Coronavirus

[dgambill]

Maybe I don't get it. If you are worried about your health care workers transmitting COVID to the patients then why not have ALL employees get tested daily/weekly? We just saw the numbers from Israel and here is info from one of their hospitals where they do testing. https://ascopost.com/issues/september-10-2021/breakthrough-covid-19-infection-in-fully-vaccinated-health-care-workers/ We know vaccinated workers can contract it...and we also know vaccinated people carry as high viral loads than unvaccinated and can spread it. You are no more protected from an vaccinated person than unvaccinated. Your PROTECTION is your own VACCINATION and whatever precautions you wish to take (masking/distancing/washing hands etc). I would assume a hospital would be doing some type of mandatory testing for it's employees...unless they are just pretending to care. I don't know...I don't work at one but my neighbor is a doctor had his nurse test positive after being vaccinated and who unfortunately she spread it to the doctor himself who was vaccinated before she found out. Neither were very sick, just minor ailments and the vaccine did it's job . But clearly it can be spread even in a pretty sterile hospital environment while wearing masks etc. I don't want anyone to contract it and safety should be parimount...but I just don't see an unvaccinated person (who may already have had COVID being any more dangerous)...especially if you just test them. 

edit:changed higher viral loads to as high....seems we found some clarification about this study

Edited September 30, 2021 by dgambill

[NotIThatLives]

1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

My friend works for IU Health and a large majority of patients polled said they wanted they wanted to be treated by vaccinated nurses, techs and doctors. 

So something has to give in some direction. 

Hospitals are ultimately a business, and clouding the narrative in this discussion is the evaluation of feedback from their customers and employees. The whole thing may suck but hospitals can't be in the business of ignoring patient feedback to appease a minority of their staff (97% of staff are vaccinated for IU Health). Not to mention that many patients in a hospital are compromised in some way and are at much greater risk of infection (as are staff) than your average joe in your normal environment outside of a healthcare setting.

Only speaking for myself, but if I had a choice of a vaccinated doctor or an unvaccinated doctor delivering my next kid, or one operating on my heart, I'm going to request the one who is vaxed every day of the week and twice on Sunday. And I'm guessing many would make that same decision. 

I understand the argument and the perception that hospitals are being heavy handed in their mandates, but as we've found out many times in this pandemic, no solution is going to appease everybody. Hard choices are being made.

Wasn't there a study posted just about a week ago showing vaccinated carry up to 250xs the viral load before becoming symptomatic?

[IUFLA]

Just now, NotIThatLives said:

Wasn't there a study posted just about a week ago showing vaccinated carry up to 250xs the viral load before becoming symptomatic?

Yeah, but I think that was taken out of context...Link

[dgambill]

Again I'll link this article. The risk isn't zero if you've already had COVID in getting the vaccine. It may very well be worth it to LOT'S of people. And I absolutely think those people should take the shot. I however support those that have had it and weighed the benefits vs the risks and choose not to. https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101

 The real risk in vaccinating people who have had covid-19 “is of doing more harm than good,” she says.

A large study in the UK32 and another that surveyed people internationally33 found that people with a history of SARS-CoV-2 infection experienced greater rates of side effects after vaccination. Among 2000 people who completed an online survey after vaccination, those with a history of covid-19 were 56% more likely to experience a severe side effect that required hospital care.33

Patrick Whelan, of UCLA, says the “sky high” antibodies after vaccination in people who were previously infected may have contributed to these systemic side effects. “Most people who were previously ill with covid-19 have antibodies against the spike protein. If they are subsequently vaccinated, those antibodies and the products of the vaccine can form what are called immune complexes,” he explains, which may get deposited in places like the joints, meninges, and even kidneys, creating symptoms.

Other studies suggest that a two dose regimen may be counterproductive.34 One found that in people with past infections, the first dose boosted T cells and antibodies but that the second dose seemed to indicate an “exhaustion,” and in some cases even a deletion, of T cells.34 “I’m not here to say that it’s harmful,” says Bertoletti, who coauthored the study, “but at the moment all the data are telling us that it doesn’t make any sense to give a second vaccination dose in the very short term to someone who was already infected. Their immune response is already very high.”

