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cybergates

cybergates

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I hate GOAT talk. Impossible to me. First off what is "Greatest"? It can be different for everyone.

Individual championships in a team game are overvalued in support of a GOAT choice (MJ 6 vs. LeBron 3, etc.) and overlooked when it doesn't fit the narrative (Robert Horry 7 vs. MJ 6). We don't and can never know alternate history, but "luck" plays into championships so much that giving credit to one person (player/coach) for a championship is ridiculous IMO. One can come up with a million "what ifs". If Jordan was drafted by an inept organization that never surrounded him with talent, would he have (a) 0 championships or (b) would have left/asked for a trade and would have the different narrative similar to LeBron that he had to "team-up" to get rings? If Tom Brady was drafted by another team, would he have lasted in 5 years in the NFL? If the Colts drafted Ryan Leaf, would he and Peyton both been successful? 

Stats are skewed by era, in the 61-62 season when Chamberlain averaged 50.4pts/25.7 rebs, there were only 9 teams that shot 42.6% FG on 107.7 shots/game averaging 118.8 pts. in the 97-98 season from the doc, there were 29 teams that shot 45% FG on 79.7 shots/game averaging 95.6 pts.

All-time means past, present and future, so to say someone is GOAT means no one will ever be better which is unlikely.

Best I've ever seen is a much more coherent and IMO fun discussion instead of being battered by the media/others that a certain player is the GOAT. Jordan had the best NBA career I've seen, and Christian Laettner had the best NCAA career. I don't like either of them. As for favorites, as a kid in the 80s, I was a Magic fan (a contrarian so I went against Bird b/c everyone else loved him and I liked Magic's showtime, fast-break style better). I became a Jordan fan b/c he was amazing and I watched "Come Fly With Me" probably a hundred times. I was completely torn who to root for in the 1991 Finals b/c of it. I decided I would just be happy whoever won. As soon as the Bulls won, I saw Jordan for who he really was (to me at least at 14 years old), and was never a fan again. My favorite NCAA player is Calbert Cheaney preceded by Steve Alford. 

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Hoosierhoopster

Hoosierhoopster

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1 hour ago, cybergates said:

I hate GOAT talk. Impossible to me. First off what is "Greatest"? It can be different for everyone.

Individual championships in a team game are overvalued in support of a GOAT choice (MJ 6 vs. LeBron 3, etc.) and overlooked when it doesn't fit the narrative (Robert Horry 7 vs. MJ 6). We don't and can never know alternate history, but "luck" plays into championships so much that giving credit to one person (player/coach) for a championship is ridiculous IMO. One can come up with a million "what ifs". If Jordan was drafted by an inept organization that never surrounded him with talent, would he have (a) 0 championships or (b) would have left/asked for a trade and would have the different narrative similar to LeBron that he had to "team-up" to get rings? If Tom Brady was drafted by another team, would he have lasted in 5 years in the NFL? If the Colts drafted Ryan Leaf, would he and Peyton both been successful? 

Stats are skewed by era, in the 61-62 season when Chamberlain averaged 50.4pts/25.7 rebs, there were only 9 teams that shot 42.6% FG on 107.7 shots/game averaging 118.8 pts. in the 97-98 season from the doc, there were 29 teams that shot 45% FG on 79.7 shots/game averaging 95.6 pts.

All-time means past, present and future, so to say someone is GOAT means no one will ever be better which is unlikely.

Best I've ever seen is a much more coherent and IMO fun discussion instead of being battered by the media/others that a certain player is the GOAT. Jordan had the best NBA career I've seen, and Christian Laettner had the best NCAA career. I don't like either of them. As for favorites, as a kid in the 80s, I was a Magic fan (a contrarian so I went against Bird b/c everyone else loved him and I liked Magic's showtime, fast-break style better). I became a Jordan fan b/c he was amazing and I watched "Come Fly With Me" probably a hundred times. I was completely torn who to root for in the 1991 Finals b/c of it. I decided I would just be happy whoever won. As soon as the Bulls won, I saw Jordan for who he really was (to me at least at 14 years old), and was never a fan again. My favorite NCAA player is Calbert Cheaney preceded by Steve Alford. 

I see things fairly similarly. It's also impossible to cross-compare players who played in different generations / eras generally, under often vastly different NBA rules and obviously, as you point out, under different circumstances, including Wilt's significantly different NBA.

