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10 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

I'm fine with that approach. Hey idiot...put your mask on would be my approach during these times.

I feel sorry for the people who cant actually wear a mask.  I used to work with a guy who was so claustrophobic,  he couldn't keep a mask on his face.

I saw him literally jump off a 20' extension ladder, and flail aound on the ground like he was on fire. All because of a paper mask...  dude was white as a sheet and sweeting like crazy.

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13 hours ago, 5fouls said:

We don't have an office in the house.  I'm working at the kitchen table.  My wife at the dining room table.  There is a bathroom in between the two rooms.  I usually have the courtesy to go to another bathroom.  But, my wife likes the easy access.  So, if I'm on a Zoom call, I have to be strategic when I take myself on mute or everyone on the call gets to hear the toilet flush.

 

Am glad I’m not the only one without a fancy home office. We live in about 500sqft, so one of us is hunched over the coffee table and one of us the kitchen table. The bathroom is super close to both obviously. We have a lot of dueling Zoom calls each day and often, one of us will take our laptop to the bedroom if we have a call that we have to lead/talk a lot on. It’s definitely challenging! 

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15 hours ago, Lostin76 said:

They did, but the people embracing this study aren’t reading it critically or even closely.. I really don’t mean to be a dick here, but I’m tired of people trying to prove that you (or the ones you love) are better off w/o masks during a worldwide pandemic. It kind of lessens the benefit if you wear a mask, and everyone around you is too stupid, insecure, or proud to get the message. This isn’t hard. 

We all come from different backgrounds and live in different geographical areas, but it seems like we a have all begrudgingly adopted mask wearing to protect those around us. These “studies” just give selfish people ammunition to be selfish. 

What are your thoughts on this Drs conclusion / analysis of the Danish study?

https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/11/19/covid-19-new-evidence-on-face-masks/

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1 hour ago, Reacher said:

What are your thoughts on this Drs conclusion / analysis of the Danish study?

https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/11/19/covid-19-new-evidence-on-face-masks/

His own words....

"The main thing lacking with this study is that it only looked at risk to the person wearing the face mask. It says nothing about the risk that the person wearing the mask will infect another person. That is an equally important parameter, and at present there are no high quality studies looking in to it, so before we can truly say that masks fill no function, we need another large randomized controlled trial that looks at the ability of face masks to prevent the mask wearer infecting other people"

 

Hasn't everybody primarily said the biggest benefit to wearing a mask was to keep you from spreading to others, not so much to protect yourself?

This study, and his analysis didn't even test what the main purpose of wearing a mask is. Not sure what point there was in this study. It measured something that isn't really part of the mask wearing debate. 

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13 minutes ago, bluegrassIU said:

His own words....

"The main thing lacking with this study is that it only looked at risk to the person wearing the face mask. It says nothing about the risk that the person wearing the mask will infect another person. That is an equally important parameter, and at present there are no high quality studies looking in to it, so before we can truly say that masks fill no function, we need another large randomized controlled trial that looks at the ability of face masks to prevent the mask wearer infecting other people"

 

This is what some keep on going back to when they criticize the collected data, but the problem is that in order to have a randomized controlled trial, you need to have a maskless control group, which in a pandemic is not a good idea or responsible study to be performing. 

In the article I posted on the last page a scientists was quoted:

“You can’t do randomized trials for everything — and you shouldn’t.” As clinical researchers are sometimes fond of saying, parachutes have never been tested in a randomized controlled trial, either. 

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11 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

This is what some keep on going back to when they criticize the collected data, but the problem is that in order to have a randomized controlled trial, you need to have a maskless control group, which in a pandemic is not a good idea or responsible study to be performing. 

In the article I posted on the last page a scientists was quoted:

“You can’t do randomized trials for everything — and you shouldn’t.” As clinical researchers are sometimes fond of saying, parachutes have never been tested in a randomized controlled trial, either. 

A thousand times this. 

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3 hours ago, Lostin76 said:

Am glad I’m not the only one without a fancy home office. We live in about 500sqft, so one of us is hunched over the coffee table and one of us the kitchen table. The bathroom is super close to both obviously. We have a lot of dueling Zoom calls each day and often, one of us will take our laptop to the bedroom if we have a call that we have to lead/talk a lot on. It’s definitely challenging! 