 

Again...not saying they shouldn't get vaxxed...absolutely they should think about it. 2nd time around may not go as well as the first....studies have shown those unvaccinated but have had covid are still 2x more likely to be hospitalized and higher chance of death. Just saying they do have things to consider and it makes perfect sense why they might come down on the side to not get vaxxed.

[NotIThatLives]

6 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Yeah, but I think that was taken out of context...Link

"The paper does not conclude that fully vaccinated healthcare workers carry 251 times the viral load of the virus compared to unvaccinated healthcare workers. Rather, it concludes that “viral loads of breakthrough Delta variant infection cases were 251 times higher than those of cases infected with old strains detected between March-April 2020.”"

So they are carrying 251 times the load of delta compared to other strains.  Still damning.  

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, Reacher said:

Good article discussing issues facing the supply chain-

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/29/business/supply-chain-workers/index.html

This is idiotic! Govt bureaucracy doing what they do best. Screw things up. Not just screwing these poor workers over but citizens of their countries. They are freakin vaccinated even...Let them take one of those quick analysis pcr tests and move along. They've already been quarantined for months at sea for crying out loud....who would they catch COVID from??? The seagulls? Same thing with truckers etc. For crying out loud we are so worried about POWER that we care nothing for those trying to make a living and the rest of us watching inflation wipe out our paychecks. Thank God we have a comic relief thread. After reading this thread I can go there so I don't blow a gasket lol!!

Edited September 30, 2021 by dgambill

[Hoosier51]

1 hour ago, Lostin76 said:

I should add, this is no different than what we do with the flu vaccine EVERY year. You can either get it, or refuse to get it and go work someplace else. This is not unique to COVID - as much of this is not different than other vaccines in the past.

Only thing different this time around is politicians making asses of everyone to score points and divide us. 

Hmm getting a flu shot is a condition of employment? I'm not saying there isn't places that require you to get one but i've never heard of any.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Hoosier51

[Hoosier51]

I know that this is anecdotal, so take it with a grain of salt. My soon to be sister in-law who is an ER nurse in South Carolina was telling me that they almost get the same amount of covid patients that are vaxed and unvaxed in the hospital she works, and if fact the only recent death was an obese vaccinated senior citizen.

Not sure if this older article has been posted. From this article it looks like the vaccine isn't all that effective toward the Delta variant. It is a little bit older article so it hasn't caught up the circus that is the booster shots.

Ultra-Vaxxed Israel’s Crisis Is a Dire Warning to America (yahoo.com)

[dgambill]

7 minutes ago, Hoosier51 said:

I know that this is anecdotal, so take it with a grain of salt. My soon to be sister in-law who is an ER nurse in South Carolina was telling me that they almost get the same amount of covid patients that are vaxed and unvaxed in the hospital she works, and if fact the only recent death was an obese vaccinated senior citizen.

Not sure if this older article has been posted. From this article it looks like the vaccine isn't all that effective toward the Delta variant. It is a little bit older article so it hasn't caught up the circus that is the booster shots.

Ultra-Vaxxed Israel’s Crisis Is a Dire Warning to America (yahoo.com)

Everything points to the vaccines prevent hospitalization and death WAY WAY more than unvaccinated. I don't think that is a question. I don't want to bury that...it's very important. That said there is nothing to show (mostly because few people are studying how many vaccinated are getting and transmitting the virus) that vaccination will keep you from getting the virus or spreading it. Lot's of things are questionable I think about the vaccine (and it seems the people in charge including the web browsers and media giants) do a good job of hiding the info and pushing those searches pages way down. One thing I don't think is questionable is that it is saving lives...even if it isn't 100% effective. I think most of the discussions and back and forth is the mandating it and around these theraputics and their place in the discussion.

[Reacher]

2 hours ago, Lostin76 said:

Same in our hospital system. Patients have expressed an overwhelming preference for their caregivers to be vaccinated. So much so that they would switch their care elsewhere to be get that assurance. That is a factor for sure, but the number one factor is patient safety. Many of these patients are immunocompromised. We take our commitment to the patient very seriously. 

And we don’t want to lose staff, but if the staff would rather not take a shot, then they can do that and work elsewhere. 

 

Once again, I think the issue is why not follow the science?