I wouldn't go so far as to limit the discussion to best I've seen but I have a similar reaction to the outcry many have against considering a guy like LBJ on the same or better standing as MJ, or for that matter, Magic as better  than MJ, or Bird, etc. Comparing Bird and Magic is a lot easier, they went head to head for years. MJ and LBJ are extremely different players and play different positions generally -- LBJ is a lot more similar to Magic -- another reason the insistence that MJ is better just doesn't fly with me. Both are all-time greats. Both are, in my opinion, legitimately in the discussion of greatest overall players or, better, greatest of their respective eras.

For me I think I'd go with Magic, even though I wasn't really a big fan of his, what he did at both the college and NBA level -- and as a rookie coming in after winning an NCAA championship and following it up right away with the Lakers, to me is un-paralleled. MJ lost at UNC, and it took him years to get past IT etc. LBJ came into the NBA without an outside shot, but an early entrant out of high school, and then carried those pathetically bad Cavs all the way to the finals, then later his multiple repeat Finals runs. MJ has my never-ending ire for denying Regg and the P's at least one championship, lol. Couldn't stand him, but of course he's in that discussion, however you want to frame it -- but he's not and shouldn't be considered the clear GOAT, that's just ridiculous to me.

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IU Scott

IU Scott

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4 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I see things fairly similarly. It's also impossible to cross-compare players who played in different generations / eras generally, under often vastly different NBA rules and obviously, as you point out, under different circumstances, including Wilt's significantly different NBA.

I wouldn't go so far as to limit the discussion to best I've seen but I have a similar reaction to the outcry many have against considering a guy like LBJ on the same or better standing as MJ, or for that matter, Magic as better  than MJ, or Bird, etc. Comparing Bird and Magic is a lot easier, they went head to head for years. MJ and LBJ are extremely different players and play different positions generally -- LBJ is a lot more similar to Magic -- another reason the insistence that MJ is better just doesn't fly with me. Both are all-time greats. Both are, in my opinion, legitimately in the discussion of greatest overall players or, better, greatest of their respective eras.

For me I think I'd go with Magic, even though I wasn't really a big fan of his, what he did at both the college and NBA level -- and as a rookie coming in after winning an NCAA championship and following it up right away with the Lakers, to me is un-paralleled. MJ lost at UNC, and it took him years to get past IT etc. LBJ came into the NBA without an outside shot, but an early entrant out of high school, and then carried those pathetically bad Cavs all the way to the finals, then later his multiple repeat Finals runs. MJ has my never-ending ire for denying Regg and the P's at least one championship, lol. Couldn't stand him, but of course he's in that discussion, however you want to frame it -- but he's not and shouldn't be considered the clear GOAT, that's just ridiculous to me.

Growing up I was a Pacers fan first but was a fan of Magic so I liked the Lakers. Even in college I wanted MSU to win because I like Magic and did not like Bird.  This is the only time I liked a team just because of a player and have not done this since.

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NCHoosier32

NCHoosier32

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15 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Growing up I was a Pacers fan first but was a fan of Magic so I liked the Lakers. Even in college I wanted MSU to win because I like Magic and did not like Bird.  This is the only time I liked a team just because of a player and have not done this since.

i thought i was the only kid growing up in Indiana who was a Magic fan and not Bird!  Scott - we agree on something!  

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Billingsley99

Billingsley99

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4 hours ago, NCHoosier32 said:

i thought i was the only kid growing up in Indiana who was a Magic fan and not Bird!  Scott - we agree on something!  

I hated BIRD and proudly wore my purple and gold converse. When Michael won his 1st title I was not upset because I thought Magic would get 4 or 5 more titles so let MJ have 1

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IUFLA

IUFLA

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On 5/26/2020 at 2:01 PM, IU Scott said:

Growing up I was a Pacers fan first but was a fan of Magic so I liked the Lakers. Even in college I wanted MSU to win because I like Magic and did not like Bird.  This is the only time I liked a team just because of a player and have not done this since.

 

12 hours ago, NCHoosier32 said:

i thought i was the only kid growing up in Indiana who was a Magic fan and not Bird!  Scott - we agree on something!  

 

9 hours ago, Billingsley99 said:

I hated BIRD and proudly wore my purple and gold converse. When Michael won his 1st title I was not upset because I thought Magic would get 4 or 5 more titles so let MJ have 1

Just a question...

What in the world would make you dislike Larry Bird?

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IU Scott

IU Scott

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15 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

 

 

Just a question...

What in the world would make you dislike Larry Bird?

