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Just got a few photos from my buddy who is an officer in Madison. Not sharing because I'm not sure if he was supposed to even show but his vehicle is torn up, graffiti, windows all smashed out.....stolen squad cars, guns out, rocks thrown at him all night. This is just in Madison, Wisconsin. No clue what to do because this can't keep happening. It just can't. When 9/11 happened we were angry but angry because we had a common enemy and collectively we pulled together as a country.

Right now the level of anger, hate, frustration, sadness.....across all party lines, socioeconomic status, color, religion,etc....is as high as I've ever experienced. I had to shut down a group text with my own family last night because differing opinions on reasons for who to blame,etc.....and that's even a bigger problem. When communications ceases we have made a big problem even bigger.

Our cities can''t maintain this burning, looting, crime.....and killings. If it takes some form of national guard or military to bring some peace. I'm all for it at this point.

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Cops in Chicago complaining how utterly unprepared they were. Being dropped off, and isolated, in small groups so they were not as effective. Failure to shut down bridges , buses, trains in a timely manner to reduce the flow of people. Up to a dozen? hospitalized. A few with broken bones. 

And then there is this. WTF? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-biden-bail-idUSKBN2360SZ

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10 hours ago, btownqb said:

You riot and loot you're a complete thug, I really don't care what color you are. I'm watching these videos right now of Indy... my dad owned his own business for 40 years, they would have been shot. 

Talked with a good friend Saturday, who has a friend that owns a business where the Denver "protest" was taking place on Friday night.  To check  on the business owner, and see if his business got vandalized.  Business owner, said. Nope.... 'cause I was standing in the door with my shotgun. 

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33 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

Talked with a good friend Saturday, who has a friend that owns a business where the Denver "protest" was taking place on Friday night.  To check  on the business owner, and see if his business got vandalized.  Business owner, said. Nope.... 'cause I was standing in the door with my shotgun. 

Good for him.

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The destruction is BS. The complete lack of respect for the impact on the lives of others is appalling. However, we can choose to emphasize that aspect of the protests, or we can look at the root cause of the protests - the perceived injustice - and ask what more can be done to work on it. 

While the protests are ostensibly for justice for George Flynn, they also obviously encapsulate pent up frustration about the lack of progress in a host of areas in society over time, specifically as they impact communities of color and the poor. There may be little that can be done in the immediate time frame that could satisfy the protesters (or the looters, or both). But, as the institutional leadership, I would definitely be talking directly with activist and community leaders about concrete steps to investigate and act with regard to major issues. 

Things like rooting out cronyism and corruption in law enforcement: Why is a guy like Chauvin still on the force with 16 or 18 IA complaints? How and when will we address eliminating no-knock warrants? When will we start the process of reviewing for potential expungement convictions for non-violent drug-related crime? How do we improve conditions, pay, and protection for front-line workers and earning more broadly for lower-income workers. What is our intent for the other officers involved in the Floyd murder and how will we secure a higher level murder charge for him?

I know part of the answer to issues of this nature is all those things take time. It's part of the political and judicial process. But the protesters will obviously say we've been trying to pressure and advocate for this for years and the process has not yielded substantive change. I have a hard time arguing that point. And change surrounding said issue would have positive effects for the whole of society.

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9 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

No, bad for him. You don’t meet damage to property with murder, and you don’t take the law in your own hands. Unless you want to be part of the problem, and go to jail 

I will protect my personal property...

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Seems to me some of these situations can be avoided if the police would show some discretion and not try to enforce petty bs laws.  Just because it's a law doesnt mean it's right.  If someone is breaking some stupid law, like the Eric Garner case in New York where he died because he was selling loosey cigarettes, but isn't harming anyone why not leave them alone. 

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On 5/29/2020 at 1:24 PM, hoosier_exotics said:

Does anyone have actual data on how many black folks, and how many white folks are killed per year by cops?  

Found this, not sure how legit it is

Screenshot_20200529-132712_Chrome.jpg

I think these numbers would look a lot different if the study added the qualifier “unarmed” to the breakdown. It’s not really the raw number that matters, it’s the context of the situations. 

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So last night got kind of crazy here in our neighborhood. It was peaceful until police SUVs rammed into a crowd on the corner of our street (St. Marks) and Flatbush. After that, all bets were off. The tenor of the crowd changed drastically. There was no looting of stores only the destruction of NYPD cars. My wife went for a run this morning and notes that there was absolutely no damage to any stores along Flatbush or in our neighborhood. There were NYPD cars burnt to a crisp, but they deserve it.

And this shows peaceful protestors protecting our local Target store from looters.

https://twitter.com/aquaribubblegum/status/126692996479389Protestors protecting Target at Atlantic Terminal, Brooklyn6961?s=20Protestors protecting Target at Atlantic Terminal, Brooklyn

Looks like lots of looting in Soho, but that's Manhattan.

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42 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

In Texas, the law says you'd be perfectly justified...

Colorado's law is a little more sticky...they do have a "Make My Day" law as cited here...