Do you agree that natural antibodies are just as effective, and possibly much more effective, that the vaccine? Likely to last much longer and cover a wider variety?

Why doesn't a positive antibody test carry the same weight as a vaccine card? Hell, the vaccine card could be fake for all you know. These frontline workers that had Covid have immunity.

Viral loads seem to be higher in the vaccinated so is it at least possible that those with natural immunity could be safer to the patient than someone who only received a vaccine?

This seems rather logical to much of the population. Europe accepts antibodies as equal to vaccination. Why don't you, or your health system? It is the decisions by the NBA and healthcare systems like yours to fire needed, qualified workers that raise suspicions that all is not above board.

[Reacher]

28 minutes ago, Hoosier51 said:

I know that this is anecdotal, so take it with a grain of salt. My soon to be sister in-law who is an ER nurse in South Carolina was telling me that they almost get the same amount of covid patients that are vaxed and unvaxed in the hospital she works, and if fact the only recent death was an obese vaccinated senior citizen.

Not sure if this older article has been posted. From this article it looks like the vaccine isn't all that effective toward the Delta variant. It is a little bit older article so it hasn't caught up the circus that is the booster shots.

Ultra-Vaxxed Israel’s Crisis Is a Dire Warning to America (yahoo.com)

I posted the article below earlier. It's beginning to look like the effectiveness of the vaccines, in preventing Covid AND turning into severe cases wanes over time. 

5 hours ago, Reacher said:

In other news, Should we expect this here?

https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta

What is clear is that “breakthrough” cases are not the rare events the term implies. As of 15 August, 514 Israelis were hospitalized with severe or critical COVID-19, a 31% increase from just 4 days earlier. Of the 514, 59% were fully vaccinated. Of the vaccinated, 87% were 60 or older. “There are so many breakthrough infections that they dominate and most of the hospitalized patients are actually vaccinated,” says Uri Shalit, a bioinformatician at the Israel Institute of Technology (Technion) who has consulted on COVID-19 for the government. “One of the big stories from Israel [is]: ‘Vaccines work, but not well enough.’”

 

 

 

[JW75]

1 hour ago, dgambill said:

Maybe I don't get it. If you are worried about your health care workers transmitting COVID to the patients then why not have ALL employees get tested daily/weekly? We just saw the numbers from Israel and here is info from one of their hospitals where they do testing. https://ascopost.com/issues/september-10-2021/breakthrough-covid-19-infection-in-fully-vaccinated-health-care-workers/ We know vaccinated workers can contract it...and we also know vaccinated people carry as high viral loads than unvaccinated and can spread it. You are no more protected from an vaccinated person than unvaccinated. Your PROTECTION is your own VACCINATION and whatever precautions you wish to take (masking/distancing/washing hands etc). I would assume a hospital would be doing some type of mandatory testing for it's employees...unless they are just pretending to care. I don't know...I don't work at one but my neighbor is a doctor had his nurse test positive after being vaccinated and who unfortunately she spread it to the doctor himself who was vaccinated before she found out. Neither were very sick, just minor ailments and the vaccine did it's job . But clearly it can be spread even in a pretty sterile hospital environment while wearing masks etc. I don't want anyone to contract it and safety should be parimount...but I just don't see an unvaccinated person (who may already have had COVID being any more dangerous)...especially if you just test them. 

edit:changed higher viral loads to as high....seems we found some clarification about this study

I'm with you.  If the patient is vaccinated why should they worry about their Dr or nurse being vaccinated or not.  Either one still spreads the virus, one may get sicker than the other and that is the chance the unvaccinated takes.  Not sure why a patient, that is vaccinated, is going to take their  "business" elsewhere if so and so in the hospital is not vaccinated.    

[Hoosier51]

29 minutes ago, Reacher said:

I posted the article below earlier. It's beginning to look like the effectiveness of the vaccines, in preventing Covid AND turning into severe cases wanes over time. 

 

Then they want people to get the booster which is a circus right now.

[dgambill]

13 minutes ago, JW75 said:

I'm with you.  If the patient is vaccinated why should they worry about their Dr or nurse being vaccinated or not.  Either one still spreads the virus, one may get sicker than the other and that is the chance the unvaccinated takes.  Not sure why a patient, that is vaccinated, is going to take their  "business" elsewhere if so and so in the hospital is not vaccinated.    

