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Reacher

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1 hour ago, dgambill said:

Comparing small pox which killed roughly 30% of the people that got it to Covid 19 that kills roughly .5% is like comparing apples to oranges. Not a good example in my view. I suspect that the Supreme Court in 2021 will look quite differently at this then 1905. The Supreme Court also ruled in 1927 in Buck vs Bell it was ok to sterilize a young women because her offspring would be a burden on public welfare which led to over 60,000 forced sterilizations (many many suspect and racially motivated). Doesn't mean a more modern court would still rule the same way considering the threat of Covid to most people is basically the equivilant of a bad cold. I think vaccines are wonderful, including thankful for this one which has saved many lives. But eliminating someone's right to work...seems a bit extreme. I'm sure it is all going to the courts so we will just see how it plays out.

The families of over 1,500 people that die each day would disagree with you about COVID not being a good example. And I just posted above about one of my employees being unvaccinated. I did not eliminate her right to work. I helped her get an exemption so she could remain employed with us. 

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3 hours ago, mrflynn03 said:

 

I just don't appreciate having things forced on me. 

Tying this statement to a post I made earlier.  My kids dont like to have to wear masks to school because not enough of their classmates are vaccinated to prevent an outbreak among students.  

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53 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

The families of over 1,500 people that die each day would disagree with you about COVID not being a good example. And I just posted above about one of my employees being unvaccinated. I did not eliminate her right to work. I helped her get an exemption so she could remain employed with us. 

That was very considerate of you. I'm sure she welcomed your hospitality that you would go out of your way to assist her and hear out her concerns. We all need to be willing to listen and have considerate discussions on important matters and I appreciate how very civil this board is on such a hot button topic.

That said the new mandate there is no exemptions for federal employees and contractors of federal employees. So that is quite different. (well maybe unless you are in a Union like USPS then COVID doesn't matter) As for those families...factually it doesn't matter what they think. Facts don't have feelings. COVID is not even close to being comparable to Smallpox....so while I share in their pain (I too have had extended family lost to this virus I'm not going to pretend that COVID is even in the realm of deadliness like Smallpox). So I stand by my statement. Agree....I hate anyone is dying...which is why it bugs the crap out of me there isn't more talk about theraputics and work into developing more safe and effective ways to save lives. Why when people test positive they aren't sent for treatment right away and often are told to go home and go to the hospital if it gets worse and not told about things like Regeneron and other therapies that have reduced hospitalization and death by over 70%.

Edited by dgambill
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48 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Tying this statement to a post I made earlier.  My kids dont like to have to wear masks to school because not enough of their classmates are vaccinated to prevent an outbreak among students.  

That's understandable but I also think there is a difference between a mask mandate and using my livelihood as leverage to force me into something I have concerns about. 

I've known 2 people who have died from complications after getting the vaccine.  Was it the vaccine?  I don't know. But we are buying my BIL tomorrow and he was one of them. 

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57 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Tying this statement to a post I made earlier.  My kids dont like to have to wear masks to school because not enough of their classmates are vaccinated to prevent an outbreak among students.  

I'm not trying to be a smart @ss...far from it. Trying to understand. Vaccines for students are not to protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated. Measles for example is like 97% effective in preventing you from getting measles. The point is to protect those that CAN'T be vaccinated due to auto-immune disease and other illnesses like cancer etc from an outbreak and catching it from unvaccinated (because vaccinated don't get it). COVID doesn't fall into this category..seeing as BOTH vaccinated and unvaccinated can carry and spread covid. Your child would be just as likely to catch covid from a vaccinated child as unvaccinated seeing as the vaccine currently doesn't provide immunity in the sense that say Measles vaccine does. That is what is weird to me. Your child is just as likely to get covid and go to school and spread it as an unvaccinated child. An outbreak is just as easily to happen with a class of fully vaccinated kids as unvaccinated. Granted those kids may not get seriously ill (most kids don't anyways but that isn't the arguement). What are your kids fearful of? They have been vaccinated. Even if they get Covid they are protected by the vaccine from getting seriously ill....even the small small chance they would have got ill at all without the vaccine. I understand getting vaccinated. I support it. But what is with the fear of vaccinated people of unvaccinated. The virus isn't going to die and go away with everyone getting vaccinated. It already has mutated into several variants that get around the vaccines and are still transmissable.

