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Reacher
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1 hour ago, rico said:

Had my 1st test y-day---negative.

This used to mean something totally different a couple of years ago lol. I remember a college friend getting a test...lol he wasn't so lucky. Although I'm pretty sure he took some antibiotics and he was fine. 😝

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5 hours ago, dgambill said:

This used to mean something totally different a couple of years ago lol. I remember a college friend getting a test...lol he wasn't so lucky. Although I'm pretty sure he took some antibiotics and he was fine. 😝

One of the funniest and painful moments I heard once at IU. Drove my buddy to IU Health Center that used to be across from Library. He got into some strange and started getting the burn. I have no clue what they actually do for that test but I hear him yelling in the Dr's room while I'm in tears in the lobby laughing. 

Back on topic though. Keep being safe gang. Had 2 people in last 10 days die from Covid here in my neck of the woods. 40's and 50's age wise, otherwise healthy. One vaccinated one not. 

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28 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

One of the funniest and painful moments I heard once at IU. Drove my buddy to IU Health Center that used to be across from Library. He got into some strange and started getting the burn. I have no clue what they actually do for that test but I hear him yelling in the Dr's room while I'm in tears in the lobby laughing. 

Back on topic though. Keep being safe gang. Had 2 people in last 10 days die from Covid here in my neck of the woods. 40's and 50's age wise, otherwise healthy. One vaccinated one not. 

I asked an old NCO I had in the USAF who had just come back from Korea (remote tour) what the hardest adjustment coming back to his family was...

"Trying to tell your wife why she needs a penicillin shot for your bladder infection." 

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Has anyone seen any data on which of the three vaccines is doing better in preventing hospitalizations and deaths among the vaccinated?  Do the numbers of hospitalizations match up with the percentage of people in the general population have that particular vaccine, or are there significant variations in the percentages? 

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16 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

One of the funniest and painful moments I heard once at IU. Drove my buddy to IU Health Center that used to be across from Library. He got into some strange and started getting the burn. I have no clue what they actually do for that test but I hear him yelling in the Dr's room while I'm in tears in the lobby laughing. 

Back on topic though. Keep being safe gang. Had 2 people in last 10 days die from Covid here in my neck of the woods. 40's and 50's age wise, otherwise healthy. One vaccinated one not. 

Yikes...I imagine he had something similar to this shoved up....well you get it. 😱

 

swab.jpg

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21 minutes ago, Reacher said:

India having good success with Ivermectin.

https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/

Are we too beholden to Pfizer to study and try this here?

There is good information about this treatment on Bret Weinstein as Darkhorse podcast #87. It's long and covers a lot surrounding covid. He does these with his wife Heather Heying. They are both evolutionary biologists. He claims there is evidence that I reject in can be used to prevent infection and not just as a treatment after the fact. He suggests that part of the problem getting it approved is that the emergency use of the current vaccines was conditional on no other treatment being available.

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1 hour ago, HoosierFaithful said:

It's funny to me that there is such resistance to a proven, wildly successful vaccine but we seem really eager to try unproven, wildly off-label, sometimes proven dangerous methods instead.  

Ivermectin is not an unproven or dangerous drug. It's been in use to treat a number of viral infections for over forty years with very minimal side effects. The guy who discovered it received the Nobel award for it. What I would like to see, based on what I have learned, is a proper srudy done to determine it's effectiveness. That we seem unwilling to do that causes me to question motivations. I'm not anti vaccine. I am pro alternatives, but the powers that be don't seem interested in looking for any. Also important to note is that Imervectin is off patent, so there is not a lot of money to be made from producing it. Bret Weinstein's Darkhorse podcast #80 talks at length about it starting at about the 28:20 minute mark.

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This is just my local news - being admitted to the poison center of the hospital for ivermectin.

It is dangerous and unproven for treating COVID, especially when compared to the vaccine.  My larger question: why are folks so willing to trust things that are, on a comparative scale, significantly less proven to work than a simple vaccine?  This has all just turned into a political punching bag, regrettably.  I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm just a guy talking into the void.  

