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Reacher

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14 hours ago, cthomas said:

This is a multifaceted problem. The people who die, whether from the virus or virus and other issues, are the front page news and the lead story on the evening news. But the collateral damage is less obvious. Just as devastating to those who experience it, but never going to be talked about to a significant extent. We want a linear solution and we have decided that the lockdown and the vaccine is it. We ignore everything else. The path we have chosen is the most divisive of all possible options. Promote the vaccine and the risk/benefit analysis and let people take responsibility for their own lives. The damage we have done to people on the margins of society is unconscionable. It doesn't have to be this way. I'm in the high risk age group, had covid, and recovered fairly quickly without lingering effects. Not everyone will have the same outcome, I understand that. I tell whoever asks that they should make the best, most comfortable decision for themselves. However, to lose sight of the suffering of the people who lost jobs, housing, and any chance to come out of this whole is just plain wrong.

I work in public health, so will pretty much always come down on the public health side, which has admittedly pushed vaccination as the main thrust, and I haven’t been opposed to lockdowns in some limited capacity. But, as you said the damage done to those on the margins of society, and even to some who were doing okay before this is growing and should not be ignored.

There is a pandemic of loss resulting from our failed efforts to control the pandemic. I hope that we don’t continue to gloss over that. When we first started entertaining lockdowns ands closures, it was clear that our government needed to step up to protect those impacted by these policies. But, we have largely failed under both administrations compared to our European counterparts. 

You can’t shut people down and then say you are all on your own. But this takes agreement by all of us to recognize that many people need help right now. And it takes people willing to give when they might not benefit. 

For instance, we don’t have children and never will. But, if our government wants to give people money to support childcare or childcare-related expenses, then yes, please do that. It’s hard (and expensive) to raise kids. My wife and I are DINKS (double income no kids). We each make six figures and have our own goals, issues. But I damn sure know how important it is to support children and families with them. So yes, increase my taxes to give more money to working families with kids. We will all hopefully benefit from that years down the line. 

Unfortunately, I see a lot of “me, me, me” during this pandemic. As in my freedoms outweigh your needs. That’s a recipe for failure, but I’m not sure there is a way around that in our current political climate. 

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2 hours ago, Lostin76 said:

I work in public health, so will pretty much always come down on the public health side, which has admittedly pushed vaccination as the main thrust, and I haven’t been opposed to lockdowns in some limited capacity. But, as you said the damage done to those on the margins of society, and even to some who were doing okay before this is growing and should not be ignored.

There is a pandemic of loss resulting from our failed efforts to control the pandemic. I hope that we don’t continue to gloss over that. When we first started entertaining lockdowns ands closures, it was clear that our government needed to step up to protect those impacted by these policies. But, we have largely failed under both administrations compared to our European counterparts. 

You can’t shut people down and then say you are all on your own. But this takes agreement by all of us to recognize that many people need help right now. And it takes people willing to give when they might not benefit. 

For instance, we don’t have children and never will. But, if our government wants to give people money to support childcare or childcare-related expenses, then yes, please do that. It’s hard (and expensive) to raise kids. My wife and I are DINKS (double income no kids). We each make six figures and have our own goals, issues. But I damn sure know how important it is to support children and families with them. So yes, increase my taxes to give more money to working families with kids. We will all hopefully benefit from that years down the line. 

Unfortunately, I see a lot of “me, me, me” during this pandemic. As in my freedoms outweigh your needs. That’s a recipe for failure, but I’m not sure there is a way around that in our current political climate. 

My wife and I are retired and have four adult children, one with a severe mental illness, and nine grandchildren. About half of them have been seriously impacted by our response to this virus. We have been giving both financial and child care aid to our family. The response from the government, both federal and local, has been abysmal. Too much bureaucracy, too much time between need and aid, and too little urgency to resolve the problems once identified. For all the talk and posturing, neither political party has done much to help. I see the problems firsthand and, as well meaning as people of means often are, most don't truly understand what being without food or shelter is like. So many have lost hope and given up. This is not only sad on a human level, it is also dangerous.

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1 hour ago, cthomas said:

My wife and I are retired and have four adult children, one with a severe mental illness, and nine grandchildren. About half of them have been seriously impacted by our response to this virus. We have been giving both financial and child care aid to our family. The response from the government, both federal and local, has been abysmal. Too much bureaucracy, too much time between need and aid, and too little urgency to resolve the problems once identified. For all the talk and posturing, neither political party has done much to help. I see the problems firsthand and, as well meaning as people of means often are, most don't truly understand what being without food or shelter is like. So many have lost hope and given up. This is not only sad on a human level, it is also dangerous.

100% in agreement with you there. Our government has failed so many people who were upended through no fault of their own. But what else is new? 

