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Reacher

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2 minutes ago, Joe_Hoopsier said:

Thank for all the effort in this reply. I think what is going though my head and I will never be able to adequately convey, is; There are thought processes that are society focused and then there are species focused thought. Do we weaken the species with vaccines by making our lives (eventually, way down the road) more and more dependent on them for the "short term" gain? I know this sounds morbid but I'd rather think if it as more of a debate than a culling of people, this is only theory purposed. And No, we have not out ran Mother Nature, we have prolonged the inevitable, again just as a debate not death panels. 

Anyway, that is just a little thought, circling in a small dark crevasse in the back of my mind. Just to be clear, I am not Anti Vaxx.     

I understand all that, but big picture, I just don't think it is realistic for a multitude of reasons. Especially because every so often a new virus is going to come along that will be foreign to our immune systems - even 'conditioned' immune systems. If we are talking about inevitability, that should also be taken into consideration.

That said, at least we have the advancement of medical technology on our side, which will only get better. 

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59 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

I find it odd that people are up in arms about the testing on animals, yet no mention of the HUGE cottage industry of unnecessary animal testing by cosmetics and household goods companies that have been going on for decades. But, sure since we can bash Fauci with it, let’s suddenly get outraged. 

For over 25 years I have boycotted companies that test on animals. It was hard at first, but getting much easier. 

As far as COVID goes, it’s nice to see the cases decreasing. 

And this will make @Reacher happy, the NIH now wants to add a huge number of clinical trials to our long-COVID grant. Everything seems to be on the table, including studying stuff like Vitamin D exposure. Initially this was just supposed to uncover the extent and types of symptoms related to long-COVID, but it keeps expanding. This is now the largest grant that NIH has ever awarded to a single institution - and that’s before they add the clinical trial piece. 

Ignorance is bliss for most people. It takes something they care about passionately to study it and find out all the warts in the system. I'd bet most aren't outraged by the cosmetic industry and other industry treatments of animals because they are unaware it exists. I understand there are going to be instances where we use animals to the benefit of society. I mean we can take it as far as is it ok to slaughter, milk, and use animals to feed/clothe etc. Most people don't want to know how their sausage is made....yet some think it is unethical to hunt a deer while they dine on their $50 steak or they wear said makeup or leather etc etc. While I think it is abhorant what was being done to some of these creatures....I'm equally if not more upset at how they treat their fellow humans. 

Sounds great that they are expanding these studies and putting money into other areas when it comes to treatment/prevention/solutions for this virus. Hopefully it is going to meaningful and reputable places. I'm not saying it isn't but we all know too well how often government funding get's funneled in less then ethical ways to "friends" of the administration/organization.

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Just anecdotal evidence in one case...not trying to make any point here; just sharing an experience...

88-year-old mother-in-law got her booster yesterday.  Side effects were bad headache, high fever (she said 111 😂) vomiting and diarrhea.  Just found this out when my wife stopped by a little bit ago as mom didn't bother to call anyone.  Current temp is 99.4 and she's not dead or brain damaged, so I'm assuming she very much misread her thermometer, but it sounds like it was pretty hard on her.  Looks like the wife will be babysitting today and I'm sure M-I-L is getting chewed out for not calling.  My office is literally 3 minutes from her place and I was working late last night. 🙄

Sometimes, taking care of parents is like having kids all over again.

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58 minutes ago, Joe_Hoopsier said:

Thank for all the effort in this reply. I think what is going though my head and I will never be able to adequately convey, is; There are thought processes that are society focused and then there are species focused thought. Do we weaken the species with vaccines by making our lives (eventually, way down the road) more and more dependent on them for the "short term" gain? I know this sounds morbid but I'd rather think if it as more of a debate than a culling of people, this is only theory purposed. And No, we have not out ran Mother Nature, we have prolonged the inevitable, again just as a debate not death panels. 

Anyway, that is just a little thought, circling in a small dark crevasse in the back of my mind. Just to be clear, I am not Anti Vaxx.     

