Archie and Crean Recruiting Classes

[PritchardPutBack]

Thought it would be interesting to look at recruiting since Crean was hired using the 247sports rankings. With Lander officially reclassifying and the 2020 class seeming to be done, I thought this would be a good time to share the results so far. Here are the national rank, big ten rank, average class rating, and top recruit rating for all IU classes since 2008. Can include a screenshot of the results of each team if people are interested too but if people would like me to add anything else to compare the recruiting, let me know!

In

 

[milehiiu]

Neat.  Small sample for Archie.   Really think two for Coach Crean stand out for different reasons.  Victor, was a surprise, who turned out to be great.  Because of his work ethic. And Noah... sat the end of season out, in order not to hurt his NBA  numbers.   Complete opposites in my mind. And Noah is now a Denver Nugget.  Ugh.

[Brass Cannon]

Not a big fan of ranking of the class. Look at average ranking though.

Archie has all above 95. Crean with 6 below 90(The last one should drop below 90 if you take out race). 

Would be interested to compare this to Virginia over the last couple years

[FKIM01]

I think you crossed Oladipo and Watford's ratings.

[PritchardPutBack]

34 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

I think you crossed Oladipo and Watford's ratings.

Good catch! Updated it on my sheet but forgot to re-screenshot

[IU_Realist]

Miller has not recruited a kid outside of the top 150.  Crean recruited a ton. He had a lot of recruiting classes based on size.  Miller doesn’t reach and throw offers around like Crean did. 

[IUCrazy2]

1 hour ago, IU_Realist said:

Miller has not recruited a kid outside of the top 150.  Crean recruited a ton. He had a lot of recruiting classes based on size.  Miller doesn’t reach and throw offers around like Crean did. 

Size is the main thing about Creans recruiting classes, 60% of his classes were 5 guys or more.  40% were 6 or more.  That means that nearly half the time that Crean was here, he was turning over half his roster.  It is no wonder we were wildly inconsistent during his time here.

[5fouls]

Ultimately, it does not matter how 'strong' the class was coming in, you have to look at a class and determine whether it out-performed it's rating.  

In Crean's defense, obviously the Oladipo class was better than it was expected to be. 

And, I'm too lazy to look it up, but were @Colonialcresterand @Hoosierhoopsterin that Watford class dragging down the overall rating?  Otherwise, how is the overall rating for that group only .7743?  

Meanwhile, Yogi's class was highly rated and gave us Yogi and.......and lot of nothing.

 

[Seeking6]

Wasn't even sure where to put this. Guess I'll throw it here. This has to be one of the highest ranked/highest GPA for recruits classes of all time in P5 conferences, right? I mean maybe Northwestern or Vandy....otherwise what really, really impresses me is not only is Archie getting commits from 5 star/4 star guys....but all of them have what seems like very high GPA's.

Higher than me for sure. Combination of intellect AND athleticism can't be overlooked.

 

 

[5fouls]

1 hour ago, Seeking6 said:

Combination of intellect AND athleticism can't be overlooked.

 

 

I've been using that combo to my advantage my entire life.

[Proud2BAHoosier]

3 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Ultimately, it does not matter how 'strong' the class was coming in, you have to look at a class and determine whether it out-performed it's rating.  

In Crean's defense, obviously the Oladipo class was better than it was expected to be. 

And, I'm too lazy to look it up, but were @Colonialcresterand @Hoosierhoopsterin that Watford class dragging down the overall rating?  Otherwise, how is the overall rating for that group only .7743?  

Meanwhile, Yogi's class was highly rated and gave us Yogi and.......and lot of nothing.

 

Ahhhh..... Yes who could forget "The Movement"????  😁

[Brass Cannon]

9 minutes ago, Proud2BAHoosier said:

Ahhhh..... Yes who could forget "The Movement"????  😁

Doubt we would have seen a drop off if the toxic culture hadn’t ran Fischer off and if Remy hadn’t gotten into trouble.  

[BGleas]

It's kind of interesting that Crean's best two recruiting classes by the numbers (2012 & 2013) were his biggest busts too. 2012 was ranked 7th nationally and only produced one player of any significance and 2013 was ranked 4th nationally and really only produced Troy Williams and Colin Hartman. Let's be honest too, I love Hartman and would take him on my team 100 out of 100 times, but he's not a guy that is a headliner on the 4th ranked recruiting class in the country. 

How different is Tom Crean's tenure if those two recruiting classes had panned out? While any coach would take a step back for a season after the Zeller/Oladipo/Hulls/Watford crew left, a good coach would have still made the tournament in 2013-14 and then 2014-15 would have been right back to competing for a Big Ten Title and a high tournament seed with a veteran group of Yogi, Hollowell, Perea, Devin Davis, Troy Williams, etc., and a freshmen class with Blackmon and RoJo. 

The disaster that was the 2012 and 2013 classes is almost unbelievable. 

