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Reacher

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I think what they want to stay away from is having a huge family gathering.  I know when I was a kid we would have around 40 people at our house with aunt, uncle's and cousin.  We don't have that any longer and just have my parents, my kids and my brothers family.  I would think just having immediate family and a gathering around 10-12 would be fine.

 

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2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I think what they want to stay away from is having a huge family gathering.  I know when I was a kid we would have around 40 people at our house with aunt, uncle's and cousin.  We don't have that any longer and just have my parents, my kids and my brothers family.  I would think just having immediate family and a gathering around 10-12 would be fine.

 

Correct.  But, the same people/media that are calling for small Thanksgiving gatherings should have been outraged about the large street gatherings all spring and summer.  Yet, they never said a word about it.  That's my point.

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2 minutes ago, BDB said:

I had a furlough week this week, but had to go in and get some parts prepped to ship.  Got a call tonight that the shipping guy tested positive, so I have to go get tested Monday even though Ii do not have any symptoms.

Hope you get good results

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14 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Correct.  But, the same people/media that are calling for small Thanksgiving gatherings should have been outraged about the large street gatherings all spring and summer.  Yet, they never said a word about it.  That's my point.

That should have never happened just like the ND field storming

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35 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Correct.  But, the same people/media that are calling for small Thanksgiving gatherings should have been outraged about the large street gatherings all spring and summer.  Yet, they never said a word about it.  That's my point.

When you say large street gatherings are you speaking of the protests or street parties?  Just curious.  😊

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@5fouls thanks for clarifying my point and articulating better than me. Aggravation clouded my mind. Just frustrated with the hypocrisy. I mentioned it earlier but my Thanksgiving will be less than 10 people, maybe just 4. 

The last few years has been my wife and I and her long time client and her husband, who considers herself our fairy godmother.  We make the food and it's like the best she's ever had. I usually work Thanksgiving day so going to their house is becoming a tradition because its close and not going to lie, watching people enjoy food you have prepared is pretty satisfying.

She doesn't have many holidays left. 

We go to our parents later in the year and do a combo Thanksgiving/Christmas.  

Agree though I wouldn't do a big family event right now. 

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17 hours ago, IUFLA said:

But that was my point. No one can project how many lives were saved by the actions we did take. And no one can with any certainty say what the numbers would be if we'd went full blown nationwide lockdown. There's no baseline here to measure against, but we're right around 10% of what the projected total was. A vaccine is just around the corner.

 

It is the reality.

 

I'm not sure contact tracing can be effective in the US for 2 reasons. Were too far down the road according to this article from The Atlantic. And comparing contact tracing in South Korea, Iceland, and New Zealand to the United States is a bit of a reach. You cited contact tracing in China a few posts ago, but is that accurate? In The Atlantic article I cited one of the reasons the US efforts on contact tracing haven't been successful is because of "mistrust of the government" particularly among African Americans and Hispanics who according to the article "twice as susceptible" to the virus. I would imagine there are quite a few Chinese that distrust their government, but aren't brave enough to refuse to give information, or even say it publicly.

And no worries. We've respectfully disagreed before, and we're still friends...I always appreciate your opinions and views...

 

Going back to the crutch argument. We aren’t doing a good job. We didn’t do a good job. And it seems like we have no plans to do a good job.

I think it’s as clear as day when comparing us to other countries and looking at the position we are in right now. Yes, those countries have their problems too. But in many aspects of this pandemic, we rate as one of the worst countries, whether it’s based on total numbers oR per capita. 

Regarding contact tracing, this is true, but as i posted a few times, many pages back, there are ways to contact trace anomalously. The main obstacle is starting in area where cases are low, but we keep on missing the boat on that. We missed the boat in rural areas this past spring and summer. The rest of the states missed the boat in the summer. And we are going to miss the boat if we come down from this spike because no plan is in place. Do you not think this is a problematic trend? I mean the results speak for themselves. 