I kinda think I'm understanding a little more "theoretically" where you are coming from. Do I think that we will always be able to vaccinate ourselves out of trouble in the future or can simply rely on our medical technology and expertise to survive anything that comes our way...no. I think what we have learned are two fold. One that we have incredibly capable and intelligent scientist (and with the addition of incredibly efficient and high level computers) are able to sequence, breakdown and solve many complex problems. That's a great thing for our long term future. That said I think we also learned that we as a country (and a world) are very much underprepared for such catastrophic events. We don't back up our supplies, we don't have redundancies of production and supply (over depend on China), and we don't take serious enough the threat and thus put stock into true preparedness. We also as a country even still don't discuss and preach the importance of one's individual health and taking steps and measures to reduce obesity and limit health conditions to the degree is necessary that would help protect our people. It will be interesting when this is past if we learn anything about preventing/lessoning the next pandemic....albeit in 10-20-100 years. It's impossible to stay a step ahead of mother nature as you say. But I believe if proper steps are taken we can keep up enough to ensure our survival in the future. I will say this....might also be good for us to not "F" with mother nature....she can be hard enough to endure as it is...maybe we shouldn't be messing around too much with altering her viruses or we might make things worse than even she ever could do lol.

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2 hours ago, Lostin76 said:

For over 25 years I have boycotted companies that test on animals. It was hard at first, but getting much easier. 

Let me ak you, since you have been boycotting companies that test on animals for 25 years, what is your opinion on Fauci? He should be fired for this shouldn't he if everything is true?

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1 minute ago, Hoosier51 said:

Let me ak you this, you say you have been boycotting companies that test on animals for 25 years, so what is your opinion on Fauci? He should be fired for this shouldn't he if everything is true?

My opinion on Fauci is that he has somehow survived through multiple administrations (Republican and Democrat) and has overseen some incredible, life-changing health research at NIH. Do I agree with every study or award? No, not even close. 

And no, I don’t think he should be fired. If we let an idiot like Trump screw up everything he touched for four years, then I think we can cut the guy some slack. He’s been wrong some, like most scientists. I’m not coming with the pitchforks or reading every slanted news story about Fauci. If people need a villain, so be it. But he ain’t it when it comes to COVID. 

51 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Ignorance is bliss for most people. It takes something they care about passionately to study it and find out all the warts in the system. I'd bet most aren't outraged by the cosmetic industry and other industry treatments of animals because they are unaware it exists. I understand there are going to be instances where we use animals to the benefit of society. I mean we can take it as far as is it ok to slaughter, milk, and use animals to feed/clothe etc. Most people don't want to know how their sausage is made....yet some think it is unethical to hunt a deer while they dine on their $50 steak or they wear said makeup or leather etc etc. While I think it is abhorant what was being done to some of these creatures....I'm equally if not more upset at how they treat their fellow humans. 

Sounds great that they are expanding these studies and putting money into other areas when it comes to treatment/prevention/solutions for this virus. Hopefully it is going to meaningful and reputable places. I'm not saying it isn't but we all know too well how often government funding get's funneled in less then ethical ways to "friends" of the administration/organization.

Well, my boss is one of the three people deciding where the money goes and she’s definitely one of the good ones. I’ve worked for some crappy people before, but she does not play the “grease the palms of friends” BS games. I can’t think of anyone I trust more than her to oversee this. 

As far as animal stuff goes, I worked for several years at Perdue Farms. I was involved from the hatchery to the slaughterhouse and sent more turkeys to their deaths than most. It’s what made me become a vegetarian. No problems with real hunters who give a crap about the land and the animals, and fully support small farmers and producers. Just sickened by the monster that factory farming has become in the last 2-3 decades. 

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1 minute ago, Lostin76 said:

And no, I don’t think he should be fired. If we let an idiot like Trump screw up everything he touched for four years, then I think we can cut the guy some slack. He’s been wrong some, like most scientists. I’m not coming with the pitchforks or reading every slanted news story about Fauci. If people need a villain, so be it. But he ain’t it when it comes to COVID. 

This is funny and hypocritical. You say you have been boycotting animal testing for 25 years but as soon as it is someone you support you opinion changes. This has nothing to do with Trump, and way to bring politics into the discussion. Your TDS is at full staff there.