I think its like Lostin said....you get hyper-charged rhetoric (which happens from both sides) but is being echoed in the media, internet, and by an administration/politicians that cause people to freak out about these things and to even worry about this stuff....and it's on both sides really. In this case you get an administration saying the vaccinated need to be protected by the unvaxxed etc etc and so then those people's fears exponentially go up. Of course there are many with fears and rightfully so that are compromised etc but the vast majority shouldn't live their life in fear. 43.8 million (at minimum) because not everyone has been tested have gotten COVID. 43 million have recovered. We should worry about the 800k and protect the most vulnerable and ourselves not to add to it....but let's keep things in perspective (anecdotal stories we all have aside). COVID is not a death sentence.

Edited September 30, 2021 by dgambill

[Reacher]

1 hour ago, dgambill said:

. Thank God we have a comic relief thread. After reading this thread I can go there so I don't blow a gasket lol!!

I'll save you the trouble - 

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/767230486515105705/?amp_client_id=aHarIlc9uTJOQg-FndmaEvcJmnluw0UclYyKmG32SqBWj5jXhspS-cKR4wCnPqdm&mweb_unauth_id=8e2ccd520eb843e0b144a0c7c3bfabe8&simplified=true&amp_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Famp%2Fpin%2F767230486515105705%2F&amp_analytics=1*1ujee59*cid*YUhhcklsYzl1VEpPUWctRm5kbWFFdmNKbW5sdXcwVWNsWXlLbUczMlNxQldqNWpYaHNwUy1jS1I0d0NuUHFkbQ..

[5fouls]

Interpret this information as you wish.  But, in Indiana, there is a statistical significant level of increase in percentage of deaths in the age groups over 30 with a lower percentage of the population who are vaccinated.  

On 8/12, here were the CUMULATIVE (March 2020-today) death percentages in Indiana since the start of the pandemic by age group  

0-19 = .1%

20-29 = .2%

30-39 = .6%

40-49 = 1.8%

50-59 = 5.7%

60-69 = 15.3%

70-79 = 25.8%

80+ = 50.4%

 

Here are the cumulative numbers as of today.

 

Here are the vaccination rates by Age group (National.  Could not find Indiana)

.

 

[dgambill]

29 minutes ago, Reacher said:

I'll save you the trouble - 

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/767230486515105705/?amp_client_id=aHarIlc9uTJOQg-FndmaEvcJmnluw0UclYyKmG32SqBWj5jXhspS-cKR4wCnPqdm&mweb_unauth_id=8e2ccd520eb843e0b144a0c7c3bfabe8&simplified=true&amp_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Famp%2Fpin%2F767230486515105705%2F&amp_analytics=1*1ujee59*cid*YUhhcklsYzl1VEpPUWctRm5kbWFFdmNKbW5sdXcwVWNsWXlLbUczMlNxQldqNWpYaHNwUy1jS1I0d0NuUHFkbQ..

Remember when Rona only came out after like 10pm! Dang those were the good ol days! You just had to be out of the bar before then and you were A-OK! Those that survive this will have some wild stories to tell their kids/grandkids lol!

Edited September 30, 2021 by dgambill

[Lostin76]

4 hours ago, IUFLA said:

So a flu shot is a condition for employment? 

I've never heard of that, even in the military...

Edit: Just looked and most articles are saying a flu shot is "required" for active duty personnel, but I don't remember it that way...Of course, it's been 20 years since I retired...

Edit II: Getting a flu shot has never been a requirement for Government employment...It's strictly voluntary...They do offer flu shots on site during certain times of the year at my facility

It’s not in most places, but in many healthcare centers, it is. 

[Lostin76]

2 hours ago, Hoosier51 said:

Hmm getting a flu shot is a condition of employment? I'm not saying there isn't places that require you to get one but i've never heard of any.

Many top tier NE health systems require employees to get flu shots every year. We’ve done it every year since I’ve been here. 

You don’t hear about it, b/c the flu hasn’t been politicized like COVID. 