You always seem to pluck one small reason or one objection In an argument that isn’t significant enough to change the desired outcome. You’ve stated:

about Australia: Melbourne had to shut down. So what? So did we, but it worked for them.

about Japan: They had high cases of mental depression. So what? So do we, but it worked for them.

about contact tracing: African Americans and Latinos are distrustful. So let’s not consider the plan that has proof of working????

About China: who can believe them? 

Why are we looking for excuses to not be successful? Not sure if that’s your intention but to me it seems like you’re being a devil’s advocate just for the sake of being a devil’s advocate to support the belief that “we’ve done all we can” - I can’t accept that; I think accepting that is giving up when giving up is not an option.  

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14 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Correct.  But, the same people/media that are calling for small Thanksgiving gatherings should have been outraged about the large street gatherings all spring and summer.  Yet, they never said a word about it.  That's my point.

Not sure what planet you're living on Fouls lol. There were all kinds of repeated "media" statements, you know since we're inclined to bash the "media" generally, repeatedly noting that large social gatherings / protests could spur the Virus and pointing out gatherings / protests where people were wearing masks, as opposed to those large "gatherings" when people weren't.

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14 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

Just in my little corner of the world. 6 friends/family members all in Chicagoland tested positive in the last 24 hours. All have been flying around, doing small get togethers, etc...

All I can say gang is be safe. Just like with any virus. It travels. 

Hope your friends and family get well soon.

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38 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Hope your friends and family get well soon.

They all seem fine. Up and at it. Problem is quarantine...notifying any and everyone they've come into contact with,etc...and of course 1 has 2 small kids. Don't know what the rules are for their school district. Just a mess honestly. 

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49 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Going back to the crutch argument. We aren’t doing a good job. We didn’t do a good job. And it seems like we have no plans to do a good job.

I think it’s as clear as day when comparing us to other countries and looking at the position we are in right now. Yes, those countries have their problems too. But in many aspects of this pandemic, we rate as one of the worst countries, whether it’s based on total numbers oR per capita. 

Regarding contact tracing, this is true, but as i posted a few times, many pages back, there are ways to contact trace anomalously. The main obstacle is starting in area where cases are low, but we keep on missing the boat on that. We missed the boat in rural areas this past spring and summer. The rest of the states missed the boat in the summer. And we are going to miss the boat if we come down from this spike because no plan is in place. Do you not think this is a problematic trend? I mean the results speak for themselves. 

You always seem to pluck one small reason or one objection In an argument that isn’t significant enough to change the desired outcome. You’ve stated:

about Australia: Melbourne had to shut down. So what? So did we, but it worked for them.

about Japan: They had high cases of mental depression. So what? So do we, but it worked for them.

about contact tracing: African Americans and Latinos are distrustful. So let’s not consider the plan that has proof of working????

About China: who can believe them? 

Why are we looking for excuses to not be successful? Not sure if that’s your intention but to me it seems like you’re being a devil’s advocate just for the sake of being a devil’s advocate to support the belief that “we’ve done all we can” - I can’t accept that; I think accepting that is giving up when giving up is not an option.  

I have a tagline on my email. It's a quote from Henry Ford...

"Don't find fault, find a remedy."

I try to practice that and believe me, I work in a industry where there's plenty of remedy that needs to be found.

You seem obsessed with assessing blame for some reason. I do subscribe to the notion that "those who don't understand history are bound to repeat it" but continually looking to blame doesn't solve anything. It just widens the divide. Understand history, and use the lessons learned...

We should have initiated a travel ban right from the start...Oh, wait! We did! And we were widely panned for it.

We should have instituted an internal travel ban. The cities with the largest amount of cases should have been shut down, including ALL travel. But while NYC did lockdown, the lack of an internal travel ban has them back in dangerous territory. 

Who should have invoked that ban? The federal government? State? Local?Well, it never happened, and the contact tracing (get it anonymously? Really? Think that one would pass the Constitutionality test?) hasn't happened on a wide scale. So we are where we are.

