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What happened to follow the science?

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/pharmacy/two-top-fda-vaccine-leaders-to-retire.html

Two of the FDA's top vaccine leaders are stepping down from their positions, Endpoints News reported Aug. 31, citing an internal letter sent to FDA staff. 

Marion Gruber, PhD, director of the FDA's Office of Vaccines Research & Review, will retire Oct. 31. She's been with the FDA for 32 years. Phil Krause, MD, the vaccine office's deputy director, will leave in November, according to the letter from Peter Marks, MD, PhD, who leads the agency's Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research. 

A former senior FDA leader told Endpoints News the two leaders are stepping down from their roles because they're frustrated that the CDC and its Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices are involved in decisions they believe should be the FDA's. The White House's announcement that booster shots would be available Sept. 20, which was made without the FDA's approval, was reportedly what prompted the two leaders to step down. 

The FDA's former acting chief scientist Luciana Borio, MD, tweeted Aug. 31: "FDA is losing two giants who helped bring us many safe and effective vaccines over decades of public service."

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3 hours ago, btownqb said:

Got the shot yesterday or the first shot.  

Feel like h*** today. 

People that have had covid(me) are seeing the first shot making them feel bad, more so than the 2nd, right? 

Feel free to choose not to answer but did you get an antibody test before getting the shot? Since you've had Covid and likely antibodies why did you feel the need to get a shot? Again, feel free not to answer. Just wondering about how long antibodies might stay active in the system and help fight future infection.

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3 hours ago, Billingsley99 said:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/09/01/us/oregon-schools-superintendent-fired-mask-mandate/index.html

An example of following the rules and uninformed people do what they want.  another reason why I have always wondered why people that have never been in the classroom are on school board. Ours is a bunch of farmers worried about high taxes.in public schools the kids are last on the list when it comes to decision making.  It would like me making decisions for a construction company and having no clue on how to build anything but doing all the hiring and firing

Around me, it's all sports, sports, sports that drive board decisions...and we wonder why our system is failing kids.

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1 hour ago, dgambill said:

Feel free to choose not to answer but did you get an antibody test before getting the shot? Since you've had Covid and likely antibodies why did you feel the need to get a shot? Again, feel free not to answer. Just wondering about how long antibodies might stay active in the system and help fight future infection.

Because my employer is not going to take my sick days if they deem me a close contact.  Only reason.  

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12 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Because my employer is not going to take my sick days if they deem me a close contact.  Only reason.  

Whole point of a vaccine is to produce an antibody reaction to help prevent future infection. If you already have the antibody it seems this is a moot point. Now that it's shown that the vaccine doesn't prevent infection and/or transmission (just greatly reduces serious hospitalization) well this seems a disingenuous policy. Sorry to hear that. A lot of bad policies going around as a result of this virus.

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35 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Around me, it's all sports, sports, sports that drive board decisions...and we wonder why our system is failing kids.

I think I could write a book about all the ways schools are failing kids. There was a thread from a few years ago. Maybe time to revive it.

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Study says over 80% of Americans 16 and older have some level of immunity against Covid.  

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/02/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/index.html

More than 80% of Americans 16 and older have some level of immunity against the coronavirus, mostly through vaccination, a survey of blood donations indicates.

 
The survey, led by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, also indicates that about twice as many people have been infected with the virus as have been officially counted. More than 39 million Americans have been diagnosed with coronavirus infection since the pandemic started in 2020.
 
The team, led by the CDC's Dr. Jefferson Jones, set out to determine how close the US might be to some kind of herd immunity -- although they do not claim to have any kind of handle on that yet.
 
 
They worked with 17 blood collection organizations working in all 50 states plus Washington, DC, and Puerto Rico to test blood covering 74% of the population. In the end, they tested about 1.4 million samples.
 
In July 2020, before any vaccine was available, 3.5% of samples carried antibodies to SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19. That rose to 11.5% by December, they reported in the medical journal JAMA. By May, 83.3% of samples had antibodies to the virus, most of them from vaccination.
 
And while in July 2020, blood surveillance indicated the US was only counting one infection out of every three true infections, that fell to one in two a year later.
 
This was all pre-Delta, the researchers caution. Plus, they didn't measure the other part of the human response -- one involving cells known as T-cells -- and one that might induce broader immunity. But knowing who has antibodies can help inform public health efforts.
 
"Several large studies have shown that among individuals who are seropositive from prior SARS-CoV-2 infection, COVID-19 incidence is reduced by 80% to 95%, similar to vaccine efficacy estimates," they noted.
 
"The study will continue until at least December 2021, and results will be made available on the CDC's website," they wrote.
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18 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Study says over 80% of Americans 16 and older have some level of immunity against Covid.  

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/02/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/index.html

More than 80% of Americans 16 and older have some level of immunity against the coronavirus, mostly through vaccination, a survey of blood donations indicates.