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49 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I'm not trying to be a smart @ss...far from it. Trying to understand. Vaccines for students are not to protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated. Measles for example is like 97% effective in preventing you from getting measles. The point is to protect those that CAN'T be vaccinated due to auto-immune disease and other illnesses like cancer etc from an outbreak and catching it from unvaccinated (because vaccinated don't get it). COVID doesn't fall into this category..seeing as BOTH vaccinated and unvaccinated can carry and spread covid. Your child would be just as likely to catch covid from a vaccinated child as unvaccinated seeing as the vaccine currently doesn't provide immunity in the sense that say Measles vaccine does. That is what is weird to me. Your child is just as likely to get covid and go to school and spread it as an unvaccinated child. An outbreak is just as easily to happen with a class of fully vaccinated kids as unvaccinated. Granted those kids may not get seriously ill (most kids don't anyways but that isn't the arguement). What are your kids fearful of? They have been vaccinated. Even if they get Covid they are protected by the vaccine from getting seriously ill....even the small small chance they would have got ill at all without the vaccine. I understand getting vaccinated. I support it. But what is with the fear of vaccinated people of unvaccinated. The virus isn't going to die and go away with everyone getting vaccinated. It already has mutated into several variants that get around the vaccines and are still transmissable.

Is it fair to say that when the hospitalization rate goes down then restriction measures loosen? 

Is it fair to say that when hospitalization rate is down, case numbers are down?

Is it fair to say when restrictive measures loosen then it makes all our lives easier and much less stressful because we don’t have to navigate quarantining, missing school, missing work, etc.?

Is it fair to say a step towards less restrictive measures help get these supply chain issues jump started a little quicker? (Mind you, my suppliers are severely backed up not because they don’t have enough employees….it’s the employees calling out of work for the issues I mentioned immediately above). 

Death is horrible. Even at a low percentage. But this is not all about death. This is about more. It’s about the economy. It’s also about lingering side effects. Potential long term health issues and expenses that will plague our healthcare system for years to come and raise premiums on health insurance (as if we don’t spend enough on this already). 

So many ask what are you afraid of if you’re vaccinated? I’m not so sure fear is the emotion I’m feeling. It’s annoyance. It’s the DELAY back to normal because we have a way to quicken our way out of this. 

So, in context with that - The CDC study that was released today (per The Hill):

BREAKING: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) just released results from a study that found unvaccinated individuals were 11 times more likely to die from COVID-19 than fully vaccinated people.  The research, spanning more than 600,000 people in 13 jurisdictions, also determined that unvaccinated populations were over 10 times more likely to be hospitalized — figures that underscore COVID-19 vaccines protect recipients from deaths and hospitalizations. The study also showed that unvaccinated people were 4 1/2 times more likely to contract COVID-19 than the fully vaccinated.

Edited by tdhoosier
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Echoing a point earlier: this thread has largely been very civil and, indeed, we clearly have quite a range of views here.  Thank you - it makes our jobs easier. 
 

as a moderating team, we have had more than a few discussions about this thread. It’s almost been locked a few times. Maybe I’m naive, but I like to think that people can listen and engage in meaningful discussion about tough issues. Please continue to post in good faith, respect each other, and find opportunities to work in jokes about Purdue. Our OT board has quickly become my favorite in the off-season and I appreciate learning, especially those of you who I may disagree with. 

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1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

Is it fair to say that when the hospitalization rate goes down then restriction measures loosen? 

Is it fair to say that when hospitalization rate is down, case numbers are down?

Is it fair to say when restrictive measures loosen then it makes all our lives easier and much less stressful because we don’t have to navigate quarantining, missing school, missing work, etc.?

Is it fair to say a step towards less restrictive measures help get these supply chain issues jump started a little quicker? (Mind you, my suppliers are severely backed up not because they don’t have enough employees….it’s the employees calling out of work for the issues I mentioned immediately above). 

Death is horrible. Even at a low percentage. But this is not all about death. This is about more. It’s about the economy. It’s also about lingering side effects. Potential long term health issues and expenses that will plague our healthcare system for years to come and raise premiums on health insurance (as if we don’t spend enough on this already). 

So many ask what are you afraid of if you’re vaccinated? I’m not so sure fear is the emotion I’m feeling. It’s annoyance. It’s the DELAY back to normal because we have a way to quicken our way out of this. 

So, in context with that - The CDC study that was released today (per The Hill):

BREAKING: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) just released results from a study that found unvaccinated individuals were 11 times more likely to die from COVID-19 than fully vaccinated people.  The research, spanning more than 600,000 people in 13 jurisdictions, also determined that unvaccinated populations were over 10 times more likely to be hospitalized — figures that underscore COVID-19 vaccines protect recipients from deaths and hospitalizations. The study also showed that unvaccinated people were 4 1/2 times more likely to contract COVID-19 than the fully vaccinated.

