It's like a company that keeps trending down and fires their CEO every 2 years. At some point you have to look at the BOD, Chairman and the overall culture/support that the organization is giving to their CEO's. 

With all of that said, I'm just not sure what to make of Archie at this point. I'm just really confused about who he is or what is going on with him? He wasn't my first choice mid-way through Crean's last year when it was clear a change was coming, but then I did more research on him and began to get excited about him. I knew he was a hard-nosed, gritty player, but didn't realize he had been an assistant at all three of NC State, Arizona and Ohio State. You have to be able to recruit at those places, especially at Zona and OSU under Matta. 

Then knowing his Dayton success and track record in both the regular season, A-10 Tournament and NCAA tournament, I thought we were getting this gritty, no-nonsense, disciplined defensive coach that would have even more efficient offenses with better recruiting at IU, that had a chance to be a great, long-term coach. I knew he had taken a Dayton team that lost 3 starters and 4 seniors from the Elite 8 team and came back with nobody over 6'6" to 27 wins and won 2 NCAA Tournament games, which shows he can coach. 

Then he said all the right things at his intro press conference, he locked down the state, he said all the right things in post-game press conferences, etc., etc., but for whatever reason the Archie Miller of the last two seasons is not the same guy. He's not the guy I read about and have heard speak. He's not the guy that was given the "Archie" nickname because he was so no-nonsense, etc. 

I'm not giving up on Archie completely. I still think he can be a fantastic fit at IU, and I really want him to succeed. But, I'm just not seeing the same guy that I read about prior to his hiring. It's like he's a different person and I don't get it, or maybe I misread who I thought he was. I thought we'd have teams built in the mold of his personality. Teams that despite talent or lack thereof, would be pitbulls to play. Teams that opponents hated to play in Assembly Hall because it would be a war regardless of how good or bad IU actually was. 

I'm just really dumbfounded and surprised that in year 3 Archie can't get his team to play hard consistently and that his team seems completely opposite from his personality. I just don't get it. 

fantastic post

[Billingsley99]

2 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

But that's the thing. He has to have players who fit that mold. I've said it before...he's trying to pound square pegs into round holes right now...

I see the fire on the sidelines...I see the despondency when we lose (and I always go back to Al McGuire's comment in the forward to "Season on the Brink" and how watching RMK come off the floor after his Army team lost in the NIT, he'd never seen someone look so defeated), and trying to coach guys up when they come back to the bench. I try to watch him on the sidelines and in the huddles...and I see those things...

And none of us knows what goes on in practices or in one on one conversations with players...

I think he IS that guy you read about...he needs the time to prove it...

 

I do not buy into that argument at all. I am sure I come across as a CTC supporter but what was left for him was far from players that fit the mold. He went out and got players that he thought would and at this point in his tenure we were seeing results. I would rather have a losing record with guys that play hard and we can say we just don't have the talent. That is not the case we may not have great talent but we are soft low BB IQ and don't play with heart and passion. At the end of the day that is squarely on the shoulders of the man in charge. Play the effing walk on's if guys that are on scholarship don't want to play hard. There is not excuse for the product that we have to watch or for many not watch anymore. CAM would earn a lot of respect if he came out with a line up of the 5 hardest working guys in practice.  Hell we gonna lose more than win in the conference might as well do it with some pride. 

[dbmhoosier]

All 5 starters are Archie recruits.  He has his guys.  Deron can’t play and Devonte shouldn’t even be on the team anymore.  This is all on Archie.

[DC2345]

IU won't fire Archie this year as much as they need to unless glass isn't involved with the new hire. That said if it is in fact Dolson that gets the AD job this is what will likely happen. 

1. Archie gets another year because the athletic department is out of money and can't pay the buyout. Rumor has it donor's have talked about stepping in though. 

2. They don't want Glass to make the next hire anyway so they'll wait until he's gone.

3. If Dolson gets the AD job look for him to bring in Alford. Just a gut feeling. 

[IUFLA]

Just now, Billingsley99 said:

I do not buy into that argument at all. I am sure I come across as a CTC supporter but what was left for him was far from players that fit the mold. He went out and got players that he thought would and at this point in his tenure we were seeing results. I would rather have a losing record with guys that play hard and we can say we just don't have the talent. That is not the case we may not have great talent but we are soft low BB IQ and don't play with heart and passion. At the end of the day that is squarely on the shoulders of the man in charge. Play the effing walk on's if guys that are on scholarship don't want to play hard. There is not excuse for the product that we have to watch or for many not watch anymore. CAM would earn a lot of respect if he came out with a line up of the 5 hardest working guys in practice.  Hell we gonna lose more than win in the conference might as well do it with some pride. 

Do you think we still have a shot at the NCAA tournament? 

Don't give me the "not like we're playing" line...we've seen this same team beat MSU, FSU, OSU, and give a damned good Maryland team a run for their money...so we all know they do have the potential...

