The H🔥T Seat

[Hoosierhoopster]

10 hours ago, Danomatic said:

I just honestly, for the life of me, can’t understand a program with so much tradition and pride.... being down for this flipping long. We’ve been to what, 4 Sweet 16’s in 22 years? That’s absurd, and I’m exhausted with the wait and see game. 
 

I’m sick of us settling for mediocrity. I’m so over the excuses, it’s mind numbing.
 

“And I’m sick and fn tired of losing to Purdue! I’m not here to f around.”

The thing is that span is a tale of multiple coaching changes Bookended with the wholesale destruction of the basketball program courtesy of the combination of Sampson, the ncaa’s treatment of telephone infractions, and IU’s over the top response. 
and yet what do the fans on message board say? They say, hey let’s fire the coach! 
at some point the fans need to finally get that a program needs continuity, and support the program through it. 

[CincyHoosier]

11 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

The thing is that span is a tale of multiple coaching changes Bookended with the wholesale destruction of the basketball program courtesy of the combination of Sampson, the ncaa’s treatment of telephone infractions, and IU’s over the top response. 
and yet what do the fans on message board say? They say, hey let’s fire the coach! 
at some point the fans need to finally get that a program needs continuity, and support the program through it. 

Agree partly.  Did Crean get the appropriate continuity and time here?  Many say we hung onto him too long yet he had pretty good results some years.  Would you be happy if we had held onto Crean?  How does Crean compare to Archie's first 2.5 years?  Archie needs more time but there arent many signs of life right now.  Patience is something IU fans had 20 years ago but had steadily dwindled over 2 decades of mediocrity.

[Maedhros]

38 minutes ago, Indiana8585 said:

I’m honestly not a patient person about this anymore like I used to be, as a fourth generation IU alum it’s been in my family and life since I can remember but yet at 34 I don’t know if I’ll ever see them return to where we all want them to be or where many others have seen them. I thought the low point was during my student years and the Sampson debacle etc but who knows I did find it interesting looking up some current successful coaches. 

How freaked out would people be if Archie goes, 19-13, 15-16, and 18-17 in his first three years and misses the tourney? 

I think we'd feel a lot better about it if we were rolling into the upcoming season with a 7 man rotation composed entirely of RSCI top 65 recruits, four of them juniors, and adding a freshman point guard who would go on to be a six time NBA All Star.

My issue with the constant use of early records is that it's such a 30,000 foot view. Wins and losses alone tell us very little about the direction of the program. For every successful coach that struggled early there are many more that just kept struggling. So what details are we seeing to make us think Archie will be the former, not the latter? Does he have a Cody Zeller coming in next season, and an All American point guard in the class after that? Does he have a stellar four man freshman class this season that just needs time, with two All Americans coming in next season, as Coach K did when he turned it around in year 4? What specifically about the current program inspires confidence that we'll be in the Sweet Sixteen next season and the Elite Eight after that, like your example of Jay Wright?

[FW_Hoosier]

2 minutes ago, CincyHoosier said:

Agree partly.  Did Crean get the appropriate continuity and time here?  Many say we hung onto him too long yet he had pretty good results some years.  Would you be happy if we had held onto Crean?  How does Crean compare to Archie's first 2.5 years?  Archie needs more time but there arent many signs of life right now.  Patience is something IU fans had 20 years ago but had steadily dwindled over 2 decades of mediocrity.

This is the problem.  We fired an above-average coach in the hope of hiring someone who could elevate the program, but it’s pretty clear that the program’s ceiling now is lower than it was under Crean.  The fanbase thought we were aiming to get to the level of a Duke/Kansas type program, but three years later we’d all be absolutely thrilled to be Purdue.  It’s the transition in expectations that’s creating a lot of angst, along with the fact that the program is worse off now than it was 3-4 years ago.

[Indiana8585]

22 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

I think we'd feel a lot better about it if we were rolling into the upcoming season with a 7 man rotation composed entirely of RSCI top 65 recruits, four of them juniors, and adding a freshman point guard who would go on to be a six time NBA All Star.