I’m all for vaccinations. I think the way we are going about it is horrible policy. Your telling me the best way to reduce over crowded hospitals is to fire nurses and staff who are critical in caring for patients is the best way to take pressure off the hospital system. Are you telling me the best way to get supply chains fixed is to add to worker shortages by firing people. Are you telling me it helps the economy to alienate 80 million consumers by not letting them dine in, go to a show, and basically remove them from the economy. Do you think it makes people feel more secure in making the decision to get vaccinated by saying we will force you to do it. Do you think us vs them will be the way to win hearts and minds. Could we maybe take a different approach to solving the problem with Covid? Can we develop and promote therapeutics. Can we discuss the importance of a healthy immune system and healthy living. I think vaccines are a tremendously wonderful thing for people but this process we have been undergoing is just flawed. Hey…how about we ask Donald Trump to help us promote it….giving him credit for his part in his vision to fund and fast track vaccines and keeping his promise to have a vaccine that has saved maybe millions of lives. I remember Clinton and Bush promoting important causes together. Maybe you will reach people that are crazy hardcore Trump supporters. Maybe also be transparent of conflict of interests with those at the top and with reporting the side effects and deaths from the vaccine and people will get over their fear. Lots of things can increase the effectiveness of saving lives but even so will any of that change the fact Covid will always be here with us and people will die from it. A good question might be will the restrictions and govt allow things to get back to normal if we do all get vaccinated or get to the point only a few tens of thousands of people die from it a year like the flu? I wonder. If I can make myself clear…I support vaccinations but not mandatory vaccines for everyone. I just think mandating this stuff is horrible policy…among many other ways both administrations and especially CDC/Fauci and others have handled things.

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1 hour ago, mrflynn03 said:

Members of Congress, staff exempt from Biden COVID-19 vaccine mandate

Someone try to explain the reasoning behind this. 

Caveat: I work in politics, so I will try to answer this with my insight in a perhaps informative way without sounding too political, but that is... kind of hard.

Biden is currently negotiating with Congressional Republicans on a wide range of issues.  Many of them are ardently opposed to vaccine mandates - which Biden probably doesn't appreciate, but that's not the point.  At a time when issues like the debt ceiling are about to come around and need GOP votes, perhaps he doesn't want to poke them in the eye with a mandate when there are bigger fights that he desperately needs their help with on the horizon.

Alternatively, he might just not legally be able to - the article mentions that Members of Congress and the federal judiciary aren't bound, and those are the other two branches of government, so it would make sense his powers don't extend there.

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13 hours ago, tdhoosier said:

Death is horrible. Even at a low percentage. But this is not all about death. This is about more. It’s about the economy. It’s also about lingering side effects. Potential long term health issues and expenses that will plague our healthcare system for years to come and raise premiums on health insurance (as if we don’t spend enough on this already). 

 

We are really starting to be more concerned about the insidious, long term effects. Many people don’t seem to care about this, b/c it’s the flu, it’s a liberal conspiracy. It’s all about scoring argument points.

The same people don’t  care about long term effects, just individual freedom over what’s good for society. They don’t seem to care about health systems or healthcare workers forced to take care of anti-vax people who have *suddenly* had a change of heart and now desperately want care. Never mind that they didn’t trust the same healthcare system a month or a week ago. 

We are damn lucky that the people that work in healthcare (and don’t get me started on teachers, those poor teachers) are as decent as they are. Healthcare workers in many low vaccination states are exhausted and frustrated, but sure they should just keep their mouths shut and treat people who mock them. 

COVID’s impact is much more far reaching than we think, but sure let’s treat it like the flu and bicker about masks and vaccines. 

Edited by Lostin76
Removed a jab at TV personalities
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20 hours ago, HoosierFaithful said:

No basis in science... for vaccines?  This whole conversation has gotten a bit warped.

No basis in science for excluding postal workers and members of congress from mandatory vaccines being imposed on much of the US. . Last I heard, those classes did not have different DNA from the rest of us that protects them. 

And when Fauci was asked why people with natural immunity were required to be vaccinated, his reply was "I don't have a firm answer for that" 

Because IT IS NOT BASED ON SCIENCE! 

Do any other developed countries not count natural immunity? I'm not aware of any. 

