IUFLA Posted September 8, 2021 Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 4 hours ago, Reacher said: If America truly is the land of the free, there has to be freedom to make these individual choices. That freedom has made the US great and impacted the entire world for the better in some manner. Countless Americans have made the ultimate sacrifice for these freedoms. It may well be that there is a downside to that freedom but if we limit freedoms, we change the identity of our country. We might as well find a new motto. Can't like this enough... Many of our freedoms are being undermined and abused and if it continues, they'll be gone... 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostin76 Posted September 8, 2021 Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 Chances of a Breakthrough Infection This is one reason why I support and encourage vaccines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted September 8, 2021 Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 13 minutes ago, Lostin76 said: Chances of a Breakthrough Infection This is one reason why I support and encourage vaccines. I support and encourage it as well... I think where I disagree with some is in directing derision at those who, for whatever reason, don't want to take it... If we're ever going to heal as a nation, that has to stop...we have to get back to civility... If we can... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted September 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 This has been mentioned as a reason for vaccine hesitancy. We'll know the results in a year... https://nypost.com/2021/09/07/nih-to-study-how-covid-19-vaccine-impacts-menstrual-cycle/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted September 8, 2021 Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 14 hours ago, IUFLA said: Can't like this enough... Many of our freedoms are being undermined and abused and if it continues, they'll be gone... We talking about Covid or marriage here? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted September 8, 2021 Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, 5fouls said: We talking about Covid or marriage here? You know, I never kidded you about the marriage thing because I view it as a long running joke between you and long time members, but I'll admit when I was listening to a random playlist on YouTube music and The Greg Kihn Band's "The Breakup Song" came on, that picture of Scooby Doo popped into my head... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted September 8, 2021 Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: I support and encourage it as well... I think where I disagree with some is in directing derision at those who, for whatever reason, don't want to take it... If we're ever going to heal as a nation, that has to stop...we have to get back to civility... If we can... I have a real problem with the segment of people that demand we have things like mask requirements but refuse to get vaccinated. My kids are vaccinated. My son has been exposed once already this school year, my daughter twice. People in the community started going spastic about the need for a mask mandate at school. This weekend, giving into pressure, the school Corp put in place a mandatory mask policy through the end of September. My kids are in high school. Everyone at their school is eligible for the vaccine. I have an issue with parents crying to the school board to protect their children with masks, when there are vaccines out there people are not taking advantage of. So, basically, because some people want to exercise their right to not get vaccinated, my kids LOSE their right to go to school without an uncomfortable and prohibitive face covering. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted September 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Lostin76 said: Chances of a Breakthrough Infection This is one reason why I support and encourage vaccines. "In Britain, many people have become comfortable with the current Covid risks. The vaccines make serious illness rare in adults, and the risks to young children are so low that Britain may never recommend that most receive the vaccine. Letting the virus continue to dominate life, on the other hand, has large costs." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted September 8, 2021 Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 19 hours ago, Reacher said: -snip- Lastly, FOIA requests show Fauci was indeed funding research at Wuhan and subsequently lied about it. He is the wrong leader with his conflicts of interest. https://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted September 8, 2021 Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 On 9/4/2021 at 8:30 AM, Reacher said: Even if 100% of the US was vaccinated, we would still have the variants. Covid is going to be around for the long haul. Going to have to adapt to it. Hopefully it's severity continues to decline with each variation. Listened to one of our local doctors and she lost one of her patients to the coronavirus....however surprisingly this patient did not die from COVID-19 or one of it's varients but a Coronavirus that has been knowingly around since the 1960's. I can't remember the actual name of it but basically she said that this virus is here to stay. We hope to get better at treating it and perhaps preventing it but these viruses (especially ones as transmissable as this one) will likely never be exterminated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted September 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 