I'm in a spare bedroom which has a ceiling fan that positions just over the top of my head on Zoom meetings. looks like I'm wearing a beanie. If I turn on the light, it looks like I have a halo and a beanie...

So the room is pretty dark...

Which has earned me the nickname among my peers as "Emperor Beanie of the Dark Side."

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1 hour ago, bluegrassIU said:

His own words....

"The main thing lacking with this study is that it only looked at risk to the person wearing the face mask. It says nothing about the risk that the person wearing the mask will infect another person. That is an equally important parameter, and at present there are no high quality studies looking in to it, so before we can truly say that masks fill no function, we need another large randomized controlled trial that looks at the ability of face masks to prevent the mask wearer infecting other people"

 

Hasn't everybody primarily said the biggest benefit to wearing a mask was to keep you from spreading to others, not so much to protect yourself?

This study, and his analysis didn't even test what the main purpose of wearing a mask is. Not sure what point there was in this study. It measured something that isn't really part of the mask wearing debate. 

50% of the debate is whether it protects you. The other half is protecting others. We finally "have a randomized controlled trial that has looked at the ability of face masks to protect wearers against covid-19"

Not sure why this is being dismissed. 

If everybody is wearing masks, and they only protect others, why are we seeing the spread escalate?  Makes no sense. Maybe masks don't protect others either? Is that possible? Seems almost likely given the spread with now nearly universal mask wearing.

@Lostin76, I asked your opinion on the conclusions and analysis. I thought you might have some constructive points. All you did was ignore that and shoot the messenger. I guess you don't like the guy. Why would you let your personal opinions influence what he wrote? 

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With lockdowns once again spreading, we are reminded, by over 50,000 Drs, of the damaging impacts of such policies. This was discussed earlier and was dismissed (by some) since we were going away from lockdowns in the US. Not only are we not going away from them, they are becoming stricter. And in an environment where we no longer have the safety net of stimulus payments to help people financially. 

https://justthenews.com/nearly-50000-doctors-and-scientists-630000-citizens-have-signed-global-anti-lockdown-proclamation

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29 minutes ago, Reacher said:

With lockdowns once again spreading, we are reminded, by over 50,000 Drs, of the damaging impacts of such policies. This was discussed earlier and was dismissed (by some) since we were going away from lockdowns in the US. Not only are we not going away from them, they are becoming stricter. And in an environment where we no longer have the safety net of stimulus payments to help people financially. 

https://justthenews.com/nearly-50000-doctors-and-scientists-630000-citizens-have-signed-global-anti-lockdown-proclamation

Funny, I was just going to post this: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/18/us/covid-state-restrictions.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

If anything, animated graphs are cool. I do want to say though: we are in a pandemic and that no decision is not going to have consequences. The debate obviously appears to be what decision will cause the least amount of damage in the long run. Not saying that the issues they point: lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health aren't issues we shouldn't be worried about. But are they worse than a hundreds of thousands deaths, hospitals overflowing, and unforeseen lasting health impacts, which would still happen under their recommended guidance?

They state: The ideal policy, according to the signatories, is "to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk."

I have to ask the obvious questions: why attempt to build up immunity through natural infection, which will take months, when we have vaccines ready to be distributed that are showing to be 95% effective? Especially when we proved we are absolutely incapable of protecting those at the highest risk and they (in some cases) are incapable of protecting themselves. We want to start this right now???? Really????

I'm sorry @Reacher but I see absolutely no logic in this at all. 

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47 minutes ago, Reacher said:

50% of the debate is whether it protects you. The other half is protecting others. We finally "have a randomized controlled trial that has looked at the ability of face masks to protect wearers against covid-19"

Not sure why this is being dismissed. 

If everybody is wearing masks, and they only protect others, why are we seeing the spread escalate?  Makes no sense. Maybe masks don't protect others either? Is that possible? Seems almost likely given the spread with now nearly universal mask wearing.

@Lostin76, I asked your opinion on the conclusions and analysis. I thought you might have some constructive points. All you did was ignore that and shoot the messenger. I guess you don't like the guy. Why would you let your personal opinions influence what he wrote? 

I’ve worked in healthcare research since I got out of the Navy in 1997. In the Navy I was a corpsman and worked in the medical field. In all that time, I have worked with doctors who are obsessed with improving healthcare. I have no patience for doctors that turn from that mission to chase fame or try to play contrarian to get attention and clicks. I just simply have no thoughts on that doctor other than I think he’s a ridiculous quack. Just b/c someone is a doctor, it does not mean we should trust them.