Sorry for the impact to your family. It’s going to take so many years, if not decades, to recover from this. 

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1 hour ago, hoosier_exotics said:

https://twitter.com/SKMorefield/status/1462514295506456582?t=8DhQlCzYP2Q-2RLi1QBXIQ&s=19

 

I must have missed the request for my measles booster...  every 6 months or every 2 months for J&J.   No thanks

The guy is an idiot and this will never end unless people get tired of it and just ignore him and .gov.

Africa is doing well, maybe dosing a cheap anti maliral drug for people over ther has something to do with it?

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On 11/20/2021 at 7:53 PM, HoosierFaithful said:

Speaking from the lens of government response - The hard part is that these problems aren’t easy to solve even when everyone agrees. America is a massive and diverse (speaking not ethnically but geographically, climate, etc etc) country.  Just a miserable situation to be in. 

Hard to get into anything govt response wise and not be political or start an arguement so I think I'll just say this...and not look to dispute my opinion really.  I think in general if the govt would have just stayed out of this mostly altogether and treated this as more of a natural disaster...kinda like a FEMA response...get assets/ppe/money to areas that need it, removed red tape in making the vaccines, theraputics, and emergency lending available, and simply stayed out of locking down everything outside of nursing homes/hospitals I'm not sure this would have ended up any worse when it comes to loss of life and lifestyles. They could have saved millions of jobs and uncounted mental health issues just protecting the needy/at-risk and letting the rest get to work. There were many states that did just that and in the end...those that locked down etc didn't end up saving any more lives than those that stayed open....but the economies of each sure faired quite differently. This idea that govt is going to save us and bail us out is a dangerous mindset. I think from the start this mostly got mishandled and continues to get mishandled in the worst possible way. Not a big fan of anyone in Washington DC...on either side of the aisle or in any department....from the Fed to the NIH to CDC to FBI to Congress to White House. That brood of vipers aren't here to help the avg American for the most part.

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22 hours ago, NotIThatLives said:

Less TV's infecting the mind

I'm sure there is good science behind why this is...but since there is no money to be made in Africa I doubt we will ever truly know. Could be the continent along with southeast Asia is one of the least obese....could be there is less travel and less spread...could be something genetic...or could even be because Africa is one of the leading continents in the world in availability and use of drugs like Ivermectin.....I doubt we will ever know.

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Regarding Africa, let's assume for a moment that the reporting is as detailed and as thorough as it is in Europe and North America.

Under that assumption, which I think any of us being open-minded, would agree is a longshot, let's try to determine WHY Africa is doing better and not just use it to bash the vaccines.

I'll start.  It's been known for many years that Africa has a much lower rate of food allergies.  Is this because peanut butter, shellfish, and strawberries are in short supply, or is it because their body has more natural immunity? 

I'll straddle the fence and say it is a little of both.  So, what could be causing 'better natural immunity' against things like food allergies and Covid?  Is it one thing or a combination of factors that would be difficult to replicate outside of the African continent? 

Maybe its lower levels of pollution.  Could be that its higher levels of Viamin D because of their time outside in the sun.  Maybe it's a airborne agent found only in elephant dung.  Bottom line is we dont know.

But, let's not lose sight of the fact that, despite having fewer food allergies and possibly a lower Covid risk, people in Africa still have a much lower life expectancy compared to Europe and the U.S.  

We dont yet know what advantage, if any, African people have against Covid.  But, we do have a lot of data to support why Europeans and Americans live longer than Africans.  And, much of that reason is because of the quality and availability of health care, which includes a decent sized list of vaccines for previously serious diseases.

Regardless of what is happening in Africa, the data shows that vaccines work elsewhere.  I personally will choose the lifestyle I have here, and if vaccination is the best way to keep me safe, I will go that route versus living with the challenges those on the African continent face.

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41 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Regarding Africa, let's assume for a moment that the reporting is as detailed and as thorough as it is in Europe and North America.

Under that assumption, which I think any of us being open-minded, would agree is a longshot, let's try to determine WHY Africa is doing better and not just use it to bash the vaccines.

I'll start.  It's been known for many years that Africa has a much lower rate of food allergies.  Is this because peanut butter, shellfish, and strawberries are in short supply, or is it because their body has more natural immunity? 

I'll straddle the fence and say it is a little of both.  So, what could be causing 'better natural immunity' against things like food allergies and Covid?  Is it one thing or a combination of factors that would be difficult to replicate outside of the African continent? 

Maybe its lower levels of pollution.  Could be that its higher levels of Viamin D because of their time outside in the sun.  Maybe it's a airborne agent found only in elephant dung.  Bottom line is we dont know.

But, let's not lose sight of the fact that, despite having fewer food allergies and possibly a lower Covid risk, people in Africa still have a much lower life expectancy compared to Europe and the U.S.  