2 hours ago, HoosierFaithful said: From the Intercept article- "One of the grants, titled “Understanding the Risk of Bat Coronavirus Emergence,” outlines an ambitious effort led by EcoHealth Alliance President Peter Daszak to screen thousands of bat samples for novel coronaviruses. The research also involved screening people who work with live animals. The documents contain several critical details about the research in Wuhan, including the fact that key experimental work with humanized mice was conducted at a biosafety level 3 lab at Wuhan University Center for Animal Experiment — and not at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, as was previously assumed. The documents raise additional questions about the theory that the pandemic may have begun in a lab accident" The excerpt above appears to be at odds with your source. I'm sure more info will trickle out over time. I stand by my belief that Fauci is too conflicted to be in his present position. Here is the link to the grant- https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21055989-understanding-risk-bat-coronavirus-emergence-grant-notice from the Intercept article which clearly shows Fauci and his NIH gave money to Daszak / EcoHealth that ended up at WIV. Goldstein admits as much. "PROJECT NARRATIVE- Most emerging human viruses come from wildlife, and these represent a significant threat to global public health and biosecurity - as demonstrated by the SARS coronavirus pandemic of 2002-03 and an ongoing SARS-like epidemic in the Middle East. This project seeks to understand what factors allow animal Coronaviruses to evolve and jump into the human population by studying virus diversity in a critical group of animals (bats), at sites of high risk for emergence (wildlife markets) in an emerging disease hotspot (China)." "Project Summary.... Test predictions of CoV inter-species transmission. Predictive models of host range (i.e. emergence potential) will be tested experimentally using reverse genetics, pseudovirus and receptor binding assays, and virus infection experiments across a range of cell cultures from different species and humanized mice." I'm not going to get into the semantics of which virus is which or what qualifies as gain of function research but it appears to me that from the beginning people were trying to hide the simple fact that Fauci was involved in funding bat coronavirus research in China, including engineering those viruses. I do not believe he was open and honest about his involvement. From https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/appearance-of-a-conflict-of-interest "Appearance of a conflict of interest means the impression that a reasonable person might have, after full disclosure of the facts, that an Appointee's judgment might be significantly influenced by outside interests, even though there may be no actual Conflict of Interest." I think I'm a reasonable person and believe we are way past the appearance of a conflict of interest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted September 8, 2021 Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 On 9/7/2021 at 11:54 AM, HoosierFaithful said: Stats don't tell the whole story. I'm not going to say things have been handled well here (we can point to the fact we have done a poor job promoting theraputics as an area where people wait well too long to get treatment, politicizing vaccines first by Biden and Harris saying if Trump tells American's to take it they won't, then those on the right who distrust the govt pushing vaccinations later, and the ever changing policies on if masks are necessary or how helpful they were and the mandates) all have done an awful job that I'm not sure were the same factors faced in other countries. The US in general is a country that greatly distrusts the media, the government, and honestly the politicization of science in this country even before Covid makes it ripe for anybody to be super successful in a govt run vaccine campaign. The challenges here are far far more complex vs other countries. Not saying there isn't distrust and similar sentiments in other countries but the US probably more so than any other country in the world has a history of people telling the govt to leave them alone. More personal freedoms, freedom of choice, etc. It cuts both ways. So I wouldn't say that is alarming nor even awful considering how many factions of this country have been abused and done wrong by the govt. As for the second graph...first off the US is no where nearly as homogenous as those European nations because of it's racial diversity than those countries. Obviously they have minority groups but no where nearly as diverse nor in quantities as the US population. When we see minorities die at 2 to 3 times the rate of white Americans who would mostly be more comparable to the European ancestors genetically that will make a skew in the numbers. Genetics vary greatly across racial groups. Unfortunately the US also is and has had the worlds largest and growing obesity levels as well....which accounts for a larger proportion of deaths. This can't be discounted as obesity and the resulting health conditions that result from it (HBP, heart disease, respitory disease, diabetes etc) are key factors in Covid death rates. Also the US is vastly different geographically and seasonality compared to them. We have seen this over and over in the US that Florida, Texas, and Sunbelt have seen greater Covid rates during the summer when people are forced indoor due to the sweltering heat and then the opposite up north when fall/winter