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1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Starting Monday Chicago is implementing a stay at home mandate.  Only essential people are allowed to be out of their homes. Also is telling residents not to have your traditional Thanksgiving

Heard it was coming. Curious what surrounding suburbs and other counties do in area. 

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I watched as my mother(56) took her last breath 5 years ago. Laying in a hospital bed doped up on morphine.

The amount of effort she put into trying to get another pull of air. It appeared she could see death approaching and fought it but only for half a minute.

Squamous cell carcinoma of an unknown primary. Yeah, the unknown part of that diagnosis still haunts me. Diagnosed Jan 21. Even with treatments she didn’t make it another 4 months. 

Cisplatin. That was, according to her Oncologist, the only possible chance we had. My thoughts were, how could we possibly know how to fight something that has no origin. I questioned the oncologist but my mother reassured me that she had faith that this was the very best available person to help her.

Visit after visit. The treatments were supposed to be very aggressive. There were no Tumor(s). 2 really swollen lymph nodes. We had just went through the holidays with her being normal. At least on the surface. She had told us on Thanksgiving that she was going to get checked out. She didn’t feel sick at all. Just noticed the two lumps. 

She was hospitalized during the treatments for dehydration. The Cisplatin. I had read about it. It kills the kidneys. I watched her go from her normal 130lb frame to no more than skin covered bones. No hair.

Every time she was hospitalized, I would question why she was so doped up. She wouldn’t open her eyes. If she did she seen people and things that weren’t there. I had POA. Everything was supposed to go through me. Yet, nothing did. My questions and concerns were met with snark. They had a plan, I wasn’t allowed to know anything. 

She died in the hospital room. Death certificate says complications of renal failure. The Cisplatin killed her. 

My point? Cisplatin, COVID-19 Sars2, Cancer.... it’s all out there. But so is Great Whites, brain eating microbes, and isis when need be. 

I’ve asked questions from the many Dr people in my life. I, like others, am sick and tired of all the bs. If it’s gonna burn then let it burn baby. Stop delaying the inevitable with your form of Cisplatin. The preventive measure can kill you as well. I’ve seen it happen. 

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3 minutes ago, bluegrassIU said:

I was in the city a few weeks ago. A restaurant literally asked for my ID. When he saw I was from Kentucky, he said due to covid they could not serve me. 

I got booted out.  Lol

Been hearing plenty of things like that. Just a confusing and sad time. Bars/restaurants have been warned by the city if you don't comply....your liquor license might face some troubles. Bar/restaurant owners are literally on their last penny....no win situation. Comply with orders and lose your house. Don't comply and you lose your house, family....

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2 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Starting Monday Chicago is implementing a stay at home mandate.  Only essential people are allowed to be out of their homes. Also is telling residents not to have your traditional Thanksgiving

Suppose this will be like herd immunity for homicides, type thing? It's their only hope at this point.

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41 minutes ago, Inequality said:

I watched as my mother(56) took her last breath 5 years ago. Laying in a hospital bed doped up on morphine.

The amount of effort she put into trying to get another pull of air. It appeared she could see death approaching and fought it but only for half a minute.

Squamous cell carcinoma of an unknown primary. Yeah, the unknown part of that diagnosis still haunts me. Diagnosed Jan 21. Even with treatments she didn’t make it another 4 months. 

Cisplatin. That was, according to her Oncologist, the only possible chance we had. My thoughts were, how could we possibly know how to fight something that has no origin. I questioned the oncologist but my mother reassured me that she had faith that this was the very best available person to help her.

Visit after visit. The treatments were supposed to be very aggressive. There were no Tumor(s). 2 really swollen lymph nodes. We had just went through the holidays with her being normal. At least on the surface. She had told us on Thanksgiving that she was going to get checked out. She didn’t feel sick at all. Just noticed the two lumps. 

She was hospitalized during the treatments for dehydration. The Cisplatin. I had read about it. It kills the kidneys. I watched her go from her normal 130lb frame to no more than skin covered bones. No hair.

Every time she was hospitalized, I would question why she was so doped up. She wouldn’t open her eyes. If she did she seen people and things that weren’t there. I had POA. Everything was supposed to go through me. Yet, nothing did. My questions and concerns were met with snark. They had a plan, I wasn’t allowed to know anything. 