I’m sorry if it seemed like I was shooting the messenger. I should not attack you for bringing things here, but I have to be honest - a lot of what you bring here just does not seem particularly helpful. We don’t need to see “both sides” right now. We need to unite behind simple concepts - wear a mask when around others, social distance as much as you can, and avoid indoor situations where COVID can easily spread. That’s it. If we did those things, we wouldn’t be sitting here contemplating new lockdowns and not seeing our families for the holidays.

For gods sake, NYC just closed in person schools again. There is real fear that we may be heading back towards refrigerated trucks holding dead bodies. I just don’t think people get how serious things were at one point and that they can be like it was for us in other places if we are not careful. Thankfully, we had the capacity (until you died) to take care of the patients we had, but I’m worried about my hometown in Gibson County with one tiny hospital. 

I’ve seen the bad old days of 24/7 sirens and morgue trucks on our pre-dawn runs. I don’t want to go back there. 

To debate whether or not we should be wearing masks right now, b/c some famewhore Swedish doctor stumbles upon a flawed study just seems counterproductive. 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Reacher said:

With lockdowns once again spreading, we are reminded, by over 50,000 Drs, of the damaging impacts of such policies. This was discussed earlier and was dismissed (by some) since we were going away from lockdowns in the US. Not only are we not going away from them, they are becoming stricter. And in an environment where we no longer have the safety net of stimulus payments to help people financially. 

https://justthenews.com/nearly-50000-doctors-and-scientists-630000-citizens-have-signed-global-anti-lockdown-proclamation

Reacher, this last point is SUPER important. Thank you for sharing it. That we don’t have these payments in place that would allow us to pay people to close is one of the saddest things about this. We try to tell people to lock down and then say, “Good luck paying for food and housing!” 

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1 hour ago, Lostin76 said:

We don’t need to see “both sides” right now. We need to unite behind simple concepts - wear a mask when around others, social distance as much as you can, and avoid indoor situations where COVID can easily spread. That’s it. If we did those things, we wouldn’t be sitting here contemplating new lockdowns and not seeing our families for the holidays.

Wow. Reread what you wrote. No need to see both sides. Guess there is no reason for free speech or science anymore.

People are wearing masks, social distancing and avoiding restaurants (they are all closed around me).  Spread is still increasing. How is that possible? Could it be that the virus travels through aerosols as the Dr below points out and that masks are generally ineffective in slowing the spread?

Calm down, take a deep breath and actually look and think about, what people are saying instead of writing them off for whatever reason.

 

Is this guy also a quack?

“He received his general medical degrees from Cambridge University in the UK (M.A., M.B., B. Chir.) where he was a scholar at Corpus Christi College. Following a residency at the University of British Columbia he became a Royal College certified general pathologist (FRCPC) and also a Fellow of the College of American Pathologists (FCAP).”

“He is in good Standing with the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta, and has been recognized by the Court of Queen’s Bench in Alberta as an expert in pathology.”

Noting that he was also an expert in virology, Hodkinson pointed out that his role as CEO of a biotech company that manufactures COVID tests means, “I might know a little bit about all this.”

The doctor also slammed the unreliability of PCR tests, noting that “positive test results do not, underlined in neon, mean a clinical infection,” and that all testing should stop because the false numbers are “driving public hysteria.”

Hodkinson said that the risk of death in the province of Alberta for people under the age of 65 was “one in three hundred thousand,” and that it was simply “outrageous” to shut down society for what the doctor said “was just another bad flu.”

Hodkinson remarked that “social distancing is useless because COVID is spread by aerosols which travel 30 meters or so before landing,” as he called for society to be re-opened immediately to prevent the debilitating damage being caused by lockdowns.

Hodkinson also slammed mandatory mask mandates as completely pointless.

“There is utterly unfounded public hysteria driven by the media and politicians, it’s outrageous, this is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting public,” said Hodkinson.

 

 

If the virus can travel 100 feet and you need N95 masks or greater to have any effect, these current protocols are not going to do much. Why not hand out Vitamin D to everyone? Seems like that might have a much greater benefit/ cost. 

