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Reacher

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4 hours ago, Leathernecks said:

I don't mean this in a mean way, but I think that's a very misguided statement. We do all kinds of drills, training, emotional work, and many other things to try to prevent school shootings.

Maybe if our crappy educational system created the amount of concern Covid has, we could improve on our embarrassingly poor education.

I'm not looking at things like drills and training performed at individual school systems.  I'll leave it at that.

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What the headline tells us

260 employees in Georgia school district have tested positive for Covid-19 or been exposed

What the imbedded news story does NOT tell us,

  • How many of the 260 have actually tested positive versus just been exposed.  Are there 15 positives and 245 exposures?  The opposite?
  • How many of the 'exposed' actually tested negative.  Are they all still considered at risk.  
  • How old are the numbers?  The story states the number is fluid.  Does that mean that some of the 260 goes back to March, or are these numbers as of this moment?
  • How many TOTAL employees does the district have.  I looked it up.  The district employees 24,900 people.  The math says 260 is approximately 1%.

Again, we have a headline that is intended to spawn fear, not inform.  The average American is going to see '260' and 'school' and frame an opinion that does not match the reality.  Yes, things are not good in Georgia right now.  But, the headline is intended just as much for people in Iowa, Vermont, Indiana and Hawaii as it is to those in Georgia.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/03/us/gwinnett-schools-covid-employees/index.html

 

 

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11 hours ago, Leathernecks said:

That's something I've wondered about.  I don't know enough people in healthcare to know, but is it easy for them to get supplies?  Will supplies be set aside for schools?  I bought a 3 pack of Chlorox wipes in December, and those things are like gold.  I almost want to hide them in my room so nobody knows I have them.

My wife is a dentist. So far no problems getting stuff. It is much more expensive and takes longer. Have to put in a little effort. I was at Costco when they opened one morning and scored a pack of lysol wipes for her.  Her thermometer broke and I checked a bunch of store only to find none had any.  Found a really expensive one online as all the cheaper ones were sold out. The ADA really left them high and dry. They were encouraged to donate their PPE supplies to hospitals. With their inventories wiped out, had to replenish at 2 and 3x the price. Some stuff takes weeks to get so have to be proactive and order well ahead. 

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2 hours ago, RoadToZion said:

So my vacation out west is finished. Flying was a breeze. Both my flights were about 1/2 full. It was good to see what's going on in other states, and seeing people get on with their lives. I keep reading that it's chaos in places like Arizona, but that is just not true. Can't wait for my next vacation at the end of the month. 

I agree, I spent last week in Tucson. No Chaos, no panic, just people going on about their lives. Most had mask's in stores. Those who didn't were not hassled nor did they prevent anyone else from going on with life. Worst part of it was 109 and 40% humidity. 

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21 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Wow...so my hypothesis about poor population dense countries like Bangladesh using it as preventive because people there can buy any medicine over the counter and it helping keep numbers low may have some merit. I think it’s clear that once someone is hospitalized it’s probably too late to use it but in the way Trump was using it and these poor countries like India and other southwestern Asian countries...hmm. One has to wonder if politics is and the drug industry is causing more harm then good. Maybe Trumps doctor had it right.

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2 hours ago, dgambill said:

Wow...so my hypothesis about poor population dense countries like Bangladesh using it as preventive because people there can buy any medicine over the counter and it helping keep numbers low may have some merit. I think it’s clear that once someone is hospitalized it’s probably too late to use it but in the way Trump was using it and these poor countries like India and other southwestern Asian countries...hmm. One has to wonder if politics is and the drug industry is causing more harm then good. Maybe Trumps doctor had it right.

If I didn't know any better,  I think you could have wrote that article! Once again, HSN members with the news before it hits the press.

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2 hours ago, dgambill said:

Wow...so my hypothesis about poor population dense countries like Bangladesh using it as preventive because people there can buy any medicine over the counter and it helping keep numbers low may have some merit. I think it’s clear that once someone is hospitalized it’s probably too late to use it but in the way Trump was using it and these poor countries like India and other southwestern Asian countries...hmm. One has to wonder if politics is and the drug industry is causing more harm then good. Maybe Trumps doctor had it right.

You realize that there have been studies using HCQ to prevent infection as well as very early in infection, right? And those studies showed no effective results? 
 

But sure, let’s go with random anecdotal evidence from surely reliable newspapers because it fits with the narrative we want to believe. 

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10 minutes ago, jimsorgi said:

You realize that there have been studies using HCQ to prevent infection as well as very early in infection, right? And those studies showed no effective results? 
 

But sure, let’s go with random anecdotal evidence from surely reliable newspapers because it fits with the narrative we want to believe. 

I keep hearing this, but no one has successfully explained Bangladesh to me.  Maybe it's not HCQ, but it's something, and if Bangladesh can do it, so can we.  Yet, we're not.

And, for the record, there have been several reports/studies that indicate HCQ does have benefit (notice i did not say miracle cure).  Yet, you are choosing to ignore those.

