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Reacher
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1 hour ago, Reacher said:

I still think IU is opening themselves up to some serious liability.  Doesn't matter that schools have been able to mandate vaccines in the past, this one is a little different with some pretty serious unknowns due to the speed of bringing it to market and the myocarditis issue that's cropped up among young people.

Mark these words...there will be lawsuits that result from this mandate.

Full disclosure:  I am Pfizer double vaccinated with no issues and no regrets, but I think it's an entirely different equation for healthy young people.

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1 hour ago, FKIM01 said:

I still think IU is opening themselves up to some serious liability.  Doesn't matter that schools have been able to mandate vaccines in the past, this one is a little different with some pretty serious unknowns due to the speed of bringing it to market and the myocarditis issue that's cropped up among young people.

Mark these words...there will be lawsuits that result from this mandate.

Full disclosure:  I am Pfizer double vaccinated with no issues and no regrets, but I think it's an entirely different equation for healthy young people.

I have to disagree. Of course there will be lawsuits, but it doesn’t mean that they’ll win. This one was taken to a federal court and the ruling was in IU’s favor. 

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It's important to understand, he [Judge Leichty] said, that the university isn't forcing anyone to get a vaccine. It's offering students and staff options: They can either get the vaccine, apply for an exemption or find a new school to attend (or, in the case of staff, a new job). Since the policy only applies to the fall 2021 semester, students can also choose to take the semester off or attend all remote classes.

And that‚Äôs what it is going to come down to 99% of the time in my non-expert legal opinion: ‚Äėif you don‚Äôt like it¬†then go somewhere else, take classes online or take the semester off.‚Äô

Students are given options and not forced to do anything. 

 

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31 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I have to disagree. Of course there will be lawsuits, but it doesn’t mean that they’ll win. This one was taken to a federal court and the ruling was in IU’s favor. 

Nah, you don't have to disagree.  I never said they will win, BUT...this is also a different kind of lawsuit than the one that the students just lost, as in infringing on personal freedoms vs. potential wrongful death.

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The vaccine was able to get to market quickly because we threw cost out the window and spent billions that, in a normal environment, wouldn't be spent.

That the "vaccine is untested" is a myth that we cannot seem to shake.  It fits people's worldview, and that's fine, but they had the base of this vaccine developed before COVID even hit.  From there, it was plug and play.

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/how-were-researchers-able-develop-covid-19-vaccines-so-quickly
 

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Nevertheless, those wondering about vaccine safety may be encouraged that despite the speed in which these vaccines have been developed, the important regulatory and evaluation checkpoints designed to protect patients were followed. These milestones help to determine how safe and effective a vaccine will be, and whether or not the benefits are worth any potential risks.

 

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Maybe untested isn't the right word, but no offense intended, I'll remain a tad bit skeptical that we had time for the same level of testing that most vaccines go through.  If no corners were cut in getting this to the public, the question remains as to why other drugs/vaccines take so long to get to market.  It can't be all money...some of it is undoubtedly FDA red tape.  Is it necessary red tape or not?  That's a valid question.

Beyond that, as with any new drug or vaccine, no matter how much money and resources you throw at development, some issues simply take time to manifest.  Again, I'm not anti on this vaccine...I think it's done a great job of knocking the severity and spread of this virus down, but it's still hard for me to swallow the assurances that it's virtually risk-free in the absence of time passing.

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I think if anyone says it's risk free, they're being foolish with their messaging.  It is, though, quite clearly a significant risk reduction compared to not having it.  Additionally, this is a situation where our actions impact those around us.  Getting the vaccine makes our entire community safer, which is why institutions like IU are mandating it.  

I just answered your question of why other vaccines take longer to get to market - drug companies, driven largely by motivations of profit, don't want to waste the billions of dollars for potentially invalid vaccines.  The government, faced with a pandemic, didn't have those cares.  If this were a "normal" situation and a "normal" company like Pfizer were to have spent those billions on manufacturing/et al for a vaccine they weren't even sure worked, their CEO would have been fired on the spot.

That's why this was different.

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I am not Anti corona Vax, I am however NOT corona vaccinated and I will remain that way. Having said that, a few thoughts. 

You do you, I'll do me.

I do not agree at all with those saying the Vax is not safe or not "approved". - There is no such thing as zero risk in ANYTHING, there is acceptable risk with this vax. Many of todays public can't imagine doing an ROI on human life (risk), but I am sorry, it's critical to do and drives what is important for the masses.

You do you, I'll do me.

The vax timeline to market was pushed through. It should have been. There was a virus pandemic and an emotional pandemic, the population needed something. Standard FDA timeline's would not work for several reasons. Yes The timeline was extremely escalated because money was thrown at it, Yes it was extremely escalated because red tape was cut/ dissolved/ removed. Potato, Potato. The normal FDA process is total BS on 99% of new product. 

You do you, I'll do me.

If private companies feel they want to deny my business due to not being vax'ed, I'm good with that. That is a basic free market principle. If a (my) tax funded institution accepts my money, but won't allow my patronage, Different story.

You do you, I'll do me.

If you are vaxed, I am no harm to you at all.

You do you, I'll do me.        