"Respect" is one thing...falling on your sword to prove a point is quite another...I do think CAM heavily takes into account how hard guys practice, but you have to put some limit on that...Cooper Bybee might be hell on wheels in practice as far as the hustle part goes, but he's not going to compete with the guards in the B10...

We still have a shot here...

[IU Scott]

25 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

i agree completely with everything that you said. I have not seen the guy that we all thought we were getting as our new head coach. I have seen this many times in high school coaches. I have had close friends that were very successful at a small school and when given the opportunity at a big school they changed what made them successful. They thought they had to do things differently because of the size of the new school. Most did not last very long and they ones that have learned that they had to go back to their old ways and the results they improved. I truly think that for whatever reason he is afraid to hurt guys feelings because he may not get the recruits needed to win at Indiana. He has coddled these guys and it is apparent to most fans. I think he knows that and it kills him and unless it changes quickly he will have the opportunity to coach again at a small school. 

To me you are seeing it with Shaka Smart at UT because at VCU his teams was a pressing full court team and he has went away from that now.  This was the reason why I had no interest in Shaka when we had an opening because I don't think his pressing style would work in the big ten.

[Vincent14]

2 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Does not matter who the administration is because Stevens and more than likely Donovan is not coming back to college.

They have both said they are interested in coming back to college.  I don't think you realize that most coaches would prefer to coach college than pro.  Pro coaches aren't as crucial to a team's success as college coaches are.   They are hanging around grown men who make more than them who basically coach themselves.  Think of the best coaches of all time, Bob Knight, Roy Williams, Dean Smith, John Wooden, Coach K, there aren't equivalents in the NBA.

[BGleas]

13 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

But that's the thing. He has to have players who fit that mold. I've said it before...he's trying to pound square pegs into round holes right now...

I see the fire on the sidelines...I see the despondency when we lose (and I always go back to Al McGuire's comment in the forward to "Season on the Brink" and how watching RMK come off the floor after his Army team lost in the NIT, he'd never seen someone look so defeated), and trying to coach guys up when they come back to the bench. I try to watch him on the sidelines and in the huddles...and I see those things...

And none of us knows what goes on in practices or in one on one conversations with players...

I think he IS that guy you read about...he needs the time to prove it...

 

First to be clear, and this is not directed at you, I'm not calling for his head. But, I am in year 3 disappointed in the product on the court and the effort/intensity of the team. 

To your post, I think in year 3 that what I was referring to (playing hard, playing with passion and being tough consistently) shouldn't be as much of an issue as it is, especially for someone supposedly with Archie's temperament. In addition, if there are square pegs that can't play hard and play with passion, we're at a point where those guys shouldn't play then. They should be benched. Archie talked a lot after the NW game about making big changes, he talked about it again after one of the recent loses, and yet we see the same things over and over again. The same guys playing. 

I agree, we can't comment on practice, etc., all we see if 40 minutes of game time 1-2 times per week. But at some point the Archie that we thought we were getting needs to show up. There's got to be some desperation from his seat, or this won't end well. 

[DC2345]

@Billingsley99 who gave Archie that ultimatum. Glass or the trustee's? I've heard Glass hasn't done anything since he announced his retirement.

[CTrojan88]

23 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

It’s not my opinion, it’s fact 

So your opinion is now fact?

[IU Scott]

12 minutes ago, Vincent14 said:

They have both said they are interested in coming back to college.  I don't think you realize that most coaches would prefer to coach college than pro.  Pro coaches aren't as crucial to a team's success as college coaches are.   They are hanging around grown men who make more than them who basically coach themselves.  Think of the best coaches of all time, Bob Knight, Roy Williams, Dean Smith, John Wooden, Coach K, there aren't equivalents in the NBA.

Not according to Stevens and his wife when they said they enjoy the NBA lifestyle a lot better.  There are way more family time in the NBA and Stevens does not like how recruiting is going in college especially at the hire level.

[BGleas]

3 minutes ago, Vincent14 said:

They have both said they are interested in coming back to college.  I don't think you realize that most coaches would prefer to coach college than pro.  Pro coaches aren't as crucial to a team's success as college coaches are.   They are hanging around grown men who make more than them who basically coach themselves.  Think of the best coaches of all time, Bob Knight, Roy Williams, Dean Smith, John Wooden, Coach K, there aren't equivalents in the NBA.

When has Brad Stevens said he's interested in coming back to college? He's going to be an NBA lifer, unless something drastic changes. 

As far as NBA coaches, Red Auerbach, Pat Riley, Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, Steve Kerr...I could go on. 

Brad Stevens is working for arguably the most iconic brand in basketball, regardless of level, he has full ownership, front office and fan support, along with one of the best young cores in the NBA, as well as all-star level veterans, and he loves Boston. 

