5fouls Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said: Regardless they still need to threaten you with it. Otherwise business owners could just shoot anybody openly carrying in their business If they break the windows out of your business, then I consider that a threat. Do you not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 A good rule to live by... Dont mess with people you dont know. Alot of people could avoid trouble by just doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 1 minute ago, BGleas said: This isn’t going to be popular, but... Part of the reason we’re in this situation is because we’ve come to a point where some in our society value a pack of gum on the counter, a case of coke in the cooler, or a TV hanging in the wall in businesses more than we value human life. We have a shoot first mentality, then ask questions later and hope I can come up with a reason it was self defense. I get it, I don’t want anyone stealing my stuff or my livelihood, but I’m also not going to take a human life over it and then wear that I did that as a badge of honor. If someone breaks into your business and loots it, they should absolutely be arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent. Absolutely. But, I’m not taking someone’s life unless I have absolutely no other way out. There's a difference between taking a life of someone looting and vandalizing versus arresting them when they break the law. I'm not advocating killing the guy that is throwing a rock through a window. But, arrest him? Yeah. That needs to happen. I can't speak for every city, but I know arresting the violent protestors is not something that happened in Louisville on Friday night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass Cannon Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, 5fouls said: If they break the windows out of your business, then I consider that a threat. Do you not? The law doesn’t which is all the matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbmhoosier Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said: The law doesn’t which is all the matters. A jury would which is all that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, 5fouls said: There's a difference between taking a life of someone looting and vandalizing versus arresting them when they break the law. I'm not advocating killing the guy that is throwing a rock through a window. But, arrest him? Yeah. That needs to happen. I can't speak for every city, but I know arresting the violent protestors is not something that happened in Louisville on Friday night. That’s exactly what I said. People shouldn’t be killed over “stuff” and “things”. They should be arrested. But, we have a segment of our society that puffs out their chest with their guns and their “I will defend my stuff at all costs”... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierJax Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 22 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said: Pretty sure they have to threaten you with a weapon. Or to brandish it at you. Weapons can be many things...o women in my hometown was robbed and murdered by a hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 31 minutes ago, 5fouls said: John Grisham got it right in 1989 with his novel, A Time to Kill. For those who are not familiar with the story, a pair of redneck white men rape a young, preteen black girl. The father of the girl kills the two men, gets arrested for murder, and goes to trial. The jury ultimately finds him not guilty. The difference between that story and what's going on now? The father sought vengeance against those that committed the crime. I have absolutely no problem with what the fictional father in the book did. For the current story, businesses like CVS, Target, T-Mobile, and all the restaurants that have been vandalized and looted were not the ones that committed the injustice. That's wrong, and the people that are trying to justify this as a way to right an injustice are simply not looking at this properly. Seeking vengeance against a person/entity that had nothing to do with the original crime is wrong. And, as we're told when we are in grade school, two rights don't make a wrong. From my perspective, it makes no sense to try and argue otherwise. This post kind of got overlooked in the business owner defending his business discussion. For those that believe the 'protests' that we have seen are justified, please explain to me why retaliation against an innocent business and/or person is okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass Cannon Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 13 minutes ago, HoosierJax said: Weapons can be many things...o women in my hometown was robbed and murdered by a hammer They still would have to threaten you to justify it. Simply having a hammer is not a threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 22 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said: They still would have to threaten you to justify it. Simply having a hammer is not a threat. I think you’re hitting a really important point. This point of “threaten you”. We’ve talked a lot in this discussion about self defense and what constitutes threatening. Part of the reason all of this is happening is that in your hammer scenario, there is a portion of our society that finds being black as threatening. I see a black guy with a hammer in my neighborhood, I’m threatened and justified to chase him down and question him with my gun drawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said: If you think shooting and killing an unarmed guy who breaks a window to steal something at your Business makes you a man, that’s too bad Well if you wait to see if the intruder pulls a gun on you then it might be to late because you will be dead. If a person breaks a glass window then he has to have something that broke the window which could be a weapon. If a person wants to stay safe then no break into a place to steal things in the first place. I just hate seeing innocent people having their business destroyed over something that they had nothing to do with. Also the people who are doing the rioting and looting are not doing it to protest but they see an opportunity to break the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 1 minute ago, BGleas said: I think you’re hitting a really important point. This point of “threaten you”. We’ve talked a lot in this discussion about self defense and what constitutes threatening. Part of the reason all of this is happening is that in your hammer scenario, there is a portion of our society that finds being black as threatening. I see a black guy with a hammer in my neighborhood, I’m threatened and justified to chase him down and question him with my gun drawn. Simply being in In your neighborhood? No, of course not. Smashing the windows out of your home or business? Yes. that's