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I think there is a difference between 60 year olds and 20 year olds here. How many 20 year olds have natural antibodies due to having already had  Covid? Are antibody tests ok for the University? If not, why not?  Mandating vaccines for people that have already had Covid is a new issue here. What types of studies have been done on young people and those who already have immunity? What are the risks for young people not being vaccinated? We know they do not represent a large % of the hospitalizations and deaths. 

Until some of these questions get answered, it is natural, and healthy IMO, to have some skepticism.

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On 7/18/2021 at 10:43 PM, 5fouls said:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/18/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/index.html

 

"Most people will either get vaccinated, or have been previously infected, or they will get this Delta variant," Dr. Scott Gottlieb told CBS' "Face the Nation" on Sunday.
 
"And for most people who get this Delta variant, it's going to be the most serious virus that they get in their lifetime in terms of the risk of putting them in the hospital," said Gottlieb, who was commissioner of the US Food and Drug Administration during the Trump administration.
 
In research posted online, scientists examining 62 cases of the Delta variant found viral loads about 1,260 times higher than those found from 63 cases from the early epidemic wave in 2020.
 
"You have to get vaccinated," O'Neal said. "That's the only way to end it. Masks and mitigation, they're not going to take it. It's going to be vaccination."
 

 

 

 

"Most people will either get vaccinated, or have been previously infected, or they will get this Delta variant," 

"You have to get vaccinated," O'Neal said. "That's the only way to end it."

Wouldn't everyone else getting the delta variant essentially put us above 70% or even greater, thus herd immunity, thus ending it?

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33 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

"Most people will either get vaccinated, or have been previously infected, or they will get this Delta variant," 

"You have to get vaccinated," O'Neal said. "That's the only way to end it."

Wouldn't everyone else getting the delta variant essentially put us above 70% or even greater, thus herd immunity, thus ending it?

With the number of breakthrough cases that are happening, we may never get totally over it.  What I hope happens when we reach herd immunity is that serious cases and deaths are low enough that the country, and eventually the world, can reach a point of risk acceptance where it is not so disruptive.   

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2 hours ago, 5fouls said:

With the number of breakthrough cases that are happening, we may never get totally over it.  What I hope happens when we reach herd immunity is that serious cases and deaths are low enough that the country, and eventually the world, can reach a point of risk acceptance where it is not so disruptive.   

If the delta is going to quickly run it's course, we may reach herd pretty quick.  

 

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I think the key to understand is that while the vaccinated are getting infected, the vaccines are doing their jobs and limiting the seriousness (hospitalizations and deaths not increasing nearly to the level of infections). I think natural immunity is likely better than the vaccines and would like to know how many people that had COVID are getting reinfected. Seems to me we should be tracking immunity with antibody tests and not focusing so much on the vaccines (for admission to IU as an example).

Also, COVID is 1000+ times worse for the older than younger (unsure what age groups were used) and most older are now vaccinated. Younger people getting infected and not being hospitalized and dying COULD be beneficial. We'll have to see how that plays out. Key is to keep getting older and at risk persons vaccinated.

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The end of PCR tests? 

https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html

I wonder who will be making $ from the new tests?

Is this an effort to lower the number of cases? We know the PCR results in a lot of false positives by including dead remnants of the virus at high cycle threshold levels.

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So our department has 6 people, all of which are vaccinated, 4 of which had COVID. Just now one of them pulled me aside and he’s letting us know his wife (unvaccinated) now has COVID.

life goes on, there’s no protocol here at work for this.

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In order for us to board our flight back to JFK from Milan on Monday at 11am, we had to have a negative COVID test. We were able to fly to Italy by showing our vaccination status, but we still had to have a negative test in Italy no more than three days before our boarding time of 11am on Monday. AND we had to upload the negative test result four hours before our 11am flight. Which is fun in a country ntly that shuts down for three hours every afternoon and takes their weekends very seriously. 

But the idiotic three day rule meant we had to wait until Friday to get a test. So, Friday morning as we were leaving our place In Tuscany we found a lab that was offering COVID tests w/o appointments or referrals - that was NOT easy. My wife and I know two dozen words in Italian between us. We stood in line at the lab and then finally when it was out turn, we got our forms and stumbled through filling them out. They knew we were idiot tourists, so they made us stand aside while actual Italians with appointments were taken care of. Then they made us fill out more forms. We got the test (160 euros) and they sent us on our way pointing to a website on the form to check for results. 

We checked the website all day and nothing. Then we used Google translate to figure out that test results were guaranteed by noon on Monday - an hour after our flight boards. My wife was in full on panic mode. We were heading to Lake Como for our last days and figured out that we could get rapid tests at the Milan airport over the weekend. But by that point, she had a bad sore throat and headache, totally convinced that she had COVID and would be required to stay in Italy for another 10-14 days. 

I told her we would wait until Saturday morning for our results and if they didn’t come through we would drive to the Milan airport for rapid tests. By that point, even I was sweating it. Luckily we got a text shortly after midnight with our negative test results! 

We were careful in Italy, which was easy b/c they take COVID very seriously. Absolutely no entry anywhere indoors w/o masks, but all of our dining was outdoors anyway. Did have a couple interesting conversations with people about the US response to COVID and vaccinations. They seemed gobsmacked by our response to COVID. 

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