My issue with the constant use of early records is that it's such a 30,000 foot view. Wins and losses alone tell us very little about the direction of the program. For every successful coach that struggled early there are many more that just kept struggling. So what details are we seeing to make us think Archie will be the former, not the latter? Does he have a Cody Zeller coming in next season, and an All American point guard in the class after that? Does he have a stellar four man freshman class this season that just needs time, with two All Americans coming in next season, as Coach K did when he turned it around in year 4? What specifically about the current program inspires confidence that we'll be in the Sweet Sixteen next season and the Elite Eight after that, like your example of Jay Wright

22 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

I think we'd feel a lot better about it if we were rolling into the upcoming season with a 7 man rotation composed entirely of RSCI top 65 recruits, four of them juniors, and adding a freshman point guard who would go on to be a six time NBA All Star.

My issue with the constant use of early records is that it's such a 30,000 foot view. Wins and losses alone tell us very little about the direction of the program. For every successful coach that struggled early there are many more that just kept struggling. So what details are we seeing to make us think Archie will be the former, not the latter? Does he have a Cody Zeller coming in next season, and an All American point guard in the class after that? Does he have a stellar four man freshman class this season that just needs time, with two All Americans coming in next season, as Coach K did when he turned it around in year 4? What specifically about the current program inspires confidence that we'll be in the Sweet Sixteen next season and the Elite Eight after that, like your example of Jay Wright?

did you read my entire post? I’m not happy and can barely watch right now and don’t think Archie is the answer but I’m pointing out the fact that many successful programs in today’s game have stuck by their coaches or have given them at least a fourth year. I think having the core we have coming back and an all American big and several other sophomores who could make big jumps this team could be good next year. So we already have an AA big for next year and recruiting isn’t done for 2021. 

 I never once said I expected him to be jay wright I’m just pointing out that sticking with a coach can prove to be successful. Not only in college but in every other sport having consistency and not changing head coaches every five years usually leads to successful programs/franchise’s. 

[JugRox]

33 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

This is the problem.  We fired an above-average coach in the hope of hiring someone who could elevate the program, but it’s pretty clear that the program’s ceiling now is lower than it was under Crean.  The fanbase thought we were aiming to get to the level of a Duke/Kansas type program, but three years later we’d all be absolutely thrilled to be Purdue.  It’s the transition in expectations that’s creating a lot of angst, along with the fact that the program is worse off now than it was 3-4 years ago.

This isn't a Tom Crean bash post, but "above average"? Crean made the NCAA 4 times in 9 years. And I'm sure someone will say his first 3 years don't count. The first year, yes. But year 2 they went 10-21 and year 3 they went 12-20. Nobody was expecting the NCAA but those records are awful. That year 3 team had sophmore Hulls, Watford, and freshmen VO, Sheehe...and junior Jones, Roth, Pritchard. 

Then Crean landed Zeller. No Zeller, Crean is gone after year 5 (maybe year 4).

Yes, there was a nice 2 year run there in the middle after the Zeller years, but that was the pinnacle of the Crean 9 year run.

At Georgia in his first 2 years, Crean is 11-21 and currently 12-10. And that's with a NBA top 3 pick in the SEC.

Let's put all that aside.....Crean completely lost in state recruiting. Just that alone is a death sentence being the coach at IU. Ask Mike Davis.

That's why the 2021 class is so important to Miller. He lands a top 10 class full of in state players, he is going to be here for awhile.

Pull a Tom Crean 2017 by missing out on 5 top 75 in state recruits, Miller is in trouble. 

[Indiana8585]

Plus look at Tony Bennett at uva and he went to the nit his fourth year after barely making the tourney his third. Many analysts didn’t know if his style would work in the acc either.  I wish we could make a change but it’s laughable if people think Stevens or Donovan are coming here. Then the only coach I’d want is Beard but he’s a Texas guy so he’s probably got a long term interest there so who do you go after? 