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@ReacherI'm not sure how to ask this without your or others deciding I, as a mod, am taking a political side. I'm not. However, I am going to ask that you immediately back off these CLEARLY politically driven posts / articles. Advocating not wearing masks is just flat out ridiculous and frankly dangerous. The whole ignore-Covid-don't-wear-masks has been a highly political BS tool and it clearly, indisputably and stupidly, caused Covid cases to spread including at political rallies where mask--wearing was discouraged. Covid has killed over 1/4 million Americans. Enough of the BS anti-mask crap.

No, I'm not trying to get into politics. No, I am not OK'ing anyone to do so regardless whether or not they agree or disagree with this take, but yes, I am asking that you immediately knock off the anti-mask stuff. It is not appropriate for this Board, period, and it is re-spurring the political BS that has no place here. We can just lock this thread, if/as needed.

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25 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Wow. Reread what you wrote. No need to see both sides. Guess there is no reason for free speech or science anymore.

People are wearing masks, social distancing and avoiding restaurants (they are all closed around me).  Spread is still increasing. How is that possible? Could it be that the virus travels through aerosols as the Dr below points out and that masks are generally ineffective in slowing the spread?

Calm down, take a deep breath and actually look and think about, what people are saying instead of writing them off for whatever reason.

 

Is this guy also a quack?

“He received his general medical degrees from Cambridge University in the UK (M.A., M.B., B. Chir.) where he was a scholar at Corpus Christi College. Following a residency at the University of British Columbia he became a Royal College certified general pathologist (FRCPC) and also a Fellow of the College of American Pathologists (FCAP).”

“He is in good Standing with the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta, and has been recognized by the Court of Queen’s Bench in Alberta as an expert in pathology.”

Noting that he was also an expert in virology, Hodkinson pointed out that his role as CEO of a biotech company that manufactures COVID tests means, “I might know a little bit about all this.”

The doctor also slammed the unreliability of PCR tests, noting that “positive test results do not, underlined in neon, mean a clinical infection,” and that all testing should stop because the false numbers are “driving public hysteria.”

Hodkinson said that the risk of death in the province of Alberta for people under the age of 65 was “one in three hundred thousand,” and that it was simply “outrageous” to shut down society for what the doctor said “was just another bad flu.”

Hodkinson remarked that “social distancing is useless because COVID is spread by aerosols which travel 30 meters or so before landing,” as he called for society to be re-opened immediately to prevent the debilitating damage being caused by lockdowns.

Hodkinson also slammed mandatory mask mandates as completely pointless.

“There is utterly unfounded public hysteria driven by the media and politicians, it’s outrageous, this is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting public,” said Hodkinson.

 

 

If the virus can travel 100 feet and you need N95 masks or greater to have any effect, these current protocols are not going to do much. Why not hand out Vitamin D to everyone? Seems like that might have a much greater benefit/ cost. 

No need to reread. I stand by every word. I am done with “both side” BS on this. People are dying, many more will die before we get a handle on this. And you continue to try to muddy the waters with this pseudo-science crap.

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4 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

@ReacherI'm not sure how to ask this without your or others deciding I, as a mod, am taking a political side. I'm not. However, I am going to ask that you immediately back off these CLEARLY politically driven posts / articles. Advocating not wearing masks is just flat out ridiculous and frankly dangerous. The whole ignore-Covid-don't-wear-masks has been a highly political BS tool and it clearly, indisputably and stupidly, caused Covid cases to spread including at political rallies where mask--wearing was discouraged. Covid has killed over 1/4 million Americans. Enough of the BS anti-mask crap.

No, I'm not trying to get into politics. No, I am not OK'ing anyone to do so regardless whether or not they agree or disagree with this take, but yes, I am asking that you immediately knock off the anti-mask stuff. It is not appropriate for this Board, period, and it is re-spurring the political BS that has no place here. We can just lock this thread, if/as needed.

Masks seem to be a big issue now. I'm not espousing not wearing masks. I also do not see this as political. 

I'm not an anti masker and wear one religiously.

Here is a lead article on Drudge today- https://www.the-sun.com/news/1826530/supermarkets-most-common-place-catch-covid/ saying supermarkets are the leading cause of spread. Even though all supermarkets require masks. 

The spread of Covid is picking up to an all time high and there is a lot of news out there. I wish we could focus on that instead of trying to drag in politics.

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People must be living in way different places than me.  Around me, restaurants are supposed to be carry out only, and 6 out of the 7 in the towns that make up my school district are still open for in person eating.  Going into any of the gas stations, you'll be lucky to see anybody else wearing a mask.