What did we focus on? Well, martialing resources, both human and supplies, to the right places. Working on vaccines and treatments, and protecting the most vulnerable. 

As far as the spread goes, how many lives have been sacrificed by the numerous protests/riots/gatherings (including those in DC this weekend) in cities like Minneapolis and Kenosha...two very hot spots right now...was the Constitutional right of those people to assemble more dear than the innocent lives it will without a doubt cost? Should federal/state/local governments moved to shut them down?

My point in all of this is, we HAVE to find the balance between this awful pandemic and normal life. I don't think it's fair to compare numbers from countries that aren't even as big as some of our states. 

I don't play "devil's advocate." I'm a realist who sees the world for what it is. I bring up the situation in Japan because it's relevant and lends to my point about balance and not having the cure be more damaging than the disease. 

Worry more about where we go from here rather that constantly looking in the rear view mirror...

As Rafiki said in "The Lion King" "It's in the past."

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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Not sure what planet you're living on Fouls lol. There were all kinds of repeated "media" statements, you know since we're inclined to bash the "media" generally, repeatedly noting that large social gatherings / protests could spur the Virus and pointing out gatherings / protests where people were wearing masks, as opposed to those large "gatherings" when people weren't.

Do you live in the Louisville media market?  Maybe the news spoke against that in Houston, but not here.  

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Comparing outdoor gatherings with mostly masked attendees and indoor gatherings is ridiculous. We know it’s much more problematic to have indoor gatherings with eating/drinking involved. Our Thanksgiving is just my wife and her parents, but it’s not happening this year.

Sure, we would probably be fine, but if everyone says that and thinks that they should be the exception, then we will have a huge spike in cases. 

 

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38 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I have a tagline on my email. It's a quote from Henry Ford...

"Don't find fault, find a remedy."

I try to practice that and believe me, I work in a industry where there's plenty of remedy that needs to be found.

You seem obsessed with assessing blame for some reason. I do subscribe to the notion that "those who don't understand history are bound to repeat it" but continually looking to blame doesn't solve anything. It just widens the divide. Understand history, and use the lessons learned...

We should have initiated a travel ban right from the start...Oh, wait! We did! And we were widely panned for it.

We should have instituted an internal travel ban. The cities with the largest amount of cases should have been shut down, including ALL travel. But while NYC did lockdown, the lack of an internal travel ban has them back in dangerous territory. 

Who should have invoked that ban? The federal government? State? Local?Well, it never happened, and the contact tracing (get it anonymously? Really? Think that one would pass the Constitutionality test?) hasn't happened on a wide scale. So we are where we are.

What did we focus on? Well, martialing resources, both human and supplies, to the right places. Working on vaccines and treatments, and protecting the most vulnerable. 

As far as the spread goes, how many lives have been sacrificed by the numerous protests/riots/gatherings (including those in DC this weekend) in cities like Minneapolis and Kenosha...two very hot spots right now...was the Constitutional right of those people to assemble more dear than the innocent lives it will without a doubt cost? Should federal/state/local governments moved to shut them down?

My point in all of this is, we HAVE to find the balance between this awful pandemic and normal life. I don't think it's fair to compare numbers from countries that aren't even as big as some of our states. 

I don't play "devil's advocate." I'm a realist who sees the world for what it is. I bring up the situation in Japan because it's relevant and lends to my point about balance and not having the cure be more damaging than the disease. 

Worry more about where we go from here rather that constantly looking in the rear view mirror...

As Rafiki said in "The Lion King" "It's in the past."

I am worried about where we are going. That’s the whole point of why I post on this thread. I am honestly shocked that you have missed that in my replies.