We dont yet know what advantage, if any, African people have against Covid.  But, we do have a lot of data to support why Europeans and Americans live longer than Africans.  And, much of that reason is because of the quality and availability of health care, which includes a decent sized list of vaccines for previously serious diseases.

Regardless of what is happening in Africa, the data shows that vaccines work elsewhere.  I personally will choose the lifestyle I have here, and if vaccination is the best way to keep me safe, I will go that route versus living with the challenges those on the African continent face.

The US and Europe also aren't embroiled in constant civil war as well.....well if you don't count Chicago...no honestly all very good points...and like you said, doubt anyone will put the money into studying any or all of those things because the rest of the world basically see's Africa as not much more then something they stepped in.

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31 minutes ago, RoadToZion said:

Probably because they aren't fat pigs like a large percentage of the US.

Look whos dying in the States. Old and/or fat. How about instead of having a vaccine mandate, have a weight loss mandate. That'll solve a lot of issues. 

 

Well....when people are all standing in bread lines once the socialists are done with the country....I could see them rationing by weight lol.

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1 hour ago, RoadToZion said:

Probably because they aren't fat pigs like a large percentage of the US.

Look whos dying in the States. Old and/or fat. How about instead of having a vaccine mandate, have a weight loss mandate. That'll solve a lot of issues. 

 

I'll pivot you back to the life expectancy point.  Let's concede the argument that Africans are not as obese as Europeans and Americans.  So, why is it that they still have a much lower life expectancy?  

Bottom line is there is not a single factor that we can point as to why Africans fare better than others against Covid. Hence, we cant say the vaccines dont work or are not necessary.

Chances are a few of us posting in this thread can do so because our parents saw to it to ensure we were vaccinated against smallpox, polio, measles, etc.  That's indisputable.

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1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Regarding Africa, let's assume for a moment that the reporting is as detailed and as thorough as it is in Europe and North America.

Under that assumption, which I think any of us being open-minded, would agree is a longshot, let's try to determine WHY Africa is doing better and not just use it to bash the vaccines.

I'll start.  It's been known for many years that Africa has a much lower rate of food allergies.  Is this because peanut butter, shellfish, and strawberries are in short supply, or is it because their body has more natural immunity? 

I'll straddle the fence and say it is a little of both.  So, what could be causing 'better natural immunity' against things like food allergies and Covid?  Is it one thing or a combination of factors that would be difficult to replicate outside of the African continent? 

Maybe its lower levels of pollution.  Could be that its higher levels of Viamin D because of their time outside in the sun.  Maybe it's a airborne agent found only in elephant dung.  Bottom line is we dont know.

But, let's not lose sight of the fact that, despite having fewer food allergies and possibly a lower Covid risk, people in Africa still have a much lower life expectancy compared to Europe and the U.S.  

We dont yet know what advantage, if any, African people have against Covid.  But, we do have a lot of data to support why Europeans and Americans live longer than Africans.  And, much of that reason is because of the quality and availability of health care, which includes a decent sized list of vaccines for previously serious diseases.

Regardless of what is happening in Africa, the data shows that vaccines work elsewhere.  I personally will choose the lifestyle I have here, and if vaccination is the best way to keep me safe, I will go that route versus living with the challenges those on the African continent face.

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14 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I'll pivot you back to the life expectancy point.  Let's concede the argument that Africans are not as obese as Europeans and Americans.  So, why is it that they still have a much lower life expectancy?  

Bottom line is there is not a single factor that we can point as to why Africans fare better than others against Covid. Hence, we cant say the vaccines dont work or are not necessary.

Chances a few of us posting in this thread can do so because our parents saw to it to ensure we were vaccinated against smallpox, polio, measles, etc.  That's indisputable.

Africa is a pretty dangerous place to live...  venomous, lions, weather, crazy lethal diseases, war.  

Being in the snake business,   I have close friends all over the world, multiple in Africa.  My buddy Warwick is a professor at a university.  He has had his shot, but he said the vast majority have not and covid hasn't been much of an issue at all. They pop malaria pills like candy,  im not sure if that has anything to do with it or not.

I am thankful people have the option to get the shot if they want it. I think the pills will be far more affective in getting things back to semi normal. 

 

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12 minutes ago, RoadToZion said:

 

So the video is fake ? 

Maybe they did one of those deepfake videos I hear are all the rage lol. Or maybe the guy signing in the lower right is telling people off so it's labeled fake....can't be sure. That said propoganda doesn't mean fake...just means it someone thinks it's purposely misleading or being used to promote a certain political cause....I mean CNN/FOX can both be viewed in that lens depending on what side of the divide you might sit...and those that are in the gulf between....would say they both fall into that category. Doesn't make all the news they report fake or wrong...just that they are showing it through their own particular lens.

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