Coronavirus

[tdhoosier]

Quote

Would that be a news story if the kids caught the flu? Kids get sick all the time. It is necessary to build their immunity. Because Covid has been sensationalized, it is now necessary to close  the schools? I'm not saying Covid is not dangerous- it certainly is for the elderly and those with other health issues. Those are the people we need to protect- not the kids. 

@Reacher But this is not the flu. You are asking 'what if' and comparing apples and oranges. Plus, schools shut down because of flu outbreaks. A few schools in my area shut down because of a peak in the flu in January. 

Now take a virus that spreads much faster than the flu with an evelvating case count (in many areas in indiana) and you have a possible operational nightmare due to health related absences. One that needs to be prepared for and discussed. Please keep in mind that a good proportion of schools are staff and this virus is spreading amongst high school aged students just as quickly as it does in adults.

I think you're missing the point of what i'm trying to convey. Please put health aside for a second. Please put media reports aside for a second. I'm talking about transmission and what that could mean for schools, purely from an operational standpoint. You think this concern is sensationalized? 

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by tdhoosier

[5fouls]

14 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

@Reacher But this is not the flu. You are asking 'what if' and comparing apples and oranges. Plus, schools shut down because of flu outbreaks. A few schools in my area shut down because of a peak in the flu in January. 

Now take a virus that spreads much faster than the flu with an evelvating case count (in many areas in indiana) and you have a possible operational nightmare due to health related absences. One that needs to be prepared for and discussed. Please keep in mind that a good proportion of schools are staff and this virus is spreading amongst high school aged students just as quickly as it does in adults.

I think you're missing the point of what i'm trying to convey. Please put health aside for a second. Please put media reports aside for a second. I'm talking about transmission and what that could mean for schools, purely from an operational standpoint. You think this concern is sensationalized? 

 

Let me touch on a point regarding the comparison to flu.  There is a lot of concern, and rightfully so, about the asymptomatic spread of Covid-19.  That said, can't the flu be transmitted through asymptomatic people as well?  Yes, schools have been temporarily shut down by the flu.  But, that's when a large percentage of the student body were showing symptoms.  Nobody is testing asymptomatic students or doing contact tracing with the flu.  

For the sake of argument, let's look at the case in Greenfield, where some middle school student received a positive test after the first day of school.  Ignore the fact that the child should not have been sent to school in the first place if they were awaiting test results.  Instead, look at it this way.  

That case has received a lot of national attention, but the amount and tone it's received is overblown in my opinion.  

• If the same kid was asymptomatic with the flu and went to school, no one would have ever known he/she even had the flu, because the kid would have never been tested.
• Even if, for some reason, the kid found out they tested positive for the flu, it would not have caused a temporary shutdown of the school, and certainly would not have received national media attention.

Covid-19 is scary to many because it is new.  Meanwhile, a similar situation that arises related to something familiar (flu),  is treated as an afterthought.    Why is that?  I think that's where we all have our diverse opinions.  My story above is to try to get someone to look at things the way I do in regards to how this should effect school. If you disagree with me, explain to me why..

 

 

[5fouls]

Examples of how numbers can lie.

If I were to give you these numbers, without any additional context, you would likely form an opinion about where Covid-19 is at in Indiana.

4/27

• Percentage of ICU beds in use for Covid-19 - 16.7%
• ICU Beds Available - 44.2%

 

8/3

• Percentage of ICU beds in use for Covid - 17.3%
• ICU beds available - 37.2%

 

Those numbers see, to indicate that the state is worse off than when we were in the height of the crisis in April. Don't they?

Now let's add some context and see what happens to the numbers.

ICU Bed Total Capacity

• 4/27 - 3,271 ICU beds
• 8/3 - 2,167 ICU beds

 

Actual In Use Numbers for Covid-19 Based on Capacity

• 4/27 ICU beds in use for Covid-19 - 546
• 8/3 ICU beds in use for Covid-19 - 374

 

Now, I can't explain why ICU bed total capacity is so much lower now than it was then.  But, my point is that when we're given numbers, we really need to full context to understand what they mean.  This is similar to the Georgia school corp that had 256 positive tests among staff.  Sounds incredibly scary until you learn that the school corp employs over 26,000 people.