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5 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

My opinion on Fauci is that he has somehow survived through multiple administrations (Republican and Democrat) and has overseen some incredible, life-changing health research at NIH. Do I agree with every study or award? No, not even close. 

And no, I don’t think he should be fired. If we let an idiot like Trump screw up everything he touched for four years, then I think we can cut the guy some slack. He’s been wrong some, like most scientists. I’m not coming with the pitchforks or reading every slanted news story about Fauci. If people need a villain, so be it. But he ain’t it when it comes to COVID. 

Well, my boss is one of the three people deciding where the money goes and she’s definitely one of the good ones. I’ve worked for some crappy people before, but she does not play the “grease the palms of friends” BS games. I can’t think of anyone I trust more than her to oversee this. 

As far as animal stuff goes, I worked for several years at Perdue Farms. I was involved from the hatchery to the slaughterhouse and sent more turkeys to their deaths than most. It’s what made me become a vegetarian. No problems with real hunters who give a crap about the land and the animals, and fully support small farmers and producers. Just sickened by the monster that factory farming has become in the last 2-3 decades. 

Seems Trump was held accountable for his mistakes as he was voted out. Not sure Fauci will be...he's been going on for how many years?? I'd just say as the vocal spokesperson of the NIH and the government's spearhead against this virus he has long lost his voice/authority with a good amount of the American people. Problem is who will hold him accountable for his mistakes since he isn't elected yet it appears his leadership effects all our lives.

I truly hope she does.....I can only take you at your word...and hope she unlike so many others is all you say she is. I appreciate all the hard work our scientist and those running these trials are doing in efforts to combat this virus.

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2 hours ago, Hoosier51 said:

This is funny and hypocritical. You say you have been boycotting animal testing for 25 years but as soon as it is someone you support you opinion changes. This has nothing to do with Trump, and way to bring politics into the discussion. Your TDS is at full staff there.

You asked me a loaded question, I answered it honestly. I didn’t even know who Fauci was before COVID, I don’t “support” him, but I’m also not bringing out the pitchforks. I vote with my wallet on animal testing. And my opinion on animal testing has never changed. Hence my comment, see below.  I’m guessing reading comprehension is not your strong point. 

 

2 hours ago, Lostin76 said:

Do I agree with every study or award? No, not even close. 

 

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2 hours ago, dgambill said:

Seems Trump was held accountable for his mistakes as he was voted out. Not sure Fauci will be...he's been going on for how many years?? I'd just say as the vocal spokesperson of the NIH and the government's spearhead against this virus he has long lost his voice/authority with a good amount of the American people. Problem is who will hold him accountable for his mistakes since he isn't elected yet it appears his leadership effects all our lives.

I truly hope she does.....I can only take you at your word...and hope she unlike so many others is all you say she is. I appreciate all the hard work our scientist and those running these trials are doing in efforts to combat this virus.

I get that people are upset about so many things related to this, but scientists are truly not the enemy. This distrust of science is not going to end well for us. Distrusting of politicians, I get that. I’m on board for sure. They are often only out for themselves. But distrust of science is one of the things I’m most concerned about. Sure you get your compromised scientists with their crackpot theories, but that is just not the norm. 

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33 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

You asked me a loaded question, I answered it honestly. I didn’t even know who Fauci was before COVID, I don’t “support” him, but I’m also not bringing out the pitchforks. I vote with my wallet on animal testing. And my opinion on animal testing has never changed. Hence my comment, see below.  I’m guessing reading comprehension is not your strong point. 

 I asked you IF what they are saying about Fauci is true do you think he should be fired.  You said you are willing to cut the guy some guy slack, even though this  is something you have fought against for 25 years. So yeah i guess hypocrisy is your strong point. 

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10 hours ago, tdhoosier said:

I know you've said this in jest (kind of?), but I guess I never understand then need to sugar coat the virus in this fashion because it's very narrow in scope. Most viruses have a high survival rate - it doesn't minimize the actual virus though. From the beginning, many said (even on this board) that there's no way this virus will kill as many as the Spanish Flu (it did), or it'd even come close to killing a million people nationally (we're getting there, and most likely would've surpassed that if it weren't for the fast tracking of the vaccines). 