She died in the hospital room. Death certificate says complications of renal failure. The Cisplatin killed her. 

My point? Cisplatin, COVID-19 Sars2, Cancer.... it’s all out there. But so is Great Whites, brain eating microbes, and isis when need be. 

I’ve asked questions from the many Dr people in my life. I, like others, am sick and tired of all the bs. If it’s gonna burn then let it burn baby. Stop delaying the inevitable with your form of Cisplatin. The preventive measure can kill you as well. I’ve seen it happen. 

So sad. Appreciate your sharing your story with us. A memory that will never go away.

I watched the monitors in a hospital room as my father slipped away.  I feel your pain.

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15 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Starting Monday Chicago is implementing a stay at home mandate.  Only essential people are allowed to be out of their homes. Also is telling residents not to have your traditional Thanksgiving

From what I saw, technically its a 30 day stay at home advisory. And mandatory limit of 10 for all gatherings.

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On 11/13/2020 at 7:57 AM, mrflynn03 said:

Thanksgiving will be happening here.

Pretty fed up with being told what to do. 

Respectfully, bad idea, bad way to look at things. This is, obviously, a serious national public health crisis. It has nothing to do with telling you what to do, and everything to do with getting the Virus spread back under control. We have more cases and deaths than any other country, why? Because of the approach, the lack of approach, taken to deal with it.

Now we're into winter, now we have flu season, and guess what, now we have a major upsurge in cases all over the country. Saying I'll do what I want to do is the attitude that causes the Virus to spread and more people to die. People here I know have it. People here I know have died. It is really a very bad way to think about a national health emergency.

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44 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

We have more cases and deaths than any other country, why?

Per capita, which is really the only fair way to look at it, that's not true.

As for the raw numbers, maybe we test more and are reporting more truthfully (or over reporting the deaths by attributing the death of a person with other health issues to COVID), than other countries. No one really knows.

But I've said this before and I'll say it now. Mother Nature is going to get hers. We can take precautions, sure, but the death toll in the US is a far cry from the initial forecast. We have no real idea what the numbers would be if we'd done nothing or if we'd effected a total lockdown, so, at least to me, lamenting or downplaying the numbers is simply shouting at the sky.

I wear a mask at indoor places. I try to social distance. But I'm not going to stop doing what I do. We go out. We shop. We eat. We see our family.

Portraying COVID-19 as a death sentence is inaccurate, and, to me, a despicable scare tactic. I'm not saying you're doing that, @Hoosierhoopster, but it is being done in the media. The number of people who die solely from COVID is minute. People who are vulnerable should take extra precautions. But the mental health toll on the physically healthy is already monumental and growing. 

Were NOT going to "beat" this. Doesn't work that way. We try to stem the tide without too much daily disruption until a vaccine is widely available. 

That's all we can do...

Edited by IUFLA
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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Respectfully, bad idea, bad way to look at things. This is, obviously, a serious national public health crisis. It has nothing to do with telling you what to do, and everything to do with getting the Virus spread back under control. We have more cases and deaths than any other country, why? Because of the approach, the lack of approach, taken to deal with it.

Now we're into winter, now we have flu season, and guess what, now we have a major upsurge in cases all over the country. Saying I'll do what I want to do is the attitude that causes the Virus to spread and more people to die. People here I know have it. People here I know have died. It is really a very bad way to think about a national health emergency.

For 8 months, for whatever their reasons may be, I have watched millions of people fill the streets all across the country on an almost daily basis.

But now, after all of that, it's time to do what we are told. On top of that, telling me what I can do in my own house.  They can go pound sand. 

I'm not saying I dont think its serious, and I will do what we are ASKED to do, not TOLD to do, in public. But I doubt my gathering of less than 10 people will be a problem. 

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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Respectfully, bad idea, bad way to look at things. This is, obviously, a serious national public health crisis. It has nothing to do with telling you what to do, and everything to do with getting the Virus spread back under control. We have more cases and deaths than any other country, why? Because of the approach, the lack of approach, taken to deal with it.