 
The survey, led by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, also indicates that about twice as many people have been infected with the virus as have been officially counted. More than 39 million Americans have been diagnosed with coronavirus infection since the pandemic started in 2020.
 
The team, led by the CDC's Dr. Jefferson Jones, set out to determine how close the US might be to some kind of herd immunity -- although they do not claim to have any kind of handle on that yet.
 
 
They worked with 17 blood collection organizations working in all 50 states plus Washington, DC, and Puerto Rico to test blood covering 74% of the population. In the end, they tested about 1.4 million samples.
 
In July 2020, before any vaccine was available, 3.5% of samples carried antibodies to SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19. That rose to 11.5% by December, they reported in the medical journal JAMA. By May, 83.3% of samples had antibodies to the virus, most of them from vaccination.
 
And while in July 2020, blood surveillance indicated the US was only counting one infection out of every three true infections, that fell to one in two a year later.
 
This was all pre-Delta, the researchers caution. Plus, they didn't measure the other part of the human response -- one involving cells known as T-cells -- and one that might induce broader immunity. But knowing who has antibodies can help inform public health efforts.
 
"Several large studies have shown that among individuals who are seropositive from prior SARS-CoV-2 infection, COVID-19 incidence is reduced by 80% to 95%, similar to vaccine efficacy estimates," they noted.
 
"The study will continue until at least December 2021, and results will be made available on the CDC's website," they wrote.

I'm not sure what the "official" number for "herd immunity" was...but 80% would have to be pretty darn close. I think the idea of eradicating COVID by achieving 100% vaccination is going to prove to be a foolish notion and dangerous to the efforts of convincing people to take the necessary precautions against Covid. While certainly the positives of the vaccines have had in lowering deaths and serious illness it is increasingly obvious with the Delta variant and the others already on their way like the MU variant etc that this virus will be with us likely forever and no vaccine will be the magic bullet to total immunity. More likely it will look like influenza where we will always have waves and outbreaks of illness and at the best we can protect our most vulnerable population through continued boosters targeting these variants (like we did with our yearly flu shots) and safety measures and treatments but people will always be contracting and spreading it even after they've been vaccinated because the virus has been mutating at such a rapid rate will find a way around our best vaccines. Even if every American gets vaccinated this virus will continue to circulate the planet and continue mutating and eventually getting around our vaccines.

I think that our media and medical experts would be wise to pivot on the narrative in fighting this virus and really really be honest and forth right about taking a 3 pronged approach. At first it was simply mask up and wash your hands and social distance. Then it was simply vaccination alone will save us. Up until now we've heard basically zero discussion on therapeutics and anyone speaking on those get's destroyed. If we are to be credible I think it is well past time to focus on that portion of the equation so that we have the most robust defense against Covid. We need to be honest about co-morbidities and their role in this pandemic. Honest discussions about obesity...masks...so many things. This just one size fits all approach where we shove one solution down everyone's throats and only talk about one solution won't work. If we don't leave room for valid open discourse and really be transparent about the facts and ALL the ways to combat Covid I think will only make things worse, cause public distrust, and lead to less desirable outcomes in the long run. The goal is to limit the spread, save lives, and get back to normal. Certainly vaccines are an important weapon in this battle but they can only take us so far and I think its well past time we hear more about therapeutics, the importance of building a healthy natural immune system, discussions about the real deathly dangers of obesity and other measures to lessen the severity of Covid and learn to live with it. Maybe we will see some advances and improvement on this front. Sure would be nice. Desantis just opened a monoclonal antibody treatment site here locally and the news has been very slow to get out. It's quick no cost treatment (already paid by tax dollars like shots) to those who go in and the word has been it has been a resounding success in lowering hospitalizations. We need more treatments like these and others and we need to inform people there are treatments before filling up our hospitals and before getting so far along treatment becomes difficult.  Sorry for the long post!

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Who knows if they’re right or not, but this seems to be the first example (if true) of what people have been warning about: a potential variant that evades antibodies. The longer this runs, it seems like we approach when and not if that such a variant occurs. 
 

people can make whatever decisions they want, but this is why some people are passionately pro-vaccine and pro-masking. We are letting a dangerous disease stick around. This affects me too, even though I’m already vaccinated. 
 

I am genuinely not trying to convince people of anything - i am just explaining my frustrations. 

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7 hours ago, HoosierFaithful said:

Who knows if they’re right or not, but this seems to be the first example (if true) of what people have been warning about: a potential variant that evades antibodies. The longer this runs, it seems like we approach when and not if that such a variant occurs. 
 

people can make whatever decisions they want, but this is why some people are passionately pro-vaccine and pro-masking. We are letting a dangerous disease stick around. This affects me too, even though I’m already vaccinated. 
 

I am genuinely not trying to convince people of anything - i am just explaining my frustrations. 

Here's the thing, even vaccinated you can still get sick, you still spread the virus. Which means variants are coming regardless,  as the vaccine is not a cure. 