But again, this is only using deaths as an indicator when the destruction caused in the wake of COVID also includes long-term health effects, economic chaos and the over-whelming of our healthcare system.

I also see this 'sugar coating' used in comparing COVID to more fatal diseases and/or epidemics. But in many cases something like heart disease has been with us for a long time and our healthcare system has adapted to the increase in cases and we've gotten pretty damn good at treating it. It's like keeping a swimming pool at 80% capacity to keep the water level at a certain mark. If you notice the demand is increasing slowly overtime, you expand the pool. BUT if all the sudden you have thousands of people jump into a pool at 80% capacity, it's gong to overflow and overwhelm the lifeguards. 

The point being, there are very real short and longterm consequences to the virus, even if 'a lot of people recover from it' or even if 'poverty kills more people worldwide'. These consequences domino down and effect us (even the healthy) in a multitude of ways. Heck, we complain about these consequences everyday on this thread because they are effecting our lives to various degrees.

In addition to sickness and death, a sudden pandemic is a shock to the systems we have in place.

But we JUST DID outrun mother nature and many vaccines have changed the supposed 'inevitable'. Polio? Measles? If you're insinuating to have the virus kill off the unhealthy in an effort to strengthen our overall immunity, then fine, but then be prepared to deal with dominos that fall as a result because it won't just be deaths and the aftermath will much longer to recover from (as a a society). For example, if you think these supply chain issues are bad now, how do you think they'd be if we let COVID just run unhindered and rampant across the globe?

By that rationale we shouldn't use modern engineering to prevent earthquakes from crumbling buildings. Sure, we aren't going to prevent mother nature from having earthquakes, but we can minimize the damage.

I'm not insinuating that people shouldn't get healthier and strengthen their immune systems, but this is not a strategy by any means, nor is it realistic. We have one lifetime on this Earth (perhaps a few more if you're Buddhist), and call me selfish, but I'd rather not spend it "cleansing the species" and living through the devastating aftermath that'd result from such a strategy. I award you zero points for that insinuation. 😆  (Though, I still appreciate you Joe!)

 

To be fair, I did say to expect 1.5%+ or so of people to die from this virus. Multiply .002x 330,000,000 and see what you get. Covid is no way compared to Spanish flu. 

What you are failing to understand is the population of the US during the Spanish flu was about 130 million, so 6.5% of that population died from Spanish flu. 

Right now we are about 330 million of US population, so about 1.9% has died which is comparable to Hong Kong flu and Asian flu in the 50's and 60's. 

Raw numbers are meaningless. Do some statistics. 

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10 hours ago, mrflynn03 said:

To be fair, I did say to expect 1.5%+ or so of people to die from this virus. Multiply .002x 330,000,000 and see what you get. Covid is no way compared to Spanish flu. 

What you are failing to understand is the population of the US during the Spanish flu was about 130 million, so 6.5% of that population died from Spanish flu. 

Right now we are about 330 million of US population, so about 1.9% has died which is comparable to Hong Kong flu and Asian flu in the 50's and 60's. 

Raw numbers are meaningless. Do some statistics. 

I’m not misunderstanding anything and I know how percentages work, thank you. I’m just relaying what I heard. If those people want to move the goal posts and switch to percentages, that’s on them. The point being that many thought COVID wasn’t a big deal, or was fake, or was a political ploy, or was going to go away in the summer of 2020 despite just about every virologist warning of a fall spike. And when many were being proven wrong, some began challenging the reported numbers without any evidence. In the end, even ‘small’ percentages caused huge disruptions. Yet, some still seem to sugar coat the virus, but this time the agenda is to undermine vaccines. 

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15 hours ago, Lostin76 said:

I get that people are upset about so many things related to this, but scientists are truly not the enemy. This distrust of science is not going to end well for us. Distrusting of politicians, I get that. I’m on board for sure. They are often only out for themselves. But distrust of science is one of the things I’m most concerned about. Sure you get your compromised scientists with their crackpot theories, but that is just not the norm. 