[JugRox]

3 minutes ago, Indiana8585 said:

Plus look at Tony Bennett at uva and he went to the nit his fourth year after barely making the tourney his third r. I wish we could make a change but it’s laughable if people think Stevens or Donovan are coming here. Then the only coach I’d want is Beard but he’s a Texas guy so he’s probably got a long term interest there so who do you go after? 

Beard is making $4.5 million a year (a million more than Miller), Texas Tech is building a $30 million basketball practice facility that makes Cook Hall look pedestrian at best, nobody is on him when he's sitting there at 13-8 after a free fall out of the rankings, compliance isn't monitoring every time he sneezes, Texas Tech is willing to do what it takes to get grad transfers every year, he's from The Woodlands, Texas, he's a UT grad and has a master's from Abilene Christian, he told UCLA to take a hike last year.

Beard is not going anywhere......

[Indiana8585]

3 minutes ago, JugRox said:

Beard is making $4.5 million a year (a million more than Miller), Texas Tech is building a $30 million basketball practice facility that makes Cook Hall look pedestrian at best, nobody is on him when he's sitting there at 13-8 after a free fall out of the rankings, compliance isn't monitoring every time he sneezes, Texas Tech is willing to do what it takes to get grad transfers every year, he's from The Woodlands, Texas, he's a UT grad and has a master's from Abilene Christian, he told UCLA to take a hike last year.

Beard is not going anywhere......

Thanks like I said he’s a Texas guy so he’s got an interest there. Which meant I didn’t expect him 

[IU Scott]

37 minutes ago, CincyHoosier said:

Agree partly.  Did Crean get the appropriate continuity and time here?  Many say we hung onto him too long yet he had pretty good results some years.  Would you be happy if we had held onto Crean?  How does Crean compare to Archie's first 2.5 years?  Archie needs more time but there arent many signs of life right now.  Patience is something IU fans had 20 years ago but had steadily dwindled over 2 decades of mediocrity.

I disagree because I think the administration has been patient but I don't see the fans being patient at all.  People were calling for Davis's head after a year, Crean after 3 years and Archie after two years.

[JugRox]

1 minute ago, Indiana8585 said:

Thanks like I said he’s a Texas guy so he’s got an interest there. Which meant I didn’t expect him 

I know.....i just get frustrated when people bring up Beard.

My bad...    

[Indiana8585]

Just now, JugRox said:

I know.....i just get frustrated when people bring up Beard.

My bad...    

You’re fine I understand and wish he didn’t have those connections because I really think he’s a great coach. 

[IU Scott]

15 minutes ago, JugRox said:

This isn't a Tom Crean bash post, but "above average"? Crean made the NCAA 4 times in 9 years. And I'm sure someone will say his first 3 years don't count. The first year, yes. But year 2 they went 10-21 and year 3 they went 12-20. Nobody was expecting the NCAA but those records are awful. That year 3 team had sophmore Hulls, Watford, and freshmen VO. 

Then Crean landed Zeller. No Zeller, Crean is gone after year 5 (maybe year 4).

Yes, there was a nice 2 year run there in the middle after the Zeller years, but that was the pinnacle of the Crean 9 year run.

At Georgia in his first 2 years, Crean is 11-21 and currently 12-10. And that's with a NBA top 3 pick in the SEC.

Let's put all that aside.....Crean completely lost in state recruiting. Just that alone is a death sentence being the coach at IU. Ask Mike Davis.

That's why the 2021 class is so important to Miller. He lands a top 10 class full of in state players, he is going to be here for awhile.

Pull a Tom Crean 2017 by missing out on 5 top 75 in state recruits, Miller is in trouble. 

also had an injured Creek who would have been the best player on that team if he was not injured.