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1 hour ago, HoosierFaithful said:

It's funny to me that there is such resistance to a proven, wildly successful vaccine but we seem really eager to try unproven, wildly off-label, sometimes proven dangerous methods instead.  

That is a bit odd to me as well. Are some holding the possible short/long term side effects and effectiveness of vaccines to the same standard as other therapeutics, many in the infancy of their research and many with no proven efficacy in either direction? Heck, are some even holding the vaccines to the same standard as the crappy food they're eating? I'm just saying, if somebody is stuffing their face with Doritos and Coke a Cola, please don't lecture me about the possible long term side effects of an mRNA vaccine that's been studied for 30+ plus years when you put additives and sugar in your body on a daily basis, to which we know is 100% unhealthy and linked to all sorts of diseases. 

I'm also unclear to a narrative I see on this forum about therapeutics vs. vaccines. Why does it have to be one or the other? Let's do both! We can walk and chew gum at the same time. In fact, we already are: https://www.fda.gov/drugs/coronavirus-covid-19-drugs/coronavirus-treatment-acceleration-program-ctap

Just because you're pro-vaccine and encourage others to take it, does not mean you are anti-therapeutics.

I'm all for researching therapeutics. If we actually find an effective therapeutic for COVID (a virus) that is as successful at keeping people out of the hospital than the current COVID vaccines, I think that would be a game changer. Not just for COVID, but possibly for other viruses like the common cold, the seasonal flu, AIDS, etc. That said, I just don't think we need to sit around and hold our breath (aka not protect ourselves) for a successfully proven therapeutic to be discovered, researched and then developed when we have a wildly successful vaccine that is free, right now. 

Edited by tdhoosier
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1 hour ago, HoosierFaithful said:

It's funny to me that there is such resistance to a proven, wildly successful vaccine but we seem really eager to try unproven, wildly off-label, sometimes proven dangerous methods instead.  

 

21 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said:

This is just my local news - being admitted to the poison center of the hospital for ivermectin.

It is dangerous and unproven for treating COVID, especially when compared to the vaccine.  My larger question: why are folks so willing to trust things that are, on a comparative scale, significantly less proven to work than a simple vaccine?  This has all just turned into a political punching bag, regrettably.  I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm just a guy talking into the void.  

HSN is not the void!

I don't know how you can say this vaccine is so proven and successful less than 12 months in- or that Ivermectin is not proven as it has been around much longer than the vaccine and, it could be argued, that it has a better safety record. Million are being given it, and other drugs, around the world. So there is not years of study as it relates to COVID, but that is same with every option right now. Perhaps some of the problems are for people taking it on their own and not at a recommended dose? If people were truly dying from it in large numbers, I'd imagine we would hear about that - in addition to to the millions that have benefitted from it.   I think it is a mistake to bury our heads in the sand and not learn from what other countries are doing well, and poor, with.  We do know that there are complications and deaths (albeit minimal) from the vaccines so it is not risk free. 

Turning around your statement, It's funny to me that there is such resistance to a proven, wildly successful therapeutic.

I think it way too premature to say "It is dangerous and unproven for treating COVID, especially when compared to the vaccine."

 

I don't see people arguing against the vaccines for therapeutics. Like @tdhoosier just said above,  I think it is common sense that BOTH have a role. Yet some people, for whatever reason, want to censor and or diminish certain talk. I don't get that. That is the contrary to the essence of science. Try different methods and report honest results. Then people can accurately decide whether the Pfizer, Moderna, or other vaccine is best for them- or maybe not to get a vaccine. 

 

I recently read this-

The study found vaccinated individuals carry 251 times the load of COVID-19 viruses in their nostrils compared to the unvaccinated.

While moderating the symptoms of infection, the jab allows vaccinated individuals to carry unusually high viral loads without becoming ill at first, potentially transforming them into presymptomatic superspreaders. 

This phenomenon may be the source of the shocking post-vaccination surges in heavily vaccinated populations globally. 

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3897733

To early, IMO, to tell how accurate this is but would be rather scary if true!

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24 minutes ago, Reacher said:

 

HSN is not the void!