First off, neither I or many of the scientists have defended the gathering of the mass gatherings from a COVID stand point. I didn’t and I don’t think it’s wise. Assigning blame to media for not recognizing the risks frequently enough isn’t a green light to do the same. It’s not safe. Period. For one who’s not interested in “assigning blame”, this is a rather hypocritical point you’ve made. But I  accept that point because we should learn from it. (It doesn't appear that we are, but we should)

That said, I’m not obsessed with assigning blame. I’m obsessed with recognizing the absolutely crappy situation we are in right now and learning from that. We aren’t in this situation as a result of doing a good job. Plain and simple. Call that blame if you want; it’s reality. 

If you honestly think differently then I have no idea of what to say. 

I am obsessed with doing more. I am obsessed with learning from successful blueprints and applying that. I am obsessed with not doing the same things that led us back to the position we are in. Isn’t that the definition of insanity? 

We all love basketball. Do we just accept the fact that we finished in 10th place? Do we not want better? Do we not want the powers that be to improve our program given our standing? Do we look a PSU as a team we want to model our program off of or do we look at MSU? Or do we just say it is what it is? Do we say “well, we got Romeo and TJD......that’s good enough....let’s continue down this path?”

Come on, IUFLA....you gave me a Lion King quote “it’s in the past” that contradicted what you quoted 3 paragraphs above: “Those who don’t understand history are bound to repeat it” (which ironically WE LITERALLY JUST DID as a country). Which is it? Given the context of our conversation all my points are in alignment with the latter. You are a self-admitted problem solver, and from my conversations with you, I gather you are a very intelligent man given your profession. Can you just answer this question: Can we do do better? Because you just belittled my desire for this as not being a realist. If your answer really is “no” then we can just end the conversations and agree to disagree. And don’t worry, by answering yes I won’t view that as assigning blame to anyone. 

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3 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Not sure what planet you're living on Fouls lol. There were all kinds of repeated "media" statements, you know since we're inclined to bash the "media" generally, repeatedly noting that large social gatherings / protests could spur the Virus and pointing out gatherings / protests where people were wearing masks, as opposed to those large "gatherings" when people weren't.

Wait, are you seriously claiming the national media treats all mass gatherings equally in how they portray them regarding covid? Come on now. I love you but come on.

And its both sides, to be clear.

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20 hours ago, 5fouls said:

In defense of @mrflynn03while I disagree with his position of celebrating as usual on Thanksgiving, he is 100% spot on about one thing.  And, that is that the media didn't say boo when massive congregations of people were gathering in the streets every night for 3-4 months straight.  It's simply not right to pick and choose what gatherings you criticize.  It's hypocritical and leads to much of the resentment some people have.

Not only the media but certain classes of people, who should be leading by example, seem all to willing to ignore these precautions. And to your point, makes no sense why larges churches have to be closed or are severely limited when stores (liquor? mattress? pot?) and even strip clubs can remain open. 

23 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Denial and disinformation is really pointless. It is so utterly absurd that people have made Covid a stupid political issue, a don’t tell me what to do issue. People can quibble on how to measure the clearly overwhelming evidence of US Covid cases of n relation to basically everywhere, the huge upsurge in cases again; the obvious indisputable fact that we had a terrible policy - a lack of policy and a state of denial resulting in failure to address Covid nationally because of the stupid, moronic desire to politicize an obvious serious and indisputable national health crisis, we can all go back through this thread and read the multiple false and misleading representations downplaying the virus and how poof it would just go away, frankly it’s pointless. Yes if we wear masks and co to ur to practice the protocols that have clearly been demonstrated to curb cases and stop upsurges we can all help while the vaccine gets closer to market, that’s the point 

You keep binging up politics in a round about way.  You may think it is an indisputable fact there was a terrible policy. I don't agree so, I'd argue, that makes it your opinion- not an indisputable fact. If there was terrible policy- was that at the local, state or national level? Where in the Constitution does it say the federal government should regulate a health crisis? Even states have such varied areas that unilateral measures often make no sense but the states at least have a health infrastucture/ agencies in place.  To use your language, I'd say its an indisputable fact some states had terrible, moronic policies and it would be stupid and moronic to argue otherwise.