If you want to verify my numbers, they can be found on the Indiana Department of Health Covid-19 page.  

 https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by 5fouls

[tdhoosier]

54 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Let me touch on a point regarding the comparison to flu.  There is a lot of concern, and rightfully so, about the asymptomatic spread of Covid-19.  That said, can't the flu be transmitted through asymptomatic people as well?  Yes, schools have been temporarily shut down by the flu.  But, that's when a large percentage of the student body were showing symptoms.  Nobody is testing asymptomatic students or doing contact tracing with the flu.  

For the sake of argument, let's look at the case in Greenfield, where some middle school student received a positive test after the first day of school.  Ignore the fact that the child should not have been sent to school in the first place if they were awaiting test results.  Instead, look at it this way.  

That case has received a lot of national attention, but the amount and tone it's received is overblown in my opinion.  

• If the same kid was asymptomatic with the flu and went to school, no one would have ever known he/she even had the flu, because the kid would have never been tested.
• Even if, for some reason, the kid found out they tested positive for the flu, it would not have caused a temporary shutdown of the school, and certainly would not have received national media attention.

Covid-19 is scary to many because it is new.  Meanwhile, a similar situation that arises related to something familiar (flu),  is treated as an afterthought.    Why is that?  I think that's where we all have our diverse opinions.  My story above is to try to get someone to look at things the way I do in regards to how this should effect school. If you disagree with me, explain to me why..

 

 

I don't know where we begin to start if you are going to insinuate skepticism on a flu comparison by just asking open ended 'what if' questions about similar traits the viruses may share because that doesn't get us anywhere. It's like me trying to compare the dangers of a pitbull and shih tzu by saying: well, they're both dogs, they both bark and they both have teeth, thus, they're equally as dangerous. 

Per the CDC website:

Quote

While COVID-19 and flu viruses are thought to spread in similar ways, COVID-19 is more contagious among certain populations and age groups than flu. Also, COVID-19 has been observed to have more superspreading events than flu. This means the virus that causes COVID-19 can quickly and easily spread to a lot of people and result in continuous spreading among people as time progresses.

Again, my argument is based on transmission rate given the information the CDC has observed and how this may effect a school operationally. I'm actually surprised i'm getting push back on this. My own concern (not the media's or your friend on Facebook...please don't lump me in with them) is that it is possible that high schools and possibly middle schools can be places where those superspreading events MAY happen. It's not going to happen in every school, but it is likely to happen. Therefore, individual districts are correct in practicing caution and concern by preparing for these possible events. It also re-iterates the very first and most important point of my original reply: this decision needs to be made locally based on the case count in their area. Just like you may believe that we all shouldn't be frightened away from opening schools if the case count in your area is relatively safe (which I actually agree with you and Reacher on), it's also that schools shouldn't be forced to open up if the case count is moderate to high.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

19 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I don't know where we begin to start if you are going to insinuate skepticism on a flu comparison by just asking open ended 'what if' questions about similar traits the viruses may share because that doesn't get us anywhere. It's like me trying to compare the dangers of a pitbull and shih tzu by saying: well, they're both dogs, they both bark and they both have teeth, thus, they're equally as dangerous. 

Per the CDC website:

Again, my argument is based on transmission rate given the information the CDC has observed and how this may effect a school operationally. I'm actually surprised i'm getting push back on this. My own concern (not the media's or your friend on Facebook...please don't lump me in with them) is that it is possible that high schools and possibly middle schools can be places where those superspreading events MAY happen. It's not going to happen in every school, but it is likely to happen. Therefore, individual districts are correct in practicing caution and concern by preparing for these possible events. It also re-iterates the very first and most important point of my original reply: this decision needs to be made locally based on the case count in their area. Just like you may believe that we all shouldn't be frightened away from opening schools if the case count in your area is relatively safe (which I actually agree with you and Reacher on), it's also that schools shouldn't be forced to open up if the case count is moderate to high.  