[bluegrassIU]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

The thing is that span is a tale of multiple coaching changes Bookended with the wholesale destruction of the basketball program courtesy of the combination of Sampson, the ncaa’s treatment of telephone infractions, and IU’s over the top response. 
and yet what do the fans on message board say? They say, hey let’s fire the coach! 
at some point the fans need to finally get that a program needs continuity, and support the program through it. 

Preach!

[FW_Hoosier]

26 minutes ago, JugRox said:

This isn't a Tom Crean bash post, but "above average"? Crean made the NCAA 4 times in 9 years. And I'm sure someone will say his first 3 years don't count. The first year, yes. But year 2 they went 10-21 and year 3 they went 12-20. Nobody was expecting the NCAA but those records are awful. That year 3 team had sophmore Hulls, Watford, and freshmen VO, Sheehe...and junior Jones, Roth, Pritchard. 

Then Crean landed Zeller. No Zeller, Crean is gone after year 5 (maybe year 4).

Yes, there was a nice 2 year run there in the middle after the Zeller years, but that was the pinnacle of the Crean 9 year run.

At Georgia in his first 2 years, Crean is 11-21 and currently 12-10. And that's with a NBA top 3 pick in the SEC.

Let's put all that aside.....Crean completely lost in state recruiting. Just that alone is a death sentence being the coach at IU. Ask Mike Davis.

That's why the 2021 class is so important to Miller. He lands a top 10 class full of in state players, he is going to be here for awhile.

Pull a Tom Crean 2017 by missing out on 5 top 75 in state recruits, Miller is in trouble. 

You forgot the Big Ten championship and Big Ten Coach of the Year award the season before we fired him.  But look, you don’t have to remind me.  Anyone who was here back then knows I was calling for his head as much as anyone by his last season.  But as the saying goes, be careful what you wish for.  I was hoping we could hire an upgrade on Crean, but it doesn’t appear that we have.

[Maedhros]

55 minutes ago, Indiana8585 said:

did you read my entire post? I’m not happy and can barely watch right now and don’t think Archie is the answer but I’m pointing out the fact that many successful programs in today’s game have stuck by their coaches or have given them at least a fourth year. I think having the core we have coming back and an all American big and several other sophomores who could make big jumps this team could be good next year. So we already have an AA big for next year and recruiting isn’t done for 2021. 

 I never once said I expected him to be jay wright I’m just pointing out that sticking with a coach can prove to be successful. Not only in college but in every other sport having consistency and not changing head coaches every five years usually leads to successful programs/franchise’s. 

Yeah man, I read your entire post. I'm not happy either and share your concerns; that's not the part that prompted my response. It was your last line that had me curious enough to research to whom it was you were referring. Doing so also led to likely reasons why Wright was able to get things going in the right direction. Do we share those reasons for optimism? At this moment in time, I don't believe we do. Sure, maybe we hired our Tony Bennett and in Archie's fifth season he'll bust into the tournament for good with fringe top 100 recruits and a top 50 kid sprinkled on top. I hope we do! But hope makes for a lousy strategy. It's also a lot easier to hold out hope when your school has only won one Tournament game in the 14 years prior to the new coach being hired than it is at an Indiana school trying to level up from Big Ten titles and three Sweet Sixteens in six years. 

I've been labeled anti-Archie by some over on my main board. In truth, I'm just waiting for him to show me something. I'm not willing to take it on faith alone that the new guy is an upgrade on the old guy. We get glimpses for two or three games each season, then long stretches where everything goes to shit. I'm not now and have never called for Archie to be fired, and the terms of his contract dictate that he'll be here at least through next season and probably the season after that. He'll have time to show us what he can do. But there's no causal connection between sticking with a coach and having a successful program. Doing the former is no guarantee of the latter. I need to see reasons to think we have the right guy in place, otherwise we're just committing the sunk costs error.