Edited by Reacher
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20 hours ago, tdhoosier said:

Really? Mine and your definition of failure must be drastically different. 

The effectiveness is waning. It was originally 95%+, now 75% or so (because of the delta variant). I'm addition, we know that effectiveness decreases over time as well. I heard something like 5%/mo

Sorry-just saw you confused falling with failing

Edited by Reacher
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13 hours ago, Lostin76 said:

We are really starting to be more concerned about the insidious, long term effects. Many people don’t seem to care about this, b/c it’s the flu, it’s a liberal conspiracy. It’s all about scoring argument points.

The same people don’t  care about long term effects, just individual freedom over what’s good for society. They don’t seem to care about health systems or healthcare workers forced to take care of anti-vax people who have *suddenly* had a change of heart and now desperately want care. Never mind that they didn’t trust the same healthcare system a month or a week ago. 

We are damn lucky that the people that work in healthcare (and don’t get me started on teachers, those poor teachers) are as decent as they are. Healthcare workers in many low vaccination states are exhausted and frustrated, but sure they should just keep their mouths shut and treat people who mock them. 

COVID’s impact is much more far reaching than we think, but sure let’s treat it like the flu and bicker about masks and vaccines. 

Just so you know…there are millions in the health care industry that aren’t and don’t want to be vaccinated. Who will either be forced to get medical treatment against their wishes or lose their job. Who see up close both the positives and negatives of both the virus and the vaccine. I think that is fair to point out. 

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1 hour ago, Reacher said:

No basis in science for excluding postal workers and members of congress from mandatory vaccines being imposed on much of the US. . Last I heard, those classes did not have different DNA from the rest of us that protects them. 

And when Fauci was asked why people with natural immunity were required to be vaccinated, his reply was "I don't have a firm answer for that" 

Because IT IS NOT BASED ON SCIENCE! 

Do any other developed countries not count natural immunity? I'm not aware of any. 

He also said we will have to look into that. What the hell has he been doing for the last year if not studying the effects of Covid and studying the immunity responses of the over 40 million that have had and recovered from Covid. Is it perhaps because it doesn’t fit his narrative that everyone needs to be vaccinated. 

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20 minutes ago, Reacher said:

With all due respect, this achievement you’re celebrating comes on the back of results you seem to be arguing against, or at least diminishing efficacy of. High vaccination rates and vaccine passports. Unless I’m misconstruing your beliefs. It just seems that 80% of what you share is drenched in skepticism. @5fouls has posted some great info graphics about the good vaccines are doing only for some to waive it off in some weird effort to justify/defend a principle of freedom over logic. But what good is freedom if it’s based on flawed logic? 

I know many are not going to view themselves as being illogical, but when you have  data like in the article posted, I just feel like it’s right in front of our faces. This, is what I just don’t get. It’s not a ‘narrative’ perpetrated by the MSM, Fauci, our government etc. because every other western developed country are more or less making similar recommendations and putting the similar policies forward. It’s not like we are the only country taking this path. If we were, I’d be skeptical as hell too, but this is not the situation. Unless you think all governments and leading scientists are in cahoots to just F with us for fun. “Let’s make them wear masks because it will piss off citizens and be hilarious”. None of this skepticism adds up, IMO. 

Interestingly the article correlates vaccine acceptance to mistrust of public health initiatives/government. Denmark has a moderately high trust in their authorities (on this specific topic) and they seem to be doing well because they are following the what a vast majority of scientific recommendations, rather than chasing outlying data/opinion down a rabbit hole.

Most importantly, perhaps Denmark has shown the number other countries need to strive for: 86%. This remains to be seen.

Quote

Petersen said trust in public health has been "incredibly high" and "completely stable" in Denmark, which helped vaccine rollout efforts across the country. He added that while the government will continue to monitor the situation, he thinks mutual trust between Danish authorities and the public is high enough to weather what comes next.

 

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3 hours ago, Reacher said:

No basis in science for excluding postal workers and members of congress from mandatory vaccines being imposed on much of the US. . Last I heard, those classes did not have different DNA from the rest of us that protects them. 

And when Fauci was asked why people with natural immunity were required to be vaccinated, his reply was "I don't have a firm answer for that" 

Because IT IS NOT BASED ON SCIENCE! 

Do any other developed countries not count natural immunity? I'm not aware of any. 

So, first, USPS is mandated, despite earlier confusion: https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-mandate-for-100m-workers/

Earlier, I outlined a logical example why Members of Congress are not included.  Exempt is likely not the right way to look at it - "not legally possible to be included in the mandate" is probably more appropriate.