[IU878176]

3 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Ultimately, it does not matter how 'strong' the class was coming in, you have to look at a class and determine whether it out-performed it's rating.  

In Crean's defense, obviously the Oladipo class was better than it was expected to be. 

And, I'm too lazy to look it up, but were @Colonialcresterand @Hoosierhoopsterin that Watford class dragging down the overall rating?  Otherwise, how is the overall rating for that group only .7743?  

Meanwhile, Yogi's class was highly rated and gave us Yogi and.......and lot of nothing.

 

RE: The Watford class and team average rating of .7743. That number is a mis-print on the 247 site. For the other classes the number correctly reflects the average rating of each of the recruits. In the Watford class there were 6 recruits with Wat  being over .98, Creek, Hulls and Easton were over .92, Capo was nearly .90 and Bawa was around .85. The class average was well over .90, not .7743, and was ranked 18th in the country.

[IU878176]

6 minutes ago, BGleas said:

It's kind of interesting that Crean's best two recruiting classes by the numbers (2012 & 2013) were his biggest busts too. 2012 was ranked 7th nationally and only produced one player of any significance and 2013 was ranked 4th nationally and really only produced Troy Williams and Colin Hartman. Let's be honest too, I love Hartman and would take him on my team 100 out of 100 times, but he's not a guy that is a headliner on the 4th ranked recruiting class in the country. 

How different is Tom Crean's tenure if those two recruiting classes had panned out? While any coach would take a step back for a season after the Zeller/Oladipo/Hulls/Watford crew left, a good coach would have still made the tournament in 2013-14 and then 2014-15 would have been right back to competing for a Big Ten Title and a high tournament seed with a veteran group of Yogi, Hollowell, Perea, Devin Davis, Troy Williams, etc., and a freshmen class with Blackmon and RoJo. 

The disaster that was the 2012 and 2013 classes is almost unbelievable. 

Yep,

I particularly remember how fired up/giddy we are all were when the “Movement” was coming together. Unfortunately the Movement was indeed a movement.

[BGleas]

9 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

Yep,

I particularly remember how fired up/giddy we are all were when the “Movement” was coming together. Unfortunately the Movement was indeed a movement.

We were all fired up, though when you look at it the 2013 class was even better according to the rankings. But it really is amazing what a colossal miss both classes were and to have them happen consecutively was a disaster.

[13th&Jackson]

3 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

 Combination of intellect AND athleticism can't be overlooked.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, 5fouls said:

I've been using that combo to my advantage my entire life.

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

We were all fired up, though when you look at it the 2013 class was even better according to the rankings. But it really is amazing what a colossal miss both classes were and to have them happen consecutively was a disaster.

Bigger picture, this highlights one of the reasons why I don't get too up or down based on the number of "stars" and perceived class or individual "rankings," by the services. 

Sure, generally, you want one or two 5-star types and a balanced group of 4-star types, but man it gets  overboard how much focus is placed on a player's or a class's ranking. 

There are guys like Lander, Romeo (without the hand/thumb injury) etc. who we know are going to elevate a team as impact players almost from day 1, guys who have demonstrated elite-level / winning play over their high school careers and make a program better the moment they arrive. 

And of course a class with a number of fillers, who we know coming in are going to be primarily practice players, is not generally a good thing (though there is reason generally to have some guys who are more there for the team support, leadership, effort level, etc.)

But there were plenty of signs that that 2012 class could be a miss, Perea ranked almost entirely on athleticism and perceived upside, the academic reach for Patterson, Jurkin already with leg issues and also mostly ranked on potential upside, even Hollowell's ranking while schools like OSU backed off because of his more recent play. The "rankings" were just off -- they were not good indicators of the level several of those guys were actually at, and in Patterson's case it was more about academic ability to qualify. (Not meaning to go back into what really happened over the summer with his academics.)

Contrast that with guys like Oladipo and OG. It's one thing to say guys there are always exceptions, under-ranked players, but those guys had ALL the signs of being under-ranked, guys already showing monster games (to go with strong academics). At the exceptional DeMatha Catholic program, Vic was averaging a double-double with boards as a guard. He was already a monster defender. Local guys (who I know) were already raving about him. He wasn't on the high profile recruit ranking boards, because of oversight. Really, the same for OG. When Crean first saw him he was like, who is this guy? OG wasn't even in the game's program. He was destroying the ranked guys playing against him, and like Vic he knew the game -- he was already showing basketball knoweldge / floor vision from the wing, to go with exceptional D. 

Now you have CAM's recruiting, still fairly early but starting to show a really good approach, built with kids who are already proven winners and who 'know the game.' He's recruiting in the top 150 generally, he's absolutely recruiting 5-star level players - 3 years of Indiana Mr. Basketballs -- but he's not STARTING at the "star ranking" or rankings generally. He's looking for kids who are proving themselves on both sides of the floor, who have developed their ranking or prospect status while showing team-oriented winning first play, with developed and developing basketball skill and floor vision.