Now we're into winter, now we have flu season, and guess what, now we have a major upsurge in cases all over the country. Saying I'll do what I want to do is the attitude that causes the Virus to spread and more people to die. People here I know have it. People here I know have died. It is really a very bad way to think about a national health emergency.

That kind of thinking is why we ar ein this situation right now.  I don't get the people who try to make a stand and talk about not telling me what to do.  These people don't realize their actions infringes on other people rights but they don't seem to care  about others.  How hard is it to wear a mask or maybe stay inside if needed.  If they could have just closed the country for 6 weeks it would have helped a lot but people worried about their constitutional rights over the well being of people.

Edited by IU Scott
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14 hours ago, IU Scott said:

That kind of thinking is why we ar ein this situation right now.  I don't get the people who try to make a stand and talk about not telling me what to do.  These people don't realize their actions infringes on other people rights but they don't seem to take about others.  How hard is it to wear a mask or maybe stay inside if needed.  If they could have just closed the country for 6 weeks it would have helped a lot but people worried about their constitutional rights over the well being of people.

Did everyone miss the months of mass gatherings all over the country?

And now they want to tell me what I should or shouldn't do in my own house. Absolutely no.  

That is the problem.  If they allowed that to go on then no, they arent telling me what to do.

I will follow the suggestions in public but they dont seem to be working do they?

Edited by mrflynn03
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58 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Per capita, which is really the only fair way to look at it, that's not true.

As for the raw numbers, maybe we test more and are reporting more truthfully (or over reporting the deaths by attributing the death of a person with other health issues to COVID), than other countries. No one really knows.

But I've said this before and I'll say it now. Mother Nature is going to get hers. We can take precautions, sure, but the death toll in the US is a far cry from the initial forecast. We have no real idea what the numbers would be if we'd done nothing or if we'd effected a total lockdown, so, at least to me, lamenting or downplaying the numbers is simply shouting at the sky.

I wear a mask at indoor places. I try to social distance. But I'm not going to stop doing what I do. We go out. We shop. We eat. We see our family.

Portraying COVID-19 as a death sentence is inaccurate, and, to me, a despicable scare tactic. I'm not saying you're doing that, @Hoosierhoopster, but it is being done in the media. The number of people who die solely from COVID is minute. People who are vulnerable should take extra precautions. But the mental health toll on the physically healthy is already monumental and growing. 

Were NOT going to "beat" this. Doesn't work that way. We try to stem the tide without too much daily disruption until a vaccine is widely available. 

That's all we can do...

That’s all we can do? Really? Yes, Mother Nature will run it’s course, but we are smart enough beings to limit the damage. You don’t just throw up your hands and give up. Especially when other countries have given us a map on how to effectively handle it. Japan did more, South Korea did more, Australia did more...I could go on. Japan actually did with less disruption to their way of life than we have had to our’s, but we have nothing to show for it. Countries are almost back to their normal way of life because they are beating Mother Nature. 

It’s not only social responsibility we are lacking it’s the correct attitude and smarter policies. So many want to blame the media, blame politics, blame scare tactics, blame numbers out of context, etc. But what is that doing? Absolutely nothing.

I talk to my son all the time about how if he needs to succeed at something he needs to put in the effort. You can’t just expect a positive outcome and do nothing. You can’t complain about your situation if you allowed it to happen by doing nothing.

Our situation right now is the equivalent to pouting, kicking the dirt, and saying “I’m tired of this stupid virus, so I give up”. 

Is this now our American attitude? We just give up when something is too hard? A nation that sacrificed their kids, spouses and siblings in war and now it’s too much if we’re asked to be careful? To miss a Thanksgiving? To not gather indoors? To wear a mask? 

I’m sorry I don’t accept that. I appreciate you all doing your social responsibility, but this is an all or nothing fight. Abdicating others lack of responsibility is counter productive. You can’t run a zone defense when 2 players on the floor insist on playing man to man. 

And I’m sorry, but anyone saying “I’m not going to let fear run my life” is the biggest heap of faux machismo BS. Nobody is saying that your life needs to be run by fear; it’s a matter of keeping cases down so your fellow man can work, can be safe, can get a hospital bed if needed, can send their kids to school. This virus will run our life, not fear, if we continue to defy scientific recommendation and preventative measures.