forces people together during cold weather. The US is huge and could comprise of all those countries and more so a one size fits all approach to managing the crisis doesn't work the same as what those individual countries can do. Lastly, it can't be ignored that the US also has an open southern border allowing hundreds of thousands of people a month and letting them spread out across the country is having an effect?? No other country is doing this. Pew research shows April 2020 there were 16,182 migrant encounters and July 2021....199,777. If you want to travel from Canada to the US it was shut down, same from most of Europe and finally you had to have vaccine card or multiple clean tests. Do they monitor the immigrants coming in? Nope. Really smart move. You also have different reporting techniques used across countries and honestly there are many different factors that can go into those numbers. It is also a very short period not even a month. Extrapulate it out further and there could be other factors that could come up and see. Times when it spiked in Europe and not here. I don't like hot takes....taking numbers and purposely either manipulating them or over-simplifying them to fit a narrative is not a productive method for furthering how best to go about improving the situation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted September 8, 2021 Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 5 hours ago, Lostin76 said: Chances of a Breakthrough Infection This is one reason why I support and encourage vaccines. I have a hard time believing those odds. Right now, I have two vaccinated friends that are COVID positive with symptoms. Granted, neither of them are hospitalized. I'm only aware of one unvaccinated friend who has had COVID twice. I probably have 8-10 unvaccinated friends/acquaintances with COVID at the moment. I'm with you on the vaccine lessening symptoms and hospitalizations, but I don't have 10,000 friends, so either the breakthrough odds are higher than advertised or I have really unlucky friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted September 8, 2021 Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 28 minutes ago, FKIM01 said: I don't have 10,000 friends I heard you were difficult to get along with. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted September 8, 2021 Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 1 hour ago, 5fouls said: I heard you were difficult to get along with. Funny...your third ex-wife said the same about you... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostin76 Posted September 8, 2021 Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 5 hours ago, Reacher said: "In Britain, many people have become comfortable with the current Covid risks. The vaccines make serious illness rare in adults, and the risks to young children are so low that Britain may never recommend that most receive the vaccine. Letting the virus continue to dominate life, on the other hand, has large costs." Bolded the most important part. As far as letting the virus “dominate life,” I don’t. I’m not going to cry if I have to wear a mask somewhere or show my vaccine status. I’ve never had to wear a mask before, but it’s fine. As far as vaccine status goes, I’ve (or my parents) have dealt with that for a good part of my life. Elementary school and the military required tons of vaccines. I’ve always accepted that as a part of participating in society. I do have a problem with accepting 1,500 preventable deaths each day from COVID. Especially since so many people had assured me that this would all be over after the inauguration. I have an uncle who was willing to bet his life on it. I hope it doesn’t come to that, but as the saying goes, “Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.” 1 hour ago, FKIM01 said: I have a hard time believing those odds. Right now, I have two vaccinated friends that are COVID positive with symptoms. Granted, neither of them are hospitalized. I'm only aware of one unvaccinated friend who has had COVID twice. I probably have 8-10 unvaccinated friends/acquaintances with COVID at the moment. I'm with you on the vaccine lessening symptoms and hospitalizations, but I don't have 10,000 friends, so either the breakthrough odds are higher than advertised or I have really unlucky friends. It is only a three areas I believe, but it’s nice to have some good news for once instead of doom and gloom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted September 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 1 minute ago, Lostin76 said: Bolded the most important part. As far as letting the virus “dominate life,” I don’t. I’m not going to cry if I have to wear a mask somewhere or show my vaccine status. I’ve never had to wear a mask before, but it’s fine. As far as vaccine status goes, I’ve (or my parents) have dealt with that for a good part of my life. Elementary school and the military required tons of vaccines. I’ve always accepted that as a part of participating in society. I think it is pretty well known that the vaccine benefits older and at risk groups. Personally, I know no one that disagrees with that although apparently some do. The reason I pulled that excerpt was to let people know the UK apparently has a different take on vaccinating kids. There seems to be a big push here to mask and vaccinate kids who are at very low risk. I know some kids will have complications and or die from Covid but there were kids dying from the flu long before Covid and we didn't take these measures. Anyways, it will be interesting to see how these varying approaches play out in different countries. