Lostin76 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 10 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Yet you seem to want to lump all cops in with bad cops, while not doing the same with protesters...and really neither should be done... There were amazing scenes with cops yesterday kneeling and marching with protestors. Major props to those cops reaching out to find common ground with the protestors. And I have already said "I am not in support of violence and looting of innocent property or the violence of cops against protestors." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoyeCowbell Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 26 minutes ago, milehiiu said: This is what happened in Denver on Sunday : Groups volunteer, clean up Civic Center Park, downtown Denver after weekend of protests | 9news.com More groups are planning to help out today. June 1. One couple weren't willing to wait, and was at the Capital Building at 5:30 this morning. On their hands and knees, scrubbing graffiti off the entrance to the building. That's awesome and I applaud all who help the clean up process... It also further illustrates the stark reality of the current social climate. Some (hopefully most!) businesses & property can be cleaned, repaired, restored, etc. Unfortunately, lives lost unnecessarily, cannot. As Americans, we are very resilient people, and I really hope we're all able to do the hard work to heal what's broken and make tomorrow better than today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 9 minutes ago, Lostin76 said: There were amazing scenes with cops yesterday kneeling and marching with protestors. Major props to those cops reaching out to find common ground with the protestors. And I have already said "I am not in support of violence and looting of innocent property or the violence of cops against protestors." I saw that too...I also saw numerous examples of protesters being peaceful and other citizens not involved in the protest, helping with clean up... And you forgot "violence of protesters against cops." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass Cannon Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 54 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Yes, certainly sounds like the police are the issue in this article Just acknowledge that there are idiots on both sides. You, @KoB2011, and @Brass Cannon, seem to want to give the benefit of doubt to the protesters. You even tacitly imply that the violence is justified by saying "I think that's why our hood was so angry and torched so many police cars last night." Each act of violence is an INDIVIDUAL act on both sides...and should be treated and dealt with as such... Nobody said there weren’t idiots on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-BONE Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 The right for an individual to protect themselves when being threatened in his/her home is precisely at play in the Breonna Taylor tragedy in Louisville. In that case, there was violent force, injury, and loss by both private citizens and the police force. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/breonna-taylor-police-shooting-what-we-know-about-kentucky-woman-n1207841 It appears the question of whether or not the plainclothes officers actually identified themselves and announced they were conducting a drug raid with a warrant will play a central role in the legal case. As you are aware, however, the police executed the warrant at 1 AM at the wrong location (10 miles off) against two people with no prior drug convictions and no drugs were found on the premises. The police state they did identify themselves and their purposes immediately before forcibly entering the residence. It is reported that a judge previously authorized a no-knock warrant for the police action. Instead of arguing whether Taylor's boyfriend had the right to protect himself with his licensed firearm and/or whether this was another act of universally evil police forces, why don't we push to de-escalate the drug-war style policing, no-knock warrants, and continue to reduce and or eliminate the draconian sentencing surrounding the drug trade. This would help people of many different backgrounds. At the same time, I do wonder (and please note I'm just wondering) what racial groups are most subject to no-knock warrants and longer sentences for similar crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass Cannon Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 13 minutes ago, D-BONE said: The right for an individual to protect themselves when being threatened in his/her home is precisely at play in the Breonna Taylor tragedy in Louisville. In that case, there was violent force, injury, and loss by both private citizens and the police force. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/breonna-taylor-police-shooting-what-we-know-about-kentucky-woman-n1207841 It appears the question of whether or not the plainclothes officers actually identified themselves and announced they were conducting a drug raid with a warrant will play a central role in the legal case. As you are aware, however, the police executed the warrant at 1 AM at the wrong location (10 miles off) against two people with no prior drug convictions and no drugs were found on the premises. The police state they did identify themselves and their purposes immediately before forcibly entering the residence. It is reported that a judge previously authorized a no-knock warrant for the police action. Instead of arguing whether Taylor's boyfriend had the right to protect himself with his licensed firearm and/or whether this was another act of universally evil police forces, why don't we push to de-escalate the drug-war style policing, no-knock warrants, and continue to reduce and or eliminate the draconian sentencing surrounding the drug trade. This would help people of many different backgrounds. At the same time, I do wonder (and please note I'm just wondering) what racial groups are most subject to no-knock warrants and longer sentences for similar crimes. Yeah I agree the whole concept of a no knock warrant just sounds too far and dangerous. Had they done that to my uncle the result would have been similar. That being said I don’t believe cops. Several witnesses said they didn’t knock. Which makes sense because they specifically asked for a no knock warrant. The military style policing has to stop. Cops forgetting to turn body cams on has to stop. Cops don’t control the camera in their cruiser. Why not remove that capability from police. Just have it run for the entire shift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 19 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said: Nobody said there weren’t idiots on both sides. No, I'm just pointing out that you and others seem to want to castigate one side while excusing the other... I understand it was the action of police officer that set this off...and I've said more than a few times he should pay a heavy price for his crime...but let's be fair about what's happened since then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass Cannon Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, IUFLA said: No, I'm just pointing out that you and others seem to want to castigate one side while excusing the other... I understand