I hated the Celtics and I like Magic Johnson and had no reason to like Bird.  Just because he was from Indiana does not mean I have to like that player.  There are plenty of Indiana kids that played at Purdue that I can't stand.

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IUFLA

IUFLA

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3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I hated the Celtics and I like Magic Johnson and had no reason to like Bird.  Just because he was from Indiana doe snot mean I have to like that player.  There are plenty of Indiana kids that played at Purdue that I can't stand.

I'd root for any Indiana kid up until the time he chose Purdue...

But Indiana State? That was one of the great stories in NCAA basketball history...David vs Goliath...I thought everyone would like that... especially if it was an Indiana college team (except Purdue...or Notre Dame) led by the greatest native Indiana basketball player of all time...

I think it's still the highest rated NCAA tournament game in history...

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IU Scott

IU Scott

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1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

I'd root for any Indiana kid up until the time he chose Purdue...

But Indiana State? That was one of the great stories in NCAA basketball history...David vs Goliath...I thought everyone would like that... especially if it was an Indiana college team (except Purdue...or Notre Dame) led by the greatest native Indiana basketball player of all time...

I think it's still the highest rated NCAA tournament game in history...

I just like Magic and with Bird leaving IU I did not care for him and I think Oscar Robertson has a say about who the best native Hoosier was.

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IUFLA

IUFLA

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Just now, IU Scott said:

Well he played high school in Indiana which is what I would go by.

Hence the word "native."

na·tive
/ˈnādiv/
See definitions in:
All
Biology
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noun
  1. a person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth, whether subsequently resident there or not.
    "a native of Montreal"
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IUFLA

IUFLA

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55 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

He was the opposite of Magic. Once the both retired I could appreciate Bird.  IMO Bird was the bad guy and Magic the super hero

Once they got to the NBA, I still rooted for Bird (especially in 86 when Artesian Jerry Sichting was a reserve guard for Boston) but being a Pacer fan, it wasn't do or die...

But 1979 was really special for Indiana State...Bob Heaton's 2 shots that preserved the perfect (until the MSU game) season...his half court heave to send the New Mexico State game into OT where the Sycamores won, and his 10 foot left handed shot to beat Arkansas (led by Sidney Moncreif) and go to the final 4...

Almost every ISU game was on local TV that year. It was really something to watch...

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NCHoosier32

NCHoosier32

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11 hours ago, IUFLA said:

 

 

Just a question...

What in the world would make you dislike Larry Bird?

it's weird.  that's a great question.  i guess as a kid i thought Magic was so cool and so much fun to watch.  so i became a huge Lakers fan and just hated the Celtics and Bird for that reason.  i obviously didn't appreciate him back then.  when i watch shows or highlights of Bird now, i am blown away.  

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Seeking6

Seeking6

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12 hours ago, IUFLA said:

 

 

Just a question...

What in the world would make you dislike Larry Bird?

For me it team was style of play. Plus my Dad was a Celtics fan which only helped me be more of a Lakers fan. Only later on in his career did I learn to appreciate how good/great he was but during the 80's I was team Lakers.

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Billingsley99

Billingsley99

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13 hours ago, IUFLA said:

 

 

Just a question...

What in the world would make you dislike Larry Bird?

All of the above answers pretty much sum it up for me. On top of all things I could not stand The chief or McHale so I had to hate all Celtics.  In the end Showtime was just so.much fun to watch. 

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IUFLA

IUFLA

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16 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

All of the above answers pretty much sum it up for me. On top of all things I could not stand The chief or McHale so I had to hate all Celtics.  In the end Showtime was just so.much fun to watch. 

 

12 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Also my best friend was a huge Bird and Celtics fan so we had some good discussions in the 80's

 

12 hours ago, Billingsley99 said:

He was the opposite of Magic. Once the both retired I could appreciate Bird.  IMO Bird was the bad guy and Magic the super hero

 

1 hour ago, NCHoosier32 said:

it's weird.  that's a great question.  i guess as a kid i thought Magic was so cool and so much fun to watch.  so i became a huge Lakers fan and just hated the Celtics and Bird for that reason.  i obviously didn't appreciate him back then.  when i watch shows or highlights of Bird now, i am blown away.  

 

25 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

For me it team was style of play. Plus my Dad was a Celtics fan which only helped me be more of a Lakers fan. Only later on in his career did I learn to appreciate how good/great he was but during the 80's I was team Lakers.

So another question for this group...

Do any of you remember that ISU run in 1979? We're you basketball fans then?

And S6 I realize you grew up in Illinois, so I can understand that run not meaning much to you...

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