I don't know how you can say this vaccine is so proven and successful less than 12 months in- or that Ivermectin is not proven as it has been around much longer than the vaccine and, it could be argued, that it has a better safety record. Million are being given it, and other drugs, around the world. So there is not years of study as it relates to COVID, but that is same with every option right now. Perhaps some of the problems are for people taking it on their own and not at a recommended dose? If people were truly dying from it in large numbers, I'd imagine we would hear about that - in addition to to the millions that have benefitted from it.   I think it is a mistake to bury our heads in the sand and not learn from what other countries are doing well, and poor, with.  We do know that there are complications and deaths (albeit minimal) from the vaccines so it is not risk free. 

Turning around your statement, It's funny to me that there is such resistance to a proven, wildly successful therapeutic.

I think it way too premature to say "It is dangerous and unproven for treating COVID, especially when compared to the vaccine."

 

I don't see people arguing against the vaccines for therapeutics. Like @tdhoosier just said above,  I think it is common sense that BOTH have a role. Yet some people, for whatever reason, want to censor and or diminish certain talk. I don't get that. That is the contrary to the essence of science. Try different methods and report honest results. Then people can accurately decide whether the Pfizer, Moderna, or other vaccine is best for them- or maybe not to get a vaccine. 

 

I recently read this-

The study found vaccinated individuals carry 251 times the load of COVID-19 viruses in their nostrils compared to the unvaccinated.

While moderating the symptoms of infection, the jab allows vaccinated individuals to carry unusually high viral loads without becoming ill at first, potentially transforming them into presymptomatic superspreaders. 

This phenomenon may be the source of the shocking post-vaccination surges in heavily vaccinated populations globally. 

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3897733

To early, IMO, to tell how accurate this is but would be rather scary if true!

I'll have to do a lot more reading about that. I have heard other places report that vaccinated had as high or higher load levels but didn't see this extreme. If that is the case then maybe vaccine passports are good. It is keeping the "unclean" vaccinated people from the "clean" unvaccinated. Just the opposite as thought. lol j/k  I know I know I shouldn't make such jokes but man this is the problem....so much conflicting information is out there. Basically creating analysis paralysis almost for some people...and thus they are just playing the wait and see game. I don't think any of that is good. I'm not saying there is one arbiter of truth either. I don't want a Truth Ministry set up by the govt either but man we have such horrible messaging going on it's no wonder we've had so many mis-steps along the way. Our leaders at the top under both administrations did a poor job handling this...and especially from the govt agency's like the CDC who seem to change their opinions and their guidelines based on political pressure.

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15 minutes ago, Reacher said:

I don't know how you can say this vaccine is so proven and successful less than 12 months in

I have a tough time figuring out where you stand sometimes. I say this in good nature because I enjoy our chats. 👍

Just the other day, you linked an article about Denmark, whose population is 86% vaccinated, has began opening up and dropping mandates. Denmark's health officials credited the vaccine. I'd say that is pretty successful. 

We also have the results the CDC collected from public health departments last week. Per the results below, i'd say that's pretty darn successful too. Roughly 10 in 11 people hospitalized with COVID are unvaccinated. Yes, delta brought an increase in breakout cases, but it's still doing its job and its doing its job well. 

image.png.fbea5336a06c1ca424a90ebf27f7a943.png

 

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19 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I have a tough time figuring out where you stand sometimes. I say this in good nature because I enjoy our chats. 👍

Just the other day, you linked an article about Denmark, whose population is 86% vaccinated, has began opening up and dropping mandates. Denmark's health officials credited the vaccine. I'd say that is pretty successful. 