[Lostin76]

2 hours ago, Hoosier51 said:

I know that this is anecdotal, so take it with a grain of salt. My soon to be sister in-law who is an ER nurse in South Carolina was telling me that they almost get the same amount of covid patients that are vaxed and unvaxed in the hospital she works, and if fact the only recent death was an obese vaccinated senior citizen.

Not sure if this older article has been posted. From this article it looks like the vaccine isn't all that effective toward the Delta variant. It is a little bit older article so it hasn't caught up the circus that is the booster shots.

Ultra-Vaxxed Israel’s Crisis Is a Dire Warning to America (yahoo.com)

I thought this article was super interesting in this week’s New York magazine. David Wallace Wells is pointing out that age is an often ignored factor, using this is an example;

‘According to an analysis of British data by the Financial Times, a vaccinated 80-year-old has about the same mortality risk as an unvaccinated 50-year-old, and an unvaccinated 30-year-old has a lower risk than a vaccinated 45-year-old.’

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/09/covid-19-vaccine-status-age-discrimination.html

[Hoosier51]

5 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

Many top tier NE health systems require employees to get flu shots every year. We’ve done it every year since I’ve been here. 

You don’t hear about it, b/c the flu hasn’t been politicized like COVID. 

Like i said i know that there is probably a few that do, but nobody that i know has ever had to worry about losing their job if they didn't get a flu shot.

[Hoosier51]

14 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

I thought this article was super interesting in this week’s New York magazine. David Wallace Wells is pointing out that age is an often ignored factor, using this is an example;

‘According to an analysis of British data by the Financial Times, a vaccinated 80-year-old has about the same mortality risk as an unvaccinated 50-year-old, and an unvaccinated 30-year-old has a lower risk than a vaccinated 45-year-old.’

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/09/covid-19-vaccine-status-age-discrimination.html

i guess it depends on the sights you read, because the article i posted isn't exactly a glowing recomendation for the vaccine. Israel is one of the most vaccinated countries on earth, but they recently almost hit their highest case total since this all started.

 

But in early July, with citizens over the age of 60 almost completely vaccinated, Israeli scientists began observing a worrisome rise in infections—if not in severe illness and death—among the double-vaccinated.

Fully vaccinated people with weakened immune systems appeared particularly vulnerable to the aggressive Delta variant.

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Hoosier51

[Lostin76]

41 minutes ago, Hoosier51 said:

Like i said i know that there is probably a few that do, but nobody that i know has ever had to worry about losing their job if they didn't get a flu shot.

I would think it might be more common in the NE. And we have 45,000 employees just in our system. 

[tdhoosier]

5 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

May be accurate or may be the result of a slanted agenda-driven poll.  Were healthcare workers with natural immunity explained or given as a polling choice? I honestly wouldn't be shocked if the polling question was phrased as "Would you be willing to accept the risk of infection by having an unvaccinated nurse sneezing in your face?"

With all the lies, manipulation and misinformation coming from our "leaders", I'd like to see the poll questionnaire before deciding how good a poll that is.

I'll never forget Dr. Fauci himself admitting to telling a "noble lie".  That was a WTF moment for me.

First, it's an internal poll taken by a hospitals to determine what is best for safety and their bottom line. Why would they want to skew it with slanted questions? Wouldn't they want the most accurate analysis? It doesn't make sense. I'm sure no hospital administrators want to be in the position to fire staff because as everybody has mentioned it's bad for business. Sometimes I think many are trying to make things way more political than they are. This is a business decision made by a business that has the right to determine what is best for them, their patients and their staff. 

[Lostin76]

32 minutes ago, Hoosier51 said:

i guess it depends on the sights you read, because the article i posted isn't exactly a glowing recomendation for the vaccine. Israel is one of the most vaccinated countries on earth, but they recently almost hit their highest case total since this all started.

 

But in early July, with citizens over the age of 60 almost completely vaccinated, Israeli scientists began observing a worrisome rise in infections—if not in severe illness and death—among the double-vaccinated.

Fully vaccinated people with weakened immune systems appeared particularly vulnerable to the aggressive Delta variant.

 

Sorry, I wasn’t referring to the questionable, clickbait titled Yahoo news story, just your mention of the death of the vaccinated senior citizen. That is the whole crux of the article I posted.