I don't distrust science...I'm in favor of a robust discussion and debate of ideas and proving where the truth lies. I'm more concerned about those heading up the scientific community...ones that have one foot in the science sphere and the other interacting with Washington in the political one. We've seen many top scientist disagree even leave their post because of the decisions by those at the top. Having to lobby for funding, owing favors, rubbing elbows with the good ol boys in Congress who sit at the same table with Senators, Representatives, and lobbyist (pharmaceuticals). Heck I'm also concerned about the ones that think China is our friend and don't mind working with them if it helps their funding or their personal finances. Plenty of people like that....and plenty of people with 20-30 years of Washington stench on them. I'm sure most start out with great intentions and some still try to maintain it...but we've seen all too well the "win at any cost mentality" and it doesn't just fall on politicians...it happens elsewhere too. Where people will fudge the numbers, muddy the data, or even "fake" the science in attempt to support their theories and hypothesis which they are SURE is for the good of society.

I mean scientist are always right...trust the science...until we learn that it's wrong. Science has gotten it wrong more times then right. How many expert scientist...geniuses have had their theories disproven over the years. If everyone just took them at their word then we would hold to some strange ideas of how this world works and would not be where we are today technology, medically, and scientifically. Sure there are some universal truths...but we've seen the science change and the line between science and those with agendas has more or less been destroyed. Forgive me if I don't just "trust the science". Good scientist question things...so why as people should we not do the same? Maybe I just have lived long enough to have I would say a "healthy" distrust of everyone. Just because the have the title of Doctor or Scientist doesn't mean that don't have motives and are above reproach. Trust the experts is laughable...who are the experts...and trust which ones. Got plenty with just as fancy degrees and experience to counter the ones in authority. The ones in authority have been chosen mostly by our corrupt government. The experts are bad when they are placed there by the wrong administration...but good when my administration says so. I don't trust any of them as far as I can throw them. It takes me quite a bit of thought and research before I decide to take someone as credible...and even then I might change my mind if they say or believe something else that doesn't add up.

I also might trust the science but that also doesn't mean I trust the scientist trying to make policy as well. It's one thing to trust the information from someone but that doesn't mean that person is someone I'm going to agree with in how they think the response to said information should be. While qualified to figure out what is happening or sequence something doesn't mean their ideas on how the country should be run or handled based on that information is any more qualified than someone that understands the full complexity of governing and running businesses. I interact with many "experts" in various aspects of my life but that doesn't mean they are all qualified to run my life. I think the issue many have is not necessarily that the science isn't right or mostly right dealing with covid (although obviously mistakes have been made and our lives have been affected) it's simply the manner in which those governing us have made their decisions and mandates on us, along with the fact that they themselves don't follow the science, and on top of it all many are just hypocrits as they make rules for thee but not me. So I think we appreciate the science....but we realize that science isn't always set in stone...and many times is evolving. It doesn't help that each side runs out a list of 50/100/200 scientist sign on to a theory or idea....but wait...there are literally tens of thousands of scientist..and each side has a few on their side well that doesn't really mean a whole lot...that doesn't make them any more creditable then the rest or the other side of an arguement. Now days you have these organizations and groups that endorse stuff....but it isn't like it's voted on by a majority of the individuals that make up that organization....it's those at the top who endorse something or someone because it's financially beneficial to them. So me...as an individual, I just can't take these people at their word...I have to use whatever information and knowledge I can to come to my own conclusion...while weighing what they are saying. It's what I do with everything else in my life and it's what I would do with "science". Doesn't mean I think I'm smarter than them or more knowledgable...but certainly I might disagree with their conclusions or recommendations when I have a problem with them or enough evidence to suggest an issue. I'd have a lot more trust and I think the american people would as well if we had more transparency with those leading the cause and those experts would simply give their findings and results of the studies and what we are learning as more informational instead of them also trying to direct policy and directives as well. Here is the info...do with it what you will.

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If you are fat, old, or have underlying conditions, get the shot. Common sense. 

If you are too scared to go outside, then stay home.

Let us live our lives without all the panic.