BTW,  Indiana just announce 8,000 new cases. Please stay safe wherever you are. 

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7 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

That’s all we can do? Really? Yes, Mother Nature will run it’s course, but we are smart enough beings to limit the damage. You don’t just throw up your hands and give up. Especially when other countries have given us a map on how to effectively handle it. Japan did more, South Korea did more, Australia did more...I could go on. Japan actually did with less disruption to their way of life than we have had to our’s, but we have nothing to show for it. Countries are almost back to their normal way of life because they are beating Mother Nature. 

It’s not only social responsibility we are lacking it’s the correct attitude and smarter policies. So many want to blame the media, blame politics, blame scare tactics, blame numbers out of context, etc. But what is that doing? Absolutely nothing.

I talk to my son all the time about how if he needs to succeed at something he needs to put in the effort. You can’t just expect a positive outcome and do nothing. You can’t complain about your situation if you allowed it to happen by doing nothing.

Our situation right now is the equivalent to pouting, kicking the dirt, and saying “I’m tired of this stupid virus, so I give up”. 

Is this now our American attitude? We just give up when something is too hard? A nation that sacrificed their kids, spouses and siblings in war and now it’s too much if we’re asked to be careful? To miss a Thanksgiving? To not gather indoors? To wear a mask? 

I’m sorry I don’t accept that. I appreciate you all doing your social responsibility, but this is an all or nothing fight. Abdicating others lack of responsibility is counter productive. You can’t run a zone defense when 2 players on the floor insist on playing man to man. 

And I’m sorry, but anyone saying “I’m not going to let fear run my life” is the biggest heap of faux machismo BS. Nobody is saying that your life needs to be run by fear; it’s a matter of keeping cases down so your fellow man can work, can be safe, can get a hospital bed if needed, can send their kids to school. This virus will run our life, not fear, if we continue to defy scientific recommendation and preventative measures.

BTW,  Indiana just announce 8,000 new cases. Please stay safe wherever you are. 

Amen to that

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15 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

That’s all we can do? Really? Yes, Mother Nature will run it’s course, but we are smart enough beings to limit the damage.

And if you look at the initial projections, we have "limited the damage" ...

Did you miss the part where I said I wear a mask? I social distance? Those are the concessions I'm making. 

20 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

You don’t just throw up your hands and give up.

I don't think I said "give up" at all. My post was about balancing between the hysterical people who want a total lockdown versus the ignorant people who don't want to make any concessions. You're confusing "giving up" and being realistic, I guess.

22 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Japan did more,

Yes, and the mental health aspect is taking its toll..

And it's doing so here too...Overdoses, alcoholism, domestic disputes all up.

You have as yet to explain exactly what it is you'd have our local, state, and federal governments do beyond what's already in place. I'd like to hear what you're thinking.

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38 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

And if you look at the initial projections, we have "limited the damage" ...

Did you miss the part where I said I wear a mask? I social distance? Those are the concessions I'm making. 

I don't think I said "give up" at all. My post was about balancing between the hysterical people who want a total lockdown versus the ignorant people who don't want to make any concessions. You're confusing "giving up" and being realistic, I guess.

Yes, and the mental health aspect is taking its toll..

And it's doing so here too...Overdoses, alcoholism, domestic disputes all up.

You have as yet to explain exactly what it is you'd have our local, state, and federal governments do beyond what's already in place. I'd like to hear what you're thinking.

1. Limited from 2.2 million, a number projected if we did absolutely nothing. Many other countries have limited damage exponentially better. 

2. I thank you for that. Abdicating other’s lack of responsibility (Not saying you are) doesn’t help our fight though.

3. You said that’s “that’s all we can do”, I took that as “let’s just accept our reality.” 

4. You’re right. We have mental health issues here too. What do we have to show for these sacrifices? We’re at worst point since the pandemic began, which will lead to more mental health issues while Japan can recover for theirs. 

5. CONTACT TRACING. CONTACT TRACING. CONTACT TRACING. There has been a scientific call for contact tracing since this spring. This is how all those countries dug themselves out. The Atlantic article I posted a couple of pages back thoroughly explains this and other strategies successful countries have used, and will answer many of the questions you have. 