I don’t get the pushback either or repeated efforts to downplay the virus. 

[5fouls]

9 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I don’t get the pushback either or repeated efforts to downplay the virus. 

I'm not downplaying the virus.  I'm not saying don't wear masks.  I'm not saying we should pack 100,000 fans into a football stadium for a game.  What I am addressing is 1 specific aspect of the crisis.

Should schools be opened or closed this fall?

Do you have an opinion on that?

 

[5fouls]

16 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I don’t get the pushback either or repeated efforts to downplay the virus. 

Why is it pushback when someone has an opinion that some things related to the virus are too restrictive, but it's not pushback when someone has an opinion that some things related to the virus are too lenient?  

[5fouls]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Examples of how numbers can lie.

If I were to give you these numbers, without any additional context, you would likely form an opinion about where Covid-19 is at in Indiana.

4/27

• Percentage of ICU beds in use for Covid-19 - 16.7%
• ICU Beds Available - 44.2%

 

8/3

• Percentage of ICU beds in use for Covid - 17.3%
• ICU beds available - 37.2%

 

Those numbers see, to indicate that the state is worse off than when we were in the height of the crisis in April. Don't they?

Now let's add some context and see what happens to the numbers.

ICU Bed Total Capacity

• 4/27 - 3,271 ICU beds
• 8/3 - 2,167 ICU beds

 

Actual In Use Numbers for Covid-19 Based on Capacity

• 4/27 ICU beds in use for Covid-19 - 546
• 8/3 ICU beds in use for Covid-19 - 374

 

Now, I can't explain why ICU bed total capacity is so much lower now than it was then.  But, my point is that when we're given numbers, we really need to full context to understand what they mean.  This is similar to the Georgia school corp that had 256 positive tests among staff.  Sounds incredibly scary until you learn that the school corp employs over 26,000 people.

If you want to verify my numbers, they can be found on the Indiana Department of Health Covid-19 page.  

 https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/

 

I'll take note that no one is 'pushing back' on this. 

Why?

Because they can't.  

 

[tdhoosier]

11 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Why is it pushback when someone has an opinion that some things related to the virus are too restrictive, but it's not pushback when someone has an opinion that some things related to the virus are too lenient?  

Are you addressing me on this reply as well? I was just surprised you seemed to disagreeing with my concern at face value. 

[5fouls]

Just now, tdhoosier said:

Are you addressing me on this reply as well? I was just surprised you seemed to disagreeing with my concern at face value. 

I was not addressing you.  You debate/discuss in a courteous, non-offensive manner.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

24 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Why is it pushback when someone has an opinion that some things related to the virus are too restrictive, but it's not pushback when someone has an opinion that some things related to the virus are too lenient?  

When you're comparing it to the flu and basically criticizing the decision on schools on that fl;u comparison, Fouls, it's pushback. Come on now. This has nothing to do with being too lenient, etc., it just looks like pushback to me. It's an empty comparison, to the flu. Of course no one says close schools etc. because of the flu. This aint the flu.

[Hoosierhoopster]

10 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I was not addressing you.  You debate/discuss in a courteous, non-offensive manner.  

Now I'm offensive? OK Fouls.

[5fouls]

1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

When you're comparing it to the flu and basically criticizing the decision on schools on that fl;u comparison, Fouls, it's pushback. Come on now. This has nothing to do with being too lenient, etc., it just looks like pushback to me. It's an empty comparison, to the flu. Of course no one says close schools etc. because of the flu. This aint the flu.

In your opinion, should schools be closed because of the virus?.

[5fouls]

6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Now I'm offensive? OK Fouls.

I apologize.  Your post was not offensive.  You expressed your opinion.  I was irritated that you took a little shot at me without directly quoting me, but then I turned around and did the same to you.  Except mine was even worse.  