2 weeks to slow the spread has turned into "get 2 shots plus a booster or you will lose your job". Get lost. I got the shot so people would leave me alone, and I need it to travel overseas. Everyone should be able to choose for themselves.

This country is so toast if this is the road we are going down. Mandate my nuts. 

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1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

I’m not misunderstanding anything and I know how percentages work, thank you. I’m just relaying what I heard. If those people want to move the goal posts and switch to percentages, that’s on them. The point being that many thought COVID wasn’t a big deal, or was fake, or was a political ploy, or was going to go away in the summer of 2020 despite just about every virologist warning of a fall spike. And when many were being proven wrong, some began challenging the reported numbers without any evidence. In the end, even ‘small’ percentages caused huge disruptions. Yet, some still seem to sugar coat the virus, but this time the agenda is to undermine vaccines. 

Including Fauci.

 


You don’t think it’s because we’ve had conflicting messages from the very beginning? Not taking sides on this thing with vaccines. For them…just not mandated. Don’t think that is a weird position nor undermining them. The numbers have been all over the place because the standards in which the numbers were being reported were very much being cherry picked or used in a way to support a narrative when said stat/number was not a valid way to measure. Numbers are just numbers…how you use them I think caused great disagreement. Also garbage in garbage out if the numbers being used are not accurate representation or being manipulated for agendas. (Such as reporting deaths from Covid when person died while having Covid but not from the disease itself or deaths from vaccines when there is no link between vaccine and the death) I think we’ve all been wrong a time or two or three on this virus etc…it wouldn’t hurt for those leading the charge to admit theirs and ask for forgiveness and then make a pivot when they discover theirs.

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2 hours ago, Reacher said:

Some good info. Very interested in how the peer reviews fair in these findings. We learn more and more every day.

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1 hour ago, dgambill said:

Including Fauci.

 


You don’t think it’s because we’ve had conflicting messages from the very beginning? Not taking sides on this thing with vaccines. For them…just not mandated. Don’t think that is a weird position nor undermining them. The numbers have been all over the place because the standards in which the numbers were being reported were very much being cherry picked or used in a way to support a narrative when said stat/number was not a valid way to measure. Numbers are just numbers…how you use them I think caused great disagreement. Also garbage in garbage out if the numbers being used are not accurate representation or being manipulated for agendas. (Such as reporting deaths from Covid when person died while having Covid but not from the disease itself or deaths from vaccines when there is no link between vaccine and the death) I think we’ve all been wrong a time or two or three on this virus etc…it wouldn’t hurt for those leading the charge to admit theirs and ask for forgiveness and then make a pivot when they discover theirs.

Did you watch that clip? 

Question: Many people are worried about Coronavirus, should they be? 

Answer: I don't think people should be frightened. The risk right now, today, currently, is relatively low for the American public, but that could change because what's going on outside of the US, particularly in China and other countries in which there are travel related cases - that this could evolve into a global pandemic. And that would have significant implications for us. So, although we don't want people to be worried now I think we need to realize that this could change.........

and then he goes into masks where he specifically says they're "meant more for people who are infected, to prevent them from infecting someone else". This was the rational behind masks guidelines because a lot of the spread was happening from asymptomatic people (a pesky fact that was not yet known at the time of this interview). Nobody ever said masks were bullet proof (and they don't now); they were and still are a mitigating factor. Any degree of mitigation is helpful when preventing an exponential spread of a virus. 

Recommendations can change when information evolves. I'm more concerned about leaders ignoring the evolved information to push a knowingly false message that's politically beneficial for them. i.e. "COVID will go away in the summer." .....and repeat this false message on a loop when virtually all legitimate scientists or doctors don't agree with them. This virus was purposely undermined from the very beginning - as a result it contributed to the divide we are seeing now. 

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19 hours ago, Hoosier51 said:

 I asked you IF what they are saying about Fauci is true do you think he should be fired.  You said you are willing to cut the guy some guy slack, even though this  is something you have fought against for 25 years. So yeah i guess hypocrisy is your strong point. 

Again, since you are slow - I vote with my wallet on animal testing. I do not purchase goods or services from Dr. Fauci or the NIH. And I cannot control whether or not he is fired either. 

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