[JugRox]

58 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

If they have to fire Miller, I don't believe you have a grasp on the sense of urgency that is going to set in.  Particularly now that the former Knight players are going to feel more comfortable back in the University family.

Pressure is really going to ratchet up if we keep losing like this.  If we miss the tournament this year and have another lackluster year after that, the first issue the new AD and President are going to have is that, whether they like it or not, the biggest face of this school...the thing that keeps most alumni and other state backers interested in the school, is in the middle of having to release their 5th coach in 20 years.  Go out to the comment section of the University backed social media.  It is about to get ugly.  Again.  The pressure is going to be on to get the next hire right. 

So yeah, those guys may not choose to come, but I think IU is going to have to A)make them a big offer and B)make it publically known they did if they get rejected.  Kind of similar to what UCLA did on their last job search.

UCLA was laughed at while doing their search last year. 

https://www.si.com/college/2019/04/15/ucla-coach-search-hire-mick-cronin

Read that article and replace UCLA with Indiana.

UCLA ended up with Mick Cronin after going after the big names and if IU fires Miller, that's exactly the level of coach IU will end up with.

The President doesn't give 2 sh*ts how the basketball team performs, as long as the B10 network money keeps rolling in.

[Billingsley99]

1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

Do you think we still have a shot at the NCAA tournament? 

Don't give me the "not like we're playing" line...we've seen this same team beat MSU, FSU, OSU, and give a damned good Maryland team a run for their money...so we all know they do have the potential...

"Respect" is one thing...falling on your sword to prove a point is quite another...I do think CAM heavily takes into account how hard guys practice, but you have to put some limit on that...Cooper Bybee might be hell on wheels in practice as far as the hustle part goes, but he's not going to compete with the guards in the B10...

We still have a shot here...

To be honest I don't think we have a legit shot. I am not sure we get any more than 2 wins and may not get those. The wheels fell off last year during Big play they have done the same this year. At the end of the day does it matter if PU beats us by 12 or 30. Maybe we don't have 5 guys that pay hard, if not then whose fault is that?  Bybee may not compete with BIG guards but neither are any of our other guys. At least CAM would show that he has a set of balls.

Everyone talks about CBK getting beat by 50 against Minny. He was sending a message and the message was heard. I for one do not like the message that CAM has sent loud and clear and anyone that knows anything about basketball is lying to themselves if they think he has taken any kind of stand. We have the talent to be better than what we are. 

Quoting you, ."we've seen this same team beat MSU, FSU, OSU, and give a damned good Maryland team a run for their money...so we all know they do have the potential..."  Whose job is it to get the most out of your players. We beat those teams with CTC's players as many want to say. We make excuses about he does not have his players but when we win they its ok, it must have been great coaching.  I am not on the fire CAM bandwagon I just don't think he has done a good job since being hired. 

[DC2345]

5 minutes ago, Vincent14 said:

They have both said they are interested in coming back to college.  I don't think you realize that most coaches would prefer to coach college than pro.  Pro coaches aren't as crucial to a team's success as college coaches are.   They are hanging around grown men who make more than them who basically coach themselves.  Think of the best coaches of all time, Bob Knight, Roy Williams, Dean Smith, John Wooden, Coach K, there aren't equivalents in the NBA.

That's not accuarate on Stevens and Donovan. Donovan could go back to college if he ever gets fired but Stevens isn't. 

[OLDIUFAN]

9 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

IU won't fire Archie this year as much as they need to unless glass isn't involved with the new hire. That said if it is in fact Dolson that gets the AD job this is what will likely happen. 

1. Archie gets another year because the athletic department is out of money and can't pay the buyout. Rumor has it donor's have talked about stepping in though. 

2. They don't want Glass to make the next hire anyway so they'll wait until he's gone.

3. If Dolson gets the AD job look for him to bring in Alford. Just a gut feeling. 

I am sorry, I loved Alford when played at IU. His coaching record isn’t that outstanding to believe he is the guy to bring us back! I am just not sold on Alford as a coach. Lost at Iowa got fired at UCLA. 

[Billingsley99]

7 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

@Billingsley99 who gave Archie that ultimatum. Glass or the trustee's? I've heard Glass hasn't done anything since he announced his retirement.

Glass, in August!!! If you need the exact date I could find out since like I said the source is good. 1 of the 2 coaches I mentioned calls this person by something much closer than his first name. 

[JugRox]

7 minutes ago, Vincent14 said:

They have both said they are interested in coming back to college.  I don't think you realize that most coaches would prefer to coach college than pro.  Pro coaches aren't as crucial to a team's success as college coaches are.   They are hanging around grown men who make more than them who basically coach themselves.  Think of the best coaches of all time, Bob Knight, Roy Williams, Dean Smith, John Wooden, Coach K, there aren't equivalents in the NBA.

Wrong.

The coaches you listed started their careers in the 60s and 70s......that was over 40 years ago. Times changed....