Geronimo is going to be really interesting to watch. Another under-the-radar kid whose game has been catching up to his elite athleticism, who wins at a high level, recognized as the top player in  his state, developing an outside game to go with his rim-attacking play and defense-first play. 

For me, rankings get way, way more attention than they should. 

[Colonialcrester]

5 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Ultimately, it does not matter how 'strong' the class was coming in, you have to look at a class and determine whether it out-performed it's rating.  

In Crean's defense, obviously the Oladipo class was better than it was expected to be. 

And, I'm too lazy to look it up, but were @Colonialcresterand @Hoosierhoopsterin that Watford class dragging down the overall rating?  Otherwise, how is the overall rating for that group only .7743?  

Meanwhile, Yogi's class was highly rated and gave us Yogi and.......and lot of nothing.

 

I was the volunteer manager for the women's beach volleyball team at the time so don't blame me. I didn't have time for basketball that year.

[5fouls]

Just now, Colonialcrester said:

I was the volunteer manager for the women's beach volleyball team at the time so don't blame me. I didn't have time for basketball that year.

I've recently seen your name associated with the UK cheerleading squad.  Any truth to that rumor?

[Colonialcrester]

28 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I've recently seen your name associated with the UK cheerleading squad.  Any truth to that rumor?

Let me Google it first....

[cybergates]

5 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Bigger picture, this highlights one of the reasons why I don't get too up or down based on the number of "stars" and perceived class or individual "rankings," by the services. 

Sure, generally, you want one or two 5-star types and a balanced group of 4-star types, but man it gets  overboard how much focus is placed on a player's or a class's ranking. 

There are guys like Lander, Romeo (without the hand/thumb injury) etc. who we know are going to elevate a team as impact players almost from day 1, guys who have demonstrated elite-level / winning play over their high school careers and make a program better the moment they arrive. 

And of course a class with a number of fillers, who we know coming in are going to be primarily practice players, is not generally a good thing (though there is reason generally to have some guys who are more there for the team support, leadership, effort level, etc.)

But there were plenty of signs that that 2012 class could be a miss, Perea ranked almost entirely on athleticism and perceived upside, the academic reach for Patterson, Jurkin already with leg issues and also mostly ranked on potential upside, even Hollowell's ranking while schools like OSU backed off because of his more recent play. The "rankings" were just off -- they were not good indicators of the level several of those guys were actually at, and in Patterson's case it was more about academic ability to qualify. (Not meaning to go back into what really happened over the summer with his academics.)

Contrast that with guys like Oladipo and OG. It's one thing to say guys there are always exceptions, under-ranked players, but those guys had ALL the signs of being under-ranked, guys already showing monster games (to go with strong academics). At the exceptional DeMatha Catholic program, Vic was averaging a double-double with boards as a guard. He was already a monster defender. Local guys (who I know) were already raving about him. He wasn't on the high profile recruit ranking boards, because of oversight. Really, the same for OG. When Crean first saw him he was like, who is this guy? OG wasn't even in the game's program. He was destroying the ranked guys playing against him, and like Vic he knew the game -- he was already showing basketball knoweldge / floor vision from the wing, to go with exceptional D. 

Now you have CAM's recruiting, still fairly early but starting to show a really good approach, built with kids who are already proven winners and who 'know the game.' He's recruiting in the top 150 generally, he's absolutely recruiting 5-star level players - 3 years of Indiana Mr. Basketballs -- but he's not STARTING at the "star ranking" or rankings generally. He's looking for kids who are proving themselves on both sides of the floor, who have developed their ranking or prospect status while showing team-oriented winning first play, with developed and developing basketball skill and floor vision.

Geronimo is going to be really interesting to watch. Another under-the-radar kid whose game has been catching up to his elite athleticism, who wins at a high level, recognized as the top player in  his state, developing an outside game to go with his rim-attacking play and defense-first play. 

For me, rankings get way, way more attention than they should. 

I wonder how much coaches look at them. Guessing not much. Regardless I would much rather have a coach who goes after his guys (who hopefully are highly ranked) than goes after guys who are ranked highly by recruiting services that have no repercussions for misses. 

[Beowulf50]

On 5/18/2020 at 5:34 PM, milehiiu said:

Neat.  Small sample for Archie.   Really think two for Coach Crean stand out for different reasons.  Victor, was a surprise, who turned out to be great.  Because of his work ethic. And Noah... sat the end of season out, in order not to hurt his NBA  numbers.   Complete opposites in my mind. And Noah is now a Denver Nugget.  Ugh.

VO wasn’t a surprise to me....my family and I went to the Derby Festival Classic specifically to watch VO! VO, was the first player on the court and when he saw our IU shirts he waved at us and my son young at the time walked down court-side and VO autographed his ball. I saw his work ethic and knew he would be a special player! I told my wife on the drive home that he is going to be special! VO only had like four points in that game but I based my expectations on his work ethic!!