I'm in a rural area so I get that people might not be as strict about things as in cities, but in public I don't even see 25% of people wearing masks.  This idea that everyone is wearing masks isn't even close.  Our county is getting close to a 20% positivity rate, and the county health department can't keep up with contact tracing because we're having so many cases.  Still very few people wearing masks.

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Here's an easy way to spot doctors/scientists who are just looking for notoriety.

If they use the words scam, hoax, or spiderweb of lies (or whatever that crazy video this summer said), they are just looking for notoriety.  Reputable doctors and scientists don't talk like that.  If you see any of those things being referenced, find a different source.

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23 minutes ago, Leathernecks said:

People must be living in way different places than me.  Around me, restaurants are supposed to be carry out only, and 6 out of the 7 in the towns that make up my school district are still open for in person eating.  Going into any of the gas stations, you'll be lucky to see anybody else wearing a mask.

I'm in a rural area so I get that people might not be as strict about things as in cities, but in public I don't even see 25% of people wearing masks.  This idea that everyone is wearing masks isn't even close.  Our county is getting close to a 20% positivity rate, and the county health department can't keep up with contact tracing because we're having so many cases.  Still very few people wearing masks.

Oof, this Is a perfect example of why we are having this new spread. We just went over 3% here and people are freaking out. Our neighborhood is pretty good about masks and distancing. We have all got used to queuing up for the bakery, coffee shop, wine shop, etc. Stores only allow a certain number of people inside and woe to someone who tries to enter a Brooklyn establishment w/o a mask. They are just not having it here. 

I watched a tiny barista at our local coffee place just shut down this hulking guy who tried to order w/o a mask. She made him leave with his tail between his legs and people were cheering as he walked out cussing. 

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15 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Masks seem to be a big issue now. I'm not espousing not wearing masks. I also do not see this as political. 

I'm not an anti masker and wear one religiously.

Here is a lead article on Drudge today- https://www.the-sun.com/news/1826530/supermarkets-most-common-place-catch-covid/ saying supermarkets are the leading cause of spread. Even though all supermarkets require masks. 

The spread of Covid is picking up to an all time high and there is a lot of news out there. I wish we could focus on that instead of trying to drag in politics.

I'm not saying this in a sarcastic way (I'm really not), but I think you should read the article if you didn't already.

"

Experts at PHE today insisted their data did not suggest supermarkets were at the centre of coronavirus transmission in the UK, saying it does not prove where someone was infected with the disease.

And Helen Dickinson, the chief executive of the British Retail Consortium, said it was 'misleading and irresponsible' to suggest supermarkets are a source of Covid-19 transmission.

She said: 'Supermarkets are one of the very few places that people can visit during lockdown so it is unsurprising that they feature strongly when people are asked where they have visited.'"

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16 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

Oof, this Is a perfect example of why we are having this new spread. We just went over 3% here and people are freaking out. Our neighborhood is pretty good about masks and distancing. We have all got used to queuing up for the bakery, coffee shop, wine shop, etc. Stores only allow a certain number of people inside and woe to someone who tries to enter a Brooklyn establishment w/o a mask. They are just not having it here. 

I watched a tiny barista at our local coffee place just shut down this hulking guy who tried to order w/o a mask. She made him leave with his tail between his legs and people were cheering as he walked out cussing. 

I just looked again, and the 7 day positivity rate in my county is just over 20%.  If that barista ever needs a new job, send her this way.  Places here just don't care.

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7 minutes ago, Leathernecks said:

I'm not saying this in a sarcastic way (I'm really not), but I think you should read the article if you didn't already.

"Experts at PHE today insisted their data did not suggest supermarkets were at the centre of coronavirus transmission in the UK, saying it does not prove where someone was infected with the disease.

And Helen Dickinson, the chief executive of the British Retail Consortium, said it was 'misleading and irresponsible' to suggest supermarkets are a source of Covid-19 transmission.

She said: 'Supermarkets are one of the very few places that people can visit during lockdown so it is unsurprising that they feature strongly when people are asked where they have visited.'"

I did read it and understand its no where near a highly scientific study. Doesn't mean that I don't give it some credence. I Actually told my father a few minutes ago to limit even more his trips to the store. Like masks, it can't hurt.

What else would you expect the head of the retail consortium to say?

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