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted September 8, 2021 Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted September 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2021 (edited) The CDC quietly changed the definition of vaccine. Sep. 1, 2021: The CDC changes its definition of “vaccine,” removing the standard that vaccines produce immunity. Now they just need to “stimulate the body’s immune response.” The vaccines actually aren't vaccines since they don't stop infection and transmission? Basically a therapeutic given in advance of an illness? https://sharylattkisson.com/2021/09/read-cdc-changes-definition-of-vaccines-to-fit-covid-19-vaccine-limitations/ Edited September 9, 2021 by Reacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted September 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2021 Great to see a focus here. I brought this up way back talking about far uvc light. Hepa air filters and ultraviolet light can help get rid of germs. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/09/coronavirus-pandemic-ventilation-rethinking-air/620000/ In other news, hybrid immunity (from having both COVID and the vaccine) appears to be rather potent- https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677208/new-studies-find-evidence-of-superhuman-immunity-to-covid-19-in-some-individuals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted September 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2021 From a conference call I was on with Scott Gottlieb, MD (former FDA Commissioner, on the board of Pfizer)- Delta wave seems to have peaked in the south but not yet in the Northeast. Good news for this wave and future waves- Based on a sample of 1.4 million blood donation specimens collected in the US from July 2020 through May 2021, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that the combined (infection- and vaccine-induced) SARSCoV-2 seroprevalence in the US was at 83.3 percent. The level of seroprevalence has likely increased since the study was conducted as authors estimated that as of May 2021, there were 2.1 infections per each reported case. Since May 31, there have been some 7,012,409 additional reported infections in the US. With 75% of US adults having at least 1 vaccine dose and 40-50% of people in the US having had Covid, the disease will collapse rather quickly. It does a good job finding vulnerable (unvaccinated) pockets -one of which is now children. Children are likely to drive future infections since they are less vaccinated and will be getting tested more now they are back in school. Will continue to see lower hospitalizations and deaths due to their generally better health. Pfizer and Moderna developing separate vaccines for kids 0-5 and 6-11 which is actually the same vaccine but at 1/3 of the dose. Could possibly be approved by Dec of this year. Gottlieb believes the Pandemic phase will pass later this year / over the winter and then will become endemic like flu. Expects another mild flu season this year but eventually we will be in for a whopper of a flu season. Flu combined with Covid will likely drive future changes of behavior. Boosters will help broaden immunity and benefit at risk populations but still a very open question if they will be needed/ required for everyone. Israel decided to give everyone boosters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted September 9, 2021 Report Share Posted September 9, 2021 (edited) So, who is the Delta variant killing? These comparison numbers from Indiana give some clue. On 8/12, here were the CUMULATIVE (March 2020-today) death percentages in Indiana since the start of the pandemic by age group 0-19 = .1% 20-29 = .2% 30-39 = .6% 40-49 = 1.8% 50-59 = 5.7% 60-69 = 15.3% 70-79 = 25.8% 80+ = 50.4% Here are the CUMULATIVE (March 2020-today) death percentages as of today, roughly 30 days, for the same age groups. Keep in mind that these do not just represent the last 30 days, but rather from the start of the pandemic. 0-19 = .1% 20-29 = .2% 30-39 = .7% 40-49 = 2.1% 50-59 = 6.0% 60-69 = 15.6% 70-79 = 25.7% 80+ = 49.6% What do these numbers tell us. It tells me that people over 80 are no longer dying of Covid in order for the CUMULATIVE percentage to drop nearly a full point in less than 30 days. It also tells me that Delta is not killing any more people under 30 than what the original strain did. But, for those between 30-70, the Delta variant is killing more than the original strain. I'll let everyone reach their own conclusion on why that is. I have a pretty good idea. Edited September 9, 2021 by 5fouls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted September 9, 2021 Report Share Posted September 9, 2021 I think your 50-59 number in the first set is off, based on the rest of your numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted September 9, 2021 Report Share Posted September 9, 2021 4 hours ago, Reacher said: The vaccines actually aren't vaccines since they don't stop infection and transmission? Basically a therapeutic given in advance of an illness? Hmmm....a 'therapeutic'. Maybe now we can all get behind it. 😎 ...I kid....I kid. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted September 9, 2021 Report Share Posted September 9, 2021 2 hours ago, FKIM01 said: I think your 50-59 number in the first set is off, based on the rest of your numbers. It was. Thank you. I carried over the % from the 40 age group. I've corrected it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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