threatening. And, it's threatening whether the person doing it is black, white, or green. So, I personally have no problem with a shop owner standing in his doorway protecting his property if all the buildings around him are having windows smashed, inventory stolen, and getting set on fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass Cannon Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 1 minute ago, 5fouls said: Simply being in In your neighborhood? No, of course not. Smashing the windows out of your home or business? Yes. that's threatening. And, it's threatening whether the person doing it is black, white, or green. So, I personally have no problem with a shop owner standing in his doorway protecting his property if all the buildings around him are having windows smashed, inventory stolen, and getting set on fire. The rules apply to the looters in your mind but not shop owners. Strange rationale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Brass Cannon said: The rules apply to the looters in your mind but not shop owners. Strange rationale Okay. The guy that smashed the window comes in with a hammer. His buddy, who you can't see yet, has a gun. Does your position change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 46 minutes ago, BGleas said: That’s exactly what I said. People shouldn’t be killed over “stuff” and “things”. They should be arrested. But, we have a segment of our society that puffs out their chest with their guns and their “I will defend my stuff at all costs”... I don't have a gun and have never shot one and never will but I don't see a problem with people defending themselves. if a person brings a baseball bat and breaks a window of a business and he comes in with that bat and starts stealing, I feel that owner has the right to defend himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass Cannon Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Okay. The guy that smashed the window comes in with a hammer. His buddy, who you can't see yet, has a gun. Does your position change? You can’t kill somebody based on a maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Simply being in In your neighborhood? No, of course not. Smashing the windows out of your home or business? Yes. that's threatening. And, it's threatening whether the person doing it is black, white, or green. So, I personally have no problem with a shop owner standing in his doorway protecting his property if all the buildings around him are having windows smashed, inventory stolen, and getting set on fire. I've moved on from the looting topic and moved to why we're in this situation to begin with. There are a whole lot of people in this country that think just being black is threatening. White guy I dont know in my neighborhood with a hammer, "he, probably just a neighbor I haven't met before", same scenario except the guys is black, "hello 911, there's a man in my neighborhood threatening people with a hammer" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 13 minutes ago, BGleas said: I think you’re hitting a really important point. This point of “threaten you”. We’ve talked a lot in this discussion about self defense and what constitutes threatening. Part of the reason all of this is happening is that in your hammer scenario, there is a portion of our society that finds being black as threatening. I see a black guy with a hammer in my neighborhood, I’m threatened and justified to chase him down and question him with my gun drawn. In your scenario where he is just on the street then no you don't have the right to do anything to him. If he comes into your business by breaking a window with that hammer then starts stealing your stuff then I don't find a problem with that owner defending himself. If that owner would go up to the guy to try to stop him without anything then he will be hit with that hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, BGleas said: I've moved on from the looting topic and moved to why we're in this situation to begin with. There are a whole lot of people in this country that think just being black is threatening. White guy I dont know in my neighborhood with a hammer, "he, probably just a neighbor I haven't met before", same scenario except the guys is black, "hello 911, there's a man in my neighborhood threatening people with a hammer" I am as scared to go into certain areas of Indy that are what you would call white trash neighborhoods. To me it does not matter what color you are because each race has their bad and they have their good as well. For me it is about the type of neighbor hood you are in and not if it is considered a black or white neighborhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 1 minute ago, IU Scott said: I am as scared to go into certain areas of Indy that are what you would call white trash neighborhoods. To me it does not matter what color you are because each race has their bad and they have their good as well. For me it is about the type of neighbor hood you are in and not if it is considered a black or white neighborhood. White woman fired after she calls police on black man who asked her to leash dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 I am still trying to understand the legal precedent that says that the person who is being victimized, whose property is being stolen, damaged or destroyed, has to pause to determine the intent of the perpetrator. If I am a business owner, and my windows are broken, I’d view both the rock being thrown, as well as the flying glass as potential lethal weapons. Whether the intent of the person throwing them was to kill me is not something I would wait to determine. All that said, we saw this all about 25 years ago. Pretty sure someone who got the bejesus kicked out of him famously asked, “Can’t we all just get along?” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, IU Scott said: In your scenario where he is just on the street then no you don't have the right to do anything to him. If he comes into your business by breaking a window with that hammer then starts stealing your stuff then I don't find a problem with that owner defending himself. If that owner would go up to the guy to try to stop him without anything then he will be hit with that hammer. But people are upset in this country because the scenario of where he is just in the street is happening all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 We are talking a whole lot more about looting than we are about systemic police violence against POC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 1 minute ago, HoosierFaithful said: We are talking a whole lot more about looting than we are about systemic police violence against POC. Well said. I was trying to switch the convo back to why we're in this situation to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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