On another note, hope I wasn’t sounding combative towards you personally @IUFLA as I consider you a friend. You treat every debate respectfully and I admire that about you. 

Edited by tdhoosier
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3 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Per capita, which is really the only fair way to look at it, that's not true.

As for the raw numbers, maybe we test more and are reporting more truthfully (or over reporting the deaths by attributing the death of a person with other health issues to COVID), than other countries. No one really knows.

But I've said this before and I'll say it now. Mother Nature is going to get hers. We can take precautions, sure, but the death toll in the US is a far cry from the initial forecast. We have no real idea what the numbers would be if we'd done nothing or if we'd effected a total lockdown, so, at least to me, lamenting or downplaying the numbers is simply shouting at the sky.

I wear a mask at indoor places. I try to social distance. But I'm not going to stop doing what I do. We go out. We shop. We eat. We see our family.

Portraying COVID-19 as a death sentence is inaccurate, and, to me, a despicable scare tactic. I'm not saying you're doing that, @Hoosierhoopster, but it is being done in the media. The number of people who die solely from COVID is minute. People who are vulnerable should take extra precautions. But the mental health toll on the physically healthy is already monumental and growing. 

Were NOT going to "beat" this. Doesn't work that way. We try to stem the tide without too much daily disruption until a vaccine is widely available. 

That's all we can do...

Denial and disinformation is really pointless. It is so utterly absurd that people have made Covid a stupid political issue, a don’t tell me what to do issue. People can quibble on how to measure the clearly overwhelming evidence of US Covid cases of n relation to basically everywhere, the huge upsurge in cases again; the obvious indisputable fact that we had a terrible policy - a lack of policy and a state of denial resulting in failure to address Covid nationally because of the stupid, moronic desire to politicize an obvious serious and indisputable national health crisis, we can all go back through this thread and read the multiple false and misleading representations downplaying the virus and how poof it would just go away, frankly it’s pointless. Yes if we wear masks and co to ur to practice the protocols that have clearly been demonstrated to curb cases and stop upsurges we can all help while the vaccine gets closer to market, that’s the point 

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47 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

1. Limited from 2.2 million, a number projected if we did absolutely nothing. Many other countries have limited damage exponentially better. 

But that was my point. No one can project how many lives were saved by the actions we did take. And no one can with any certainty say what the numbers would be if we'd went full blown nationwide lockdown. There's no baseline here to measure against, but we're right around 10% of what the projected total was. A vaccine is just around the corner.

 

47 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

3. You said that’s “that’s all we can do”, I took that as “let’s just accept our reality.” 

It is the reality.

 

47 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

5. CONTACT TRACING. CONTACT TRACING. CONTACT TRACING. There has been a scientific call for contact tracing since this spring. This is how all those countries dug themselves out. The Atlantic article I posted a couple of pages back thoroughly explains this and other strategies successful countries have used, and will answer many of the questions you have. 

I'm not sure contact tracing can be effective in the US for 2 reasons. Were too far down the road according to this article from The Atlantic. And comparing contact tracing in South Korea, Iceland, and New Zealand to the United States is a bit of a reach. You cited contact tracing in China a few posts ago, but is that accurate? In The Atlantic article I cited one of the reasons the US efforts on contact tracing haven't been successful is because of "mistrust of the government" particularly among African Americans and Hispanics who according to the article "twice as susceptible" to the virus. I would imagine there are quite a few Chinese that distrust their government, but aren't brave enough to refuse to give information, or even say it publicly.

And no worries. We've respectfully disagreed before, and we're still friends...I always appreciate your opinions and views...

 

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In defense of @mrflynn03while I disagree with his position of celebrating as usual on Thanksgiving, he is 100% spot on about one thing.  And, that is that the media didn't say boo when massive congregations of people were gathering in the streets every night for 3-4 months straight.  It's simply not right to pick and choose what gatherings you criticize.  It's hypocritical and leads to much of the resentment some people have.

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Funny thing, the conflicting information. Especially when some of it comes from people you know very well that should have first hand info. People that practice in this very town, some for decades. People that are also very much involved with athletes. The tailgate conversations are one sided and very much conflict the current narrative. Strange thing indeed.

 

 

 

 

 

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