[IU Scott]

9 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

Yeah man, I read your entire post. I'm not happy either and share your concerns; that's not the part that prompted my response. It was your last line that had me curious enough to research to whom it was you were referring. Doing so also led to likely reasons why Wright was able to get things going in the right direction. Do we share those reasons for optimism? At this moment in time, I don't believe we do. Sure, maybe we hired our Tony Bennett and in Archie's fifth season he'll bust into the tournament for good with fringe top 100 recruits and a top 50 kid sprinkled on top. I hope we do! But hope makes for a lousy strategy. It's also a lot easier to hold out hope when your school has only won one Tournament game in the 14 years prior to the new coach being hired than it is at an Indiana school trying to level up from Big Ten titles and three Sweet Sixteens in six years. 

I've been labeled anti-Archie by some over on my main board. In truth, I'm just waiting for him to show me something. I'm not willing to take it on faith alone that the new guy is an upgrade on the old guy. We get glimpses for two or three games each season, then long stretches where everything goes to shit. I'm not now and have never called for Archie to be fired, and the terms of his contract dictate that he'll be here at least through next season and probably the season after that. He'll have time to show us what he can do. But there's no causal connection between sticking with a coach and having a successful program. Doing the former is no guarantee of the latter. I need to see reasons to think we have the right guy in place, otherwise we're just committing the sunk costs error.

No there are no guarantees if you are patient with a coach they will turn it around but there has been enough great coaches who struggled early.  I think people don't want to be like the Cleveland Browns who fired Bill Belicheck who turned into the greatest football coach of all time.  You have coaches lie Wright, Bennett, Coach K. Beilein at UM and even Izzo who struggled early on in their careers.

[DC2345]

2 hours ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

than i guess i didn't under stand your post.  College and High School are so completely different, that if all high schools do something, doesn't mean at all that it happens at the college level

Trust me. I know this very well.

[CincyHoosier]

Anyone remember how upset we were after a sweet 16 loss...

[Maedhros]

3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

No there are no guarantees if you are patient with a coach they will turn it around but there has been enough great coaches who struggled early.  I think people don't want to be like the Cleveland Browns who fired Bill Belicheck who turned into the greatest football coach of all time.  You have coaches lie Wright, Bennett, Coach K. Beilein at UM and even Izzo who struggled early on in their careers.

Izzo was 22-8 his third season, won the Big Ten and made the Sweet Sixteen. He won the conference again in year four and made the Final Four. In year five he won the National Championship.

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, CincyHoosier said:

Anyone remember how upset we were after a sweet 16 loss...

Actually I was disappointed but not real angry after that loss.  I knew how good that Syracuse team was and the problems they would create for IU.  That team was a top 10 team most of the year and if it was not for a bad two week span that team would have been a top 3 seed.  I have been more angry after tournament losses than that one like Pepperdine, Cleveland St. Richmond, Colorado, BC, Missouri all in the first round.

[IU Scott]

3 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

Izzo was 22-8 his third season, won the Big Ten and made the Sweet Sixteen. He won the conference again in year four and made the Final Four. In year five he won the National Championship.

16-16

17-12

Pretty similar to Archie's first two seasons and Archie's 3rd season is not over yet so it is to early to judge this season.  Just saying that sometimes patience pays off and having faith means you have faith in things that you don't see at that time.

[Billingsley99]

37 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Actually I was disappointed but not real angry after that loss.  I knew how good that Syracuse team was and the problems they would create for IU.  That team was a top 10 team most of the year and if it was not for a bad two week span that team would have been a top 3 seed.  I have been more angry after tournament losses than that one like Pepperdine, Cleveland St. Richmond, Colorado, BC, Missouri all in the first round.

When the bracket came out I said if we beat Syracuse we will win National championship.  I truly thought that was only team that could beat us. 

[CapnRon]

Do people really keep forgetting that Crean wasn't recruiting well at all at the end, and getting no Indiana players?  Also, the players he left us with are still not playing well at all. 

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, CapnRon said:

Do people really keep forgetting that Crean wasn't recruiting well at all at the end, and getting no Indiana players?  Also, the players he left us with are still not playing well at all. 

Nobody is saying they want him back