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18 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Not only the media but certain classes of people, who should be leading by example, seem all to willing to ignore these precautions. And to your point, makes no sense why larges churches have to be closed or are severely limited when stores (liquor? mattress? pot?) and even strip clubs can remain open. 

You keep binging up politics in a round about way.  You may think it is an indisputable fact there was a terrible policy. I don't agree so, I'd argue, that makes it your opinion- not an indisputable fact. If there was terrible policy- was that at the local, state or national level? Where in the Constitution does it say the federal government should regulate a health crisis? Even states have such varied areas that unilateral measures often make no sense but the states at least have a health infrastucture/ agencies in place.  To use your language, I'd say its an indisputable fact some states had terrible, moronic policies and it would be stupid and moronic to argue otherwise.

 

The “terrible policy” would be at the national level. We literally have a leader who thinks we are “turning the corner,” when it’s clear that cases are increasing at a shocking level. The White House is a f#$cking cesspool of COVID infections and inaction, and there are still - miraculously- people willing to defend our woefully inadequate response. 

In case people have forgot, we are a nation that historically gets things done. We make shit happen. We put people on the moon and defeat facism across the globe. But now we shrug our shoulders about controlling a pandemic that other countries have already vanquished. We have simply give up. It’s too hard. 

If this is too political, so be it. I just don’t care anymore. I’m over pandering to people who are too ignorant, insensitive, or impatient to deal with this. 

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5 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

 

In case people have forgot, we are a nation that historically gets things done. We make shit happen. We put people on the moon and defeat facism across the globe. But now we shrug our shoulders about controlling a pandemic that other countries have already vanquished. We have simply give up. It’s too hard. 

 

The moon landing keeps coming to mind when people keep dismissing that we couldn’t have possibly done a better job to combat the virus.

It’d be like NASA scrapping the mission after realizing the Apollo 11 was too big and heavy to land on the moon. Of course they didn’t do that - they problem solved and invented the lunar module. 

We honestly can’t find an effective way to contact trace like other countries did? Everything starts with a plan....the first step is having the desire to even create a plan. That is not happening at a national level - the only level with the money and resources to make it happen. 

Don’t we still pride ourselves on American ingenuity?

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3 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

The moon landing keeps coming to mind when people keep dismissing that we couldn’t have possibly done a better job to combat the virus.

It’d be like NASA scrapping the mission after realizing the Apollo 11 was too big and heavy to land on the moon. Of course they didn’t do that - they problem solved and invented the lunar module. 

We honestly can’t find an effective way to contact trace like other countries did? Everything starts with a plan....the first step is having the desire to even create a plan. That is not happening at a national level - the only level with the money and resources to make it happen. 

Don’t we still pride ourselves on American ingenuity?

Nope, it’s too hard. And the golf links await! Also, the media is mean.

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1 hour ago, Reacher said:

Not only the media but certain classes of people, who should be leading by example, seem all to willing to ignore these precautions. And to your point, makes no sense why larges churches have to be closed or are severely limited when stores (liquor? mattress? pot?) and even strip clubs can remain open. 

You keep binging up politics in a round about way.  You may think it is an indisputable fact there was a terrible policy. I don't agree so, I'd argue, that makes it your opinion- not an indisputable fact. If there was terrible policy- was that at the local, state or national level? Where in the Constitution does it say the federal government should regulate a health crisis? Even states have such varied areas that unilateral measures often make no sense but the states at least have a health infrastucture/ agencies in place.  To use your language, I'd say its an indisputable fact some states had terrible, moronic policies and it would be stupid and moronic to argue otherwise.

Oh Lord, you’re entitled to your own opinion, you’re not entitled to your own facts. The Covid “policy” was to downplay it and claim it would just go away. Just stop. But I’ll stop too because I gave you an opening to get into politics again. 

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