 

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21 minutes ago, jimsorgi said:

You realize that there have been studies using HCQ to prevent infection as well as very early in infection, right? And those studies showed no effective results? 
 

But sure, let’s go with random anecdotal evidence from surely reliable newspapers because it fits with the narrative we want to believe. 

 

7 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I keep hearing this, but no one has successfully explained Bangladesh to me.  Maybe it's not HCQ, but it's something, and if Bangladesh can do it, so can we.  Yet, we're not.

And, for the record, there have been several reports/studies that indicate HCQ does have benefit (notice i did not say miracle cure).  Yet, you are choosing to ignore those.

 

The studies I have seen have shown HCQ to be quite effective when used early. I know I linked to some of them earlier in this thread. You may wish to double check your information. 

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Seems to me some people want to wait on a 100% effective cure which simply isn't going to happen.  

As a guy that does all his own mechanic work I have about 30 different tools I use regularly.  So I look at covid like my truck. If it helps even 10% of infections then use it as 1 part of a tool set. I have yet to see a one size fits all approach work anywhere in life. 

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24 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said:

Seems to me some people want to wait on a 100% effective cure which simply isn't going to happen.  

As a guy that does all his own mechanic work I have about 30 different tools I use regularly.  So I look at covid like my truck. If it helps even 10% of infections then use it as 1 part of a tool set. I have yet to see a one size fits all approach work anywhere in life. 

Like I said, what does it hurt?

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34 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Like I said, what does it hurt?

Just like with flu season, you have the flu shot, otc drugs, prescriptions, tamaflu that I know of, and I dont know what it was but I went to the ER once with a 107 fever and had an injection that felt like ice water in my veins. 

So why not? Let's just beat this thing. 

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12 minutes ago, jv1972iu said:

So, why don't you, mr.flynn, reacher, and 5fouls start taking HCQ and let us know how it goes.  Okay?  Then we'll have first hand info.  😊

Well I first need a good looking woman who test positive to make out with for a half hour or so then start my course the next day.😁

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Helpful info regarding the school debate- https://downloads.aap.org/AAP/PDF/AAP and CHA - Children and COVID-19 State Data Report 7.30.20 FINAL.pdf

Includes state level data about kids tested, diagnosed, hospitalized and died from the American Academy of Pediatrics and Childrens Hospital Association. Current through July 30. 

338,982 Child cases (out of 75 million+ child population) representing 8.8% of total cases, 0.03% of cases result in death (86 deaths). 

For perspective, roughly 500 children die annually from the flu, 700 from drowning and 1200 from car accidents. 

I know this doesn't address transmission to adults (teachers and family members) but all indications have thus far shown that is relatively minor. 

We are going way overboard in closing schools- especially those in large cities / economically depressed areas. Studies show that the damage caused by such policies will be multiples worse than from Covid itself and possibly last a generation. 

We have hard evidence here. We don't see kids that die of the flu and from drownings all over the national news. When a child covid death is a national news headline, that is a sign the media are out to manipulate emotions. Balanced reporting would include the data I presented above. 

it is truly sick that people are taking advantage of children (don't tell me that kids will not suffer from not being in school) to promote their agendas- whatever they may be. We need to put a stop to that and get the facts reported accurately. 

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14 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Helpful info regarding the school debate- https://downloads.aap.org/AAP/PDF/AAP and CHA - Children and COVID-19 State Data Report 7.30.20 FINAL.pdf

Includes state level data about kids tested, diagnosed, hospitalized and died from the American Academy of Pediatrics and Childrens Hospital Association. Current through July 30. 

338,982 Child cases (out of 75 million+ child population) representing 8.8% of total cases, 0.03% of cases result in death (86 deaths). 

For perspective, roughly 500 children die annually from the flu, 700 from drowning and 1200 from car accidents. 

I know this doesn't address transmission to adults (teachers and family members) but all indications have thus far shown that is relatively minor. 

We are going way overboard in closing schools- especially those in large cities / economically depressed areas. Studies show that the damage caused by such policies will be multiples worse than from Covid itself and possibly last a generation. 

We have hard evidence here. We don't see kids that die of the flu and from drownings all over the national news. When a child covid death is a national news headline, that is a sign the media are out to manipulate emotions. Balanced reporting would include the data I presented above. 

it is truly sick that people are taking advantage of children (don't tell me that kids will not suffer from not being in school) to promote their agendas- whatever they may be. We need to put a stop to that and get the facts reported accurately. 

Slow down a bit guys. 

We have been pretty loose in letting this thread stay organic.

But a few of you keep stepping closer and closer to the line of political discussion.

People taking advantage of children for an agenda?

Thats pushing the limits of our discussion.

Trump doctors this etc.

You all can state your views on HCQ, schools, death rates etc.

Just please stop purposefully seeing how far you can push it here. 

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32 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Helpful info regarding the school debate- https://downloads.aap.org/AAP/PDF/AAP and CHA - Children and COVID-19 State Data Report 7.30.20 FINAL.pdf

Includes state level data about kids tested, diagnosed, hospitalized and died from the American Academy of Pediatrics and Childrens Hospital Association. Current through July 30. 