We also have the results the CDC collected from public health departments last week. Per the results below, i'd say that's pretty darn successful too. Roughly 10 in 11 people hospitalized with COVID are unvaccinated. Yes, delta brought an increase in breakout cases, but it's still doing its job and its doing its job well. 

image.png.fbea5336a06c1ca424a90ebf27f7a943.png

 

I don't want to speak for @Reacher but most of the stuff I've read him contribute concludes that there is not a one size fits all solution to this. Vaccines might be the Army but we are going to need support from other areas too. Many people can not be vaccinated due to health issues. Many simply believe that having had COVID already means their immune system did it's job and they don't need a vaccine. Many people worry about long term implications and side effects of the vaccine. Many are yes...anti-vaxxers in general or anti-govt. I may not understand or agree with every side of the arguement but I respect them all as equally important citizens of our society and that we should try to reach people where they are. Instead of forcing them to come to my side is to go meet them where they are at and find a solution that works for them. To do this it may take time and it may take coming up with solutions that work for them that they are comfortable with. Theraputics can be just that. While I think this board has been pretty eager to support all the ways to fight the virus I don't think all of them get equal treatment and equal promotion in the media and with our govt. How many times have they talked about antibody treatments or Ivermectin or any of the positive results even if they aren't a cure. How many times do they come out and talk about ways to improve your immune system. Vitamin D, Zinc, and immune boosting foods and vitamins. About losing weight and lowering risk factors like not smoking or vaping and healthy diet and exercise. I took it serious the first time I heard that overweight people were having a harder time with this. I immediately changed my diet. I've lost almost 35 lbs and dropped 2 pant sizes. Finally dropped below 200lbs and still working at it. It was a wake up call that I needed. I might have carried 6'2 and 235 ok but I knew with things I'd talked to my doctor if I wasn't carrying the extra weight I could really improve my health stats and when I go back to my check up I really think he will take me off my blood pressure medication possibly. I think the point is...we need to keep looking for answers...and we need to help as many people in as many forms as possible. We can start at vaccines...but that doesn't mean the conversation has to end there. I see no harm in providing helpful info that will help people no matter where they fall on this spectrum.

 

Oh and as far as that slide goes...I'd question the 5X infection. I'd say there is pretty good evidence to make a conclusion that since vaccinated people aren't as likely to get seriously ill they probably are much much less likely to get tested and go unreported. Considering the case counts after having over 65% of the country vaccinated is this high....tells me there are tons of vaccinated people spreading it as well. Just more likely assymptomatically.

Edited by dgambill
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11 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I have a tough time figuring out where you stand sometimes. I say this in good nature because I enjoy our chats. 👍

Just the other day, you linked an article about Denmark, whose population is 86% vaccinated, has began opening up and dropping mandates. Denmark's health officials credited the vaccine. I'd say that is pretty successful. 

We also have the results the CDC collected from public health departments last week. Per the results below, i'd say that's pretty darn successful too. Roughly 10 in 11 people hospitalized with COVID are unvaccinated. Yes, delta brought an increase in breakout cases, but it's still doing its job and its doing its job well. 

image.png.fbea5336a06c1ca424a90ebf27f7a943.png

 

If I see relevant information, I like to bring it here and pass it along. Does not necessarily mean I believe it- or support it.  Some people might find it interesting and or beneficial. I know I have found stuff from far right and far left outlets. 

In general, I favor vaccines for those 30+ and or in at risk groups (more the UK model than the Israel model), believe in transparency and more choices are better, along with keeping mandates to a minimum. It is undeniable vaccines have minimized the severity and deaths. I hope they keep improving. I believe natural antibodies are superior to the vaccine and believe they should count (looks the CDC is finally recognizing this) in the US as much as they do in the rest of the world. 

I like to post things that are perhaps new and or on the fringe as they bring more discussion. Some have proved prophetic- and others plain wrong!