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

22 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I apologize.  Your post was not offensive.  You expressed your opinion.  I was irritated that you took a little shot at me without directly quoting me, but then I turned around and did the same to you.  Except mine was even worse.  

 

You know we love you Fouls. Apologies as well that my post came across as any kind of shot at you, it wasn't meant that way. Sometimes I can be kind of flip in the way I reply to a message board post --

[tdhoosier]

27 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I apologize.  Your post was not offensive.  You expressed your opinion.  I was irritated that you took a little shot at me without directly quoting me, but then I turned around and did the same to you.  Except mine was even worse.  

 

 

4 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

You know we love you Fouls. Apologies as well that my post came across as any kind of shot at you, it wasn't meant that way. Sometimes I can be kind of flip in the way I reply to a message board post --

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

37 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

In your opinion, should schools be closed because of the virus?.

I tend to agree with tdhoosier. It's a local issue. The school issue is complicated, kids, middle school and high school in particular, are breeding grounds for this virus, they carry it, and yes, they -- generally -- don't tend to be at risk (though that ignores that kids have gotten really sick and died from this virus), but they do expose teachers and school staff and workers. There's also the risk of bringing the virus back home to parents and grandparents, from school. 

I want my kids in school, rather than indefinitely studying online, but I also want them and the schools to be safe. At this point my daughter is returning to her boarding school in September, but attending classes online there for the first term. My middle child is returning to college, for in-person classes, but with the school having taking a number of measures, including a split online/in-person environment, reduced class sizes, etc. My oldest, who is in is last year at Northwestern, is still figuring it out along with the school. He may attend online -- that appears to be a choice, but Northwestern starts late and the final decisions don't yet appear to have been made. Each of these schools is in a different state, and are different size schools, and have different school / populations / situations to consider. And some states and communities are dealing with high level infections and hospitalizations, and others are down or trending down.

[5fouls]

1 minute ago, tdhoosier said:

 

 

If that were to happen, I'm almost certain Hoopster would make me pay for it.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

If that were to happen, I'm almost certain Hoopster would make me pay for it.  

My going rate is $400/hour. Pretty cheap.

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

I'm not downplaying the virus.  I'm not saying don't wear masks.  I'm not saying we should pack 100,000 fans into a football stadium for a game.  What I am addressing is 1 specific aspect of the crisis.

Should schools be opened or closed this fall?

Do you have an opinion on that?

 

I would say that right now it would be better to go with e-learning until the first of the year.

[5fouls]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

I would say that right now it would be better to go with e-learning until the first of the year.

My kids did not get much at all out of e-learning, beyond enjoying the opportunity to be a little lazy.  I know these are extraordinary times, but I worry about how these interruptions in their academic careers will impact them long term.  

[IU Scott]

Just now, 5fouls said:

My kids did not get much at all out of e-learning, beyond enjoying the opportunity to be a little lazy.  I know these are extraordinary times, but I worry about how these interruptions in their academic careers will impact them long term.  

I live in Greenfield and those parents who sent that kid to school was so irresponsible.  I am afraid we won't see parents being truthful or act in a irresponsible way when dealing with the virus.  It is like that the government almost has to protect us from ourselves because there are to many people who won't obey the laws.  My kids are in college so it was not to hard on them doing everything on line but I agree younger kids will learn better in a classroom setting.

[Proud2BAHoosier]

5 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

My kids did not get much at all out of e-learning, beyond enjoying the opportunity to be a little lazy.  I know these are extraordinary times, but I worry about how these interruptions in their academic careers will impact them long term.  

Not only that, but who is going to monitor the kids while they are at home?

[Proud2BAHoosier]

FWIW, school was back in session today down here in Tell City. 85% of the parents said they wanted their kids in school.

[tdhoosier]

I think it's pretty much universal that both kids and parents hate elearning. I'm guessing many teachers hate it too. 

My district is attempting to live stream classes for kids who chose to not go to school and for when/if school is called off. I really am hoping this will be better, but we'll see. I just need to remind myself and my kids to be patient with the process as this is new for everybody.