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45 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said:

So, first, USPS is mandated, despite earlier confusion: https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-mandate-for-100m-workers/

Earlier, I outlined a logical example why Members of Congress are not included.  Exempt is likely not the right way to look at it - "not legally possible to be included in the mandate" is probably more appropriate.

I get what you are saying but the separate rules are  problem. Do postal workers not need vaccine passports to eat in restaurants? Fly on planes (I believe that is coming)? Carve outs are problematic whenever and however they are used. 

Why doesn't Congress and the USPS voluntarily agree to abide by the rules the rest of the country is being forced to? 

I believe in the servant part of public servants. Public office should not be a way to enrich  themselves and their families which unfortunately has too often become the case of late. Our leaders should not have better health care plans than the average person. Time and again we see certain groups getting preferential treatment and that undermines what is supposed to be a fair and equal Society

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It isn’t necessarily a carve out. That implies they were intentionally excluded. We have no evidence that they were.  Again, USPS is included - we can move past that. Members of Congress and their staff (Legislative) and Court staffers (Judiciary) aren’t, per one of the articles earlier.  The President likely has no power to compel actions of a separate branch of government. 
 

I agree, they should voluntarily abide by the same vaccine mandates. That seems logical. 

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6 hours ago, dgambill said:

Just so you know…there are millions in the health care industry that aren’t and don’t want to be vaccinated. Who will either be forced to get medical treatment against their wishes or lose their job. Who see up close both the positives and negatives of both the virus and the vaccine. I think that is fair to point out. 

Just so you know, I’ve worked in healthcare research for the last twenty five years. I run a healthcare innovation center at a very highly ranked School of Medicine. We study adverse events, barriers to treatment, predictive analytics, machine learning, health information technology, etc. One of the things we are always interested in is provider burnout. We work with dozens of major universities nationally and a few internationally. 

And no, we are not forcing people to get medical treatment against their will. As I’ve already mentioned twice, I’ve helped a post-doc get a medical exemption so she can keep her job.

I know it makes for great headlines to stir up the freedom or else crowd, but that’s just not the policy on the ground in most places. 

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4 hours ago, Lostin76 said:

Just so you know, I’ve worked in healthcare research for the last twenty five years. I run a healthcare innovation center at a very highly ranked School of Medicine. We study adverse events, barriers to treatment, predictive analytics, machine learning, health information technology, etc. One of the things we are always interested in is provider burnout. We work with dozens of major universities nationally and a few internationally. 

And no, we are not forcing people to get medical treatment against their will. As I’ve already mentioned twice, I’ve helped a post-doc get a medical exemption so she can keep her job.

I know it makes for great headlines to stir up the freedom or else crowd, but that’s just not the policy on the ground in most places. 

Hospitals down here have two week notice to show proof of first vaccination. It’s happening. So far medical exemptions only…many have had their religous exemption denied. Anyways I don’t want to argue my friend. We both want the same thing…most don’t want to force people.
 

Ive actually been hoping the Novavax vaccine will be approved very soon. Heard from many many non Vaxxed they are waiting for a non-mRNA approved vaccine. Novavax uses a different protein subunit approach which is similar to traditional vaccines and novavax has looked very very promising. Trials have shown it to be more effective against varients and with much less serious side effects seen in the mRNA vaccines. Since it is also not developed using fetal stem cell lines should appease even religous exempties. People that have been wanting a more “traditional” vaccine who doesn’t use mRNA and the proteins are not made by your body but are already in the vaccine should be thrilled to take this. Also those allergic to ingrediants in moderna and Pfizer shot will have an alternative. There will be those that won’t get vaxxed regardless but this one is very promising and may make a great booster as well.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/619276/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thenewdaily.com.au/news/2021/09/09/novavax-ready-to-ship-vaccines-to-australia/amp/

Edited by dgambill
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9 hours ago, HoosierFaithful said:

It isn’t necessarily a carve out. That implies they were intentionally excluded. We have no evidence that they were.  Again, USPS is included - we can move past that. Members of Congress and their staff (Legislative) and Court staffers (Judiciary) aren’t, per one of the articles earlier.  The President likely has no power to compel actions of a separate branch of government. 
 

I agree, they should voluntarily? abide by the same vaccine mandates. That seems logical. 

If I'm going to be forced into getting it then they should too. 

Getting pretty tired and fed up with these so called leaders. There is a reason why smart people don't become politicians. 

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