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2 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I don't want to speak for @Reacher but most of the stuff I've read him contribute concludes that there is not a one size fits all solution to this. Vaccines might be the Army but we are going to need support from other areas too. Many people can not be vaccinated due to health issues. Many simply believe that having had COVID already means their immune system did it's job and they don't need a vaccine. Many people worry about long term implications and side effects of the vaccine. Many are yes...anti-vaxxers in general or anti-govt. I may not understand or agree with every side of the arguement but I respect them all as equally important citizens of our society and that we should try to reach people where they are. Instead of forcing them to come to my side is to go meet them where they are at and find a solution that works for them. To do this it may take time and it may take coming up with solutions that work for them that they are comfortable with. Theraputics can be just that. While I think this board has been pretty eager to support all the ways to fight the virus I don't think all of them get equal treatment and equal promotion in the media and with our govt. How many times have they talked about antibody treatments or Ivermectin or any of the positive results even if they aren't a cure. How many times do they come out and talk about ways to improve your immune system. Vitamin D, Zinc, and immune boosting foods and vitamins. About losing weight and lowering risk factors like not smoking or vaping and healthy diet and exercise. I took it serious the first time I heard that overweight people were having a harder time with this. I immediately changed my diet. I've lost almost 35 lbs and dropped 2 pant sizes. Finally dropped below 200lbs and still working at it. It was a wake up call that I needed. I might have carried 6'2 and 235 ok but I knew with things I'd talked to my doctor if I wasn't carrying the extra weight I could really improve my health stats and when I go back to my check up I really think he will take me off my blood pressure medication possibly. I think the point is...we need to keep looking for answers...and we need to help as many people in as many forms as possible. We can start at vaccines...but that doesn't mean the conversation has to end there. I see no harm in providing helpful info that will help people no matter where they fall on this spectrum.

Thanks and well said. Agree completely.

And congrats on the weight loss !

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2 hours ago, Reacher said:

If I see relevant information, I like to bring it here and pass it along. Does not necessarily mean I believe it- or support it.  Some people might find it interesting and or beneficial. I know I have found stuff from far right and far left outlets. 

In general, I favor vaccines for those 30+ and or in at risk groups (more the UK model than the Israel model), believe in transparency and more choices are better, along with keeping mandates to a minimum. It is undeniable vaccines have minimized the severity and deaths. I hope they keep improving. I believe natural antibodies are superior to the vaccine and believe they should count (looks the CDC is finally recognizing this) in the US as much as they do in the rest of the world. 

I like to post things that are perhaps new and or on the fringe as they bring more discussion. Some have proved prophetic- and others plain wrong!

Thank you for what you bring. While I agree some solutions are better than others and some sources and info is better it doesn’t hurt to bring it to the light and let people make their choices.
 

I’ll also say this. Vaccines might be the answer for many at the moment…but we are already seeing some degradation to how effective we thought they would be…especially as more and more variants come along. Today’s solution might be tomorrow’s false hope. To continue making advances on treatments and hopefully future vaccines will be truly important over time. I don’t know where all this will go but I think continuing to help people and save lives is all that matters. In all the ways we can figure out to do. Considering vaccines don’t prevent the illness technically they are just another therapeutic (albeit the most effective one we have at the moment)…so sharing all of them I think is a good thing.

Edited by dgambill
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3 hours ago, Reacher said:

I believe natural antibodies are superior to the vaccine and believe they should count (looks the CDC is finally recognizing this) in the US as much as they do in the rest of the world. 

I think this is the part that drives me the craziest.  If we are "following the science", yes, natural immunity is FAR SUPERIOR to vaccine immunity.  I can't think of an instance where it's not and I've heard plenty of doctors and immunologists repeat this.  One estimate I saw was 27X superior to vaccines.

So why the mandate of vaccines for people who have already had COVID19?  I firmly believe that positive antibody test results should carry at least as much weight as proof of vaccination.

...and I'll add that I am vaccinated and (to my knowledge) have not have had COVID19, so there is no personal agenda against being vaccinated.  It just seems stupid to require that of people who have already had the virus.

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3 hours ago, dgambill said:

Thank you for what you bring. While I agree some solutions are better than others and some sources and info is better it doesn’t hurt to bring it to the light and let people make their choices.
 

I’ll also say this. Vaccines might be the answer for many at the moment…but we are already seeing some degradation to how effective we thought they would be…especially as more and more variants come along. Today’s solution might be tomorrow’s false hope. To continue making advances on treatments and hopefully future vaccines will be truly important over time. I don’t know where all this will go but I think continuing to help people and save lives is all that matters. In all the ways we can figure out to do. Considering vaccines don’t prevent the illness technically they are just another therapeutic (albeit the most effective one we have at the moment)…so sharing all of them I think is a good thing.

Some degradation might be an understatement. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9995149/People-received-Moderas-vaccine-early-TWICE-likely-breakthrough-infection.html

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