For the Texas example.  I think that 2A is very telling.  And in Colorado. Make my day, almost always applies  when someone has broken into your house, or business, and you feel threatened.  The Denver business owner standing at his door, prevented looters from entering his business.... which if they had entered most likely would have gotten shot. Which most likely would have been justified doing under our Make My Day law.

Also.  Watched what happened in Indianapolis Friday night.  Horrible.

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2 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

So last night got kind of crazy here in our neighborhood. It was peaceful until police SUVs rammed into a crowd on the corner of our street (St. Marks) and Flatbush. After that, all bets were off. The tenor of the crowd changed drastically. There was no looting of stores only the destruction of NYPD cars. My wife went for a run this morning and notes that there was absolutely no damage to any stores along Flatbush or in our neighborhood. There were NYPD cars burnt to a crisp, but they deserve it.

And this shows peaceful protestors protecting our local Target store from looters.

https://twitter.com/aquaribubblegum/status/126692996479389Protestors protecting Target at Atlantic Terminal, Brooklyn6961?s=20Protestors protecting Target at Atlantic Terminal, Brooklyn

Looks like lots of looting in Soho, but that's Manhattan.

I saw one NYC police car that had an American flag draped out of a window.  Get torched.  Burnt to a crisp, along with the flag.

Shoutout to those protecting the Target store.

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2 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

For the Texas example.  I think that 2A is very telling.  And in Colorado. Make my day, almost always applies  when someone has broken into your house, or business, and you feel threatened.  The Denver business owner standing at his door, prevented looters from entering his business.... which if they had entered most likely would have gotten shot. Which most likely would have been justified doing under our Make My Day law.

Also.  Watched what happened in Indianapolis Friday night.  Horrible.

As the old saying about life and property protection goes...

"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." 

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2 hours ago, D-BONE said:

The destruction is BS. The complete lack of respect for the impact on the lives of others is appalling. However, we can choose to emphasize that aspect of the protests, or we can look at the root cause of the protests - the perceived injustice - and ask what more can be done to work on it. 

While the protests are ostensibly for justice for George Flynn, they also obviously encapsulate pent up frustration about the lack of progress in a host of areas in society over time, specifically as they impact communities of color and the poor. There may be little that can be done in the immediate time frame that could satisfy the protesters (or the looters, or both). But, as the institutional leadership, I would definitely be talking directly with activist and community leaders about concrete steps to investigate and act with regard to major issues. 

Things like rooting out cronyism and corruption in law enforcement: Why is a guy like Chauvin still on the force with 16 or 18 IA complaints? How and when will we address eliminating no-knock warrants? When will we start the process of reviewing for potential expungement convictions for non-violent drug-related crime? How do we improve conditions, pay, and protection for front-line workers and earning more broadly for lower-income workers. What is our intent for the other officers involved in the Floyd murder and how will we secure a higher level murder charge for him?

I know part of the answer to issues of this nature is all those things take time. It's part of the political and judicial process. But the protesters will obviously say we've been trying to pressure and advocate for this for years and the process has not yielded substantive change. I have a hard time arguing that point. And change surrounding said issue would have positive effects for the whole of society.

That's what I can't understand. Chauvin obviously should have been canned long ago but why didn't anyone step in while Floyd was on the ground?  I read on another forum from police that you don't leave a person on their stomach after they've been subdued. Once you have control you put them in a recovery position. On their side, sit or stand them up, whatever. It's in their basic training. That no one did that one little thing is amazing to me. You didn't have to loudly confront Chauvin, just approach and offer to "help" roll him over or sit him up. But everyone there ignored basic procedure and let him die. Maybe there are more dirtbag cops out there than I'd like to think or maybe the good ones need to be more vocal or assertive.

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2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

That's what I can't understand. Chauvin obviously should have been canned long ago but why didn't anyone step in while Floyd was on the ground?  I read on another forum from police that you don't leave a person on their stomach after they've been subdued. Once you have control you put them in a recovery position. On their side, sit or stand them up, whatever. It's in their basic training. That no one did that one little thing is amazing to me. You didn't have to loudly confront Chauvin, just approach and offer to "help" roll him over or sit him up. But everyone there ignored basic procedure and let him die. Maybe there are more dirtbag cops out there than I'd like to think or maybe the good ones need to be more vocal or assertive.

40% of cops are domestic abusers. "Good" cops frequently sit idly while things like this happen. "Good" cops do nothing to root out the "bad" cops. "Good" cops make the choice to be the arbitors of bad, unjust laws. 

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1 hour ago, dbmhoosier said:

You break into someone's home or business and get shot it is 100% your own fault. 

Nope. Home - yes, business, no.

You don’t get to defend personal property with deadly force unless you are acting in self defense, as in you are threatened with physical harm.
That’s basic criminal law in basically every state except - wait for it - Texas, which is generally referred to as the one free shot state. 
In your home, if someone breaks in that’s usually a much more dangerous situation. 
This discussion started about a guy who stands in his business ready to shotgun down anyone who comes in. Get a grip - that’s murder, and unless he was physically threatened he’d be charged and would go to jail for murder 

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