338,982 Child cases (out of 75 million+ child population) representing 8.8% of total cases, 0.03% of cases result in death (86 deaths). 

For perspective, roughly 500 children die annually from the flu, 700 from drowning and 1200 from car accidents. 

I know this doesn't address transmission to adults (teachers and family members) but all indications have thus far shown that is relatively minor. 

We are going way overboard in closing schools- especially those in large cities / economically depressed areas. Studies show that the damage caused by such policies will be multiples worse than from Covid itself and possibly last a generation. 

We have hard evidence here. We don't see kids that die of the flu and from drownings all over the national news. When a child covid death is a national news headline, that is a sign the media are out to manipulate emotions. Balanced reporting would include the data I presented above. 

it is truly sick that people are taking advantage of children (don't tell me that kids will not suffer from not being in school) to promote their agendas- whatever they may be. We need to put a stop to that and get the facts reported accurately. 

I'm all for kids going back to school but I'm beginning to wonder how possible this actually is. I'll repeat what I said earlier, the decision to go back should be made on a local level based on the number of reported cases in the area. 

That said, I keep hearing about incidents like this one. A suburban Chicago school came to our county (Porter) to have a 'missed prom' and there was an outbreak, even after being pretty cautious (according to the article). We took our son for his check up and our Doctor said that Valpo High School also had a 'missed prom' and there was an outbreak there. These are smaller subgroups in an entire school system and infection still can't be avoided. Two incidents within 10 miles from me, right before school starts. It hits home a little. 

Again, I realize that severe symptoms in children 10 and under are believed to be rare and death is even more rare, but only concentrating on these stats misses the point. I'm wondering if schools can realistically function if too many teachers and students are out sick. How many subs are there? If a school has an outbreak, will you even get a sub to teach there? At what point will parents keep their healthy children home? I don't want to minimize death and hospitalization, but I think a valid concern is will schools be able to operate? I don't necessarily think that can be minimalized to fear mongering. It's a legit question. 

Edited by tdhoosier
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Isn't there kind of a "demarcation point" (I think I read 10 years old and younger) that dramatically decreases the spread risk? 

If, as I keep hearing, we need to "trust the science" then we need to trust it all the way and not just cherry pick to our liking...that goes for everybody...and make return to school decisions based on that. Also, give parents the option to send their child, or if they're uncomfortable with that, home school or remote learning.

Edited by IUFLA
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14 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I'm all for kids going back to school but I'm beginning to wonder how possible this actually is. I'll repeat what I said earlier, the decision to go back should be made on a local level based on the number of reported cases in the area. 

That said, I keep hearing about incidents like this one. A suburban Chicago school came to our county (Porter) to have a 'missed prom' and there was an outbreak, even after being pretty cautious (according to the article). We took our son for his check up and our Doctor said that Valpo High School also had a 'missed prom' and there was an outbreak there. These are smaller subgroups in an entire school system and infection still can't be avoided. Two incidents within 10 miles from me, right before school starts. It hits home a little. 

Again, I realize that severe symptoms in children 10 and under are believed to be rare and death is even more rare, but only concentrating on these stats misses the point. I'm wondering if schools can realistically function if too many teachers and students are out sick. How many subs are there? If a school has an outbreak, will you even get a sub to teach there? At what point will parents keep their healthy children home? I don't want to minimize death and hospitalization, but I think a valid concern is will schools be able to operate? I don't necessarily think that can be minimalized to fear mongering. It's a legit question. 

Would that be a news story if the kids caught the flu? Kids get sick all the time. It is necessary to build their immunity. Because Covid has been sensationalized, it is now necessary to close  the schools? I'm not saying Covid is not dangerous- it certainly is for the elderly and those with other health issues. Those are the people we need to protect- not the kids. 

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https://www.christianpost.com/news/more-youth-are-dying-of-suicide-overdose-than-covid-19-during-pandemic-cdc-director.html

Link title pretty much says it all. If you don't want to read- here is one excerpt-

In his July 14 interview, Redfield emphasized the absence of schools for the increase in suicides, overdoses and general mental health difficulties faced by young people during the pandemic. 

He also said resources to combat these problems have been overworked by COVID-19 or are too dangerous to access.

“You know, a lot of kids get their mental health services, over 7 million, in school,” Redfield explained. “A lot of people get food and nutrition in schools. Schools are really important in terms of mandatory reporting of sexual and child abuse. Obviously, socialization is important.”

Redfield said that the "cost to our nation in continuing to keep these schools closed is substantial." 

We need to weigh the costs and benefits of school closings. Is society willing to accept 500 Covid deaths among children to prevent 2000 deaths from other causes? Granted, we have no idea what those numbers are or will be. I pulled them out of a hat for the sake of discussion. We do know suicide is the second leading cause of death resulting in 15,000 deaths in 2018 (from the article above). Right now, society seems to not be valuing suicide, depression, child abuse and the education of many of our children due to a fear of Covid. Is that fear justified? 

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