It's a virus. From day one people were pretty much saying that this will be here for ever. We haven't cured the common cold, or the flu. Frustration should be with false hope given by the world governments, because the reality is they were speaking in facts and truths, when they had little idea of what they are talking about.  

The personal debate is do you want natural immunity, or be content with taking shots the rest of your life.

I'm definitely not antivax. I'm just very anti-mandate to something that is not a cure, and never will be.

 

Edited by hoosier_exotics
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Sent by an anti-vax buddy:

https://www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/what-the-church-needs-to-know-about-covid-19-2307dc2a111c

At first glance, it appears to contain a mixture of truth and fiction.  The most glaring omission I see is not addressing the high percentage of unvaccinated among the hospitalized.

No, I don't see vaccines as a long-term solution but there does appear to be a benefit to those who have yet to be exposed to the virus.

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Personally,  I think governments made a huge mistake by bringing back the mask mandates. Most people I know that took the shot, based on they were told no more masks.  Now you have a lot of pissed off people, that probably won't follow the next set of guidelines.  As well as a bunch of non vax peeps using it as a " told ya so" moment.

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Every time I hear someone dismiss the vaccine because 'even vaccinated people can spread it', I think to myself...."Well, yeah, but why are we ignoring the fact that the vaccines reduce serious illness, hospitalizations, and death.  Therefore, over time, the impacts to the economy and our everyday lives would also be diminished."

I'm glad my parents & grandparents, and the vast majority of others in their generation, fully understood and appreciated the concept of 'the good of all mankind'.  Because of that, I was able to live over 50 years of my life not worried about things like polio, smallpox, hepatitis, whooping cough, etc.

Alas, my own generation seems to have a different opinion on vaccines, which could result in the remainder of my time on earth being lived in a much different type of world.  I just hope the next generation is more like my parents and grandparents were so that my children and grandchildren can ultimately live in a world more similar to the one I had my first 50 years on earth.

Edited by 5fouls
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1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Every time I hear someone dismiss the vaccine because 'even vaccinated people can spread it', I think to myself...."Well, yeah, but why are we ignoring the fact that the vaccines reduce serious illness, hospitalizations, and death.  Therefore, over time, the impacts to the economy and our everyday lives would also be diminished."

I'm glad my parents & grandparents, and the vast majority of others in their generation, fully understood and appreciated the concept of 'the good of all mankind'.  Because of that, I was able to live over 50 years of my life not worried about things like polio, smallpox, hepatitis, whooping cough, etc.

Alas, my own generation seems to have a different opinion on vaccines, which could result in the remainder of my time on earth being lived in a much different type of world.  I just hope the next generation is more like my parents and grandparents were so that my children and grandchildren can ultimately live in a world more similar to the one I had my first 50 years on earth.

I really worry that this craziness around the Covid vaccine has created a whole new group of parents who don't vaccinate their kids from the things you mentioned.

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16 minutes ago, Leathernecks said:

I really worry that this craziness around the Covid vaccine has created a whole new group of parents who don't vaccinate their kids from the things you mentioned.

I'm pretty sure that group already existed. "Vaccines cause autism" was a thing on social media well before Covid was around. 

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Interesting watching what is going on in Israel. The most vaccinated country now has the highest rate of covid in the world. The vaccinated are catching it and ending up with much higher viral loads and transmitting it.

And in Europe, they are not recommending boosters except for at risk groups. 

Hopefully we can learn from what works and doesn't work in other parts of the world. 

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4 hours ago, TheWatShot said:

I'm pretty sure that group already existed. "Vaccines cause autism" was a thing on social media well before Covid was around. 

I know a few of those people. I just meant that I hope it doesn't get extra traction among new people. Don't need any more of that going around.

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I stated way back on page 1, I was worried about the supply chain! Talking with my daughter today who lives in CA she mentioned there were  42 container ships waiting to dock because of the lack of employees! I said I was thankful that I had two containers get through X-ray last week!

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A really good article about the ‘end game’ of COVID: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/covid-how-will-it-end/2021/09/04/44bdd69a-fed7-11eb-a664-4f6de3e17ff0_story.html

It does a good job of balancing a range of predictions from pessimistic to optimistic. I think overall it really highlights that so much of the public’s frustration is that we want answers, but it’s impossible to get them. You can have 3 experts in infectious disease and the their answers/predictions will alter slightly or greatly.  

*If you’ve reached your monthly allowance of WP articles then you can open in an incognito tab. 

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One of my favorite follows on Twitter from this terrible time, a brilliant scientist: 

tl;dr:

  • He estimates, based on the raw number of cases, that we might be exactly at the Delta peak.  
  • Delta is the dominant strain globally and "may displace other variants [including Mu] in the coming weeks"
  • It will have taken 1yr for Delta to basically encompass the entire world, whereas it normally takes the seasonal flu 2-5 years
  • He says it is "highly likely" that the next impactful variant will be a sub-variant of Delta and recommends immediate updating of vaccines to be prepared.  He says this would be an "easy win"
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