it was the action of police officer that set this off...and I've said more than a few times he should pay a heavy price for his crime...but let's be fair about what's happened since then... Not wanting to use excessive force does not equate to excusing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass Cannon Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 30 minutes ago, Reacher said: In other news people in Idaho, Mississippi, New Hampshire and Vermont are probably still talking about Covid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 minute ago, IUFLA said: No, I'm just pointing out that you and others seem to want to castigate one side while excusing the other... I understand it was the action of police officer that set this off...and I've said more than a few times he should pay a heavy price for his crime...bit let's be fair about what's happened since then... Yes, let's be fair about it. Since then we had a peaceful protest in Minneapolis that was escalated by police. This is in stark contrast to the armed protests in Michigan a few weeks earlier that the police did not escalate.... Then the situation was further exasperated by white suprematists.... So from my perspective, the thing that has escalated the situation to be as bad as it is now is what started it in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-BONE Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 8 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said: Yeah I agree the whole concept of a no knock warrant just sounds too far and dangerous. Had they done that to my uncle the result would have been similar. That being said I don’t believe cops. Several witnesses said they didn’t knock. Which makes sense because they specifically asked for a no knock warrant. The military style policing has to stop. Cops forgetting to turn body cams on has to stop. Cops don’t control the camera in their cruiser. Why not remove that capability from police. Just have it run for the entire shift. Yes. The more transparency the better. The less militarization the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted June 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 There appears to be a percentage of the country that looks for an excuse to loot, pillage, vandalize, and down right destroy property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 minute ago, rico said: There appears to be a percentage of the country that looks for an excuse to loot, pillage, vandalize, and down right destroy property. There appears to be a percentage of the country that looks for an excuse to not talk about systemic racism and injustice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted June 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 minute ago, KoB2011 said: There appears to be a percentage of the country that looks for an excuse to not talk about systemic racism and injustice. Dude that gets talked about all the time. My entire lifetime to be exact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 10 hours ago, 5fouls said: A guy goes into a business with a weapon.... gun, hammer, knife, take your pick. Robber tells the store owner to give him all the money in the cash register, Store owner says to robber, "Just take the money, please don't hurt me". Store owner realizes the robber is not wearing a mask and recognizes him as a kid from the neighborhood. Robber has not announced or even indicated in any way that he would harm the store owner. But, given that the owner recognizes the robber, there is a good chance the robber will. At what point in this scenario does the 'property crime' cross the imaginary line where it is okay for the store owner to pull his own weapon and defend himself. Is that after he is dead? Defeats the purpose right? What’s your point? Are you again trying to create justification for shooting the person - here, a kid? Again, if the shop owner is threatened or has a REASONABLE belief (not his subjective belief) that he is being threatened with deadly or similar force — eg, gun, then he can DEFEND HIMSELF with deadly force. it’s not an “imaginary” line between property and person, whatever that is supposed to mean. Either you are defending yourself or you are defending your property. You don’t get to blur the line to try to justify it, Fouls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 Just now, rico said: Dude that gets talked about all the time. My entire lifetime to be exact. You'd think you'd be sick of it by now and want to change it just to shut people up by now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 8 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: Yes, let's be fair about it. Since then we had a peaceful protest in Minneapolis that was escalated by police. This is in stark contrast to the armed protests in Michigan a few weeks earlier that the police did not escalate.... Then the situation was further exasperated by white suprematists.... So from my perspective, the thing that has escalated the situation to be as bad as it is now is what started it in the first place. I really doubt cowardly white supremacists are instigating. Yes, there are agitators, but they arent white supremacists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted June 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 minute ago, KoB2011 said: You'd think you'd be sick of it by now and want to change it just to shut people up by now.... I am sick of it but I don't loot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 minute ago, mrflynn03 said: I really doubt cowardly white supremacists are instigating. Yes, there are agitators, but they arent white supremacists. That flies in the face of the best information we have to this point, but okay, who do you think they are? Do you have a credible source that says it isn't white supremacists? If you say that it is antifa then let's walk through this logically... in order to have anti-fascists, you first must have fascists. We see this time and time again; Charlottesville is a great example. Clint Watts is one of the more respected voices in security in this country and a West Point grad, here are some of this thoughts... He goes into some other areas, but please understand if there is anything done by antifa it is necessarily a reaction to a fascists group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-BONE Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, rico said: Dude that gets talked about all the time. My entire lifetime to be exact. I 100% agree. I also agree the destructive elements associated with the legitimate protests are wrong. At the same time, historically, advocacy for social change is often accompanied by it. So my view is, while those who go to extremes must deal with whatever consequences they invoke, they don't represent the cause and sentiments of the majority of peaceful protestors. If we hope to move towards peace, we should focus on the justice being sought by majority who support this movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-BONE Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 White supremacists are the enemy? Antifa is the enemy? Both ideologies way too extreme for my taste. In the unlikely event one single group like this could be proven to be 100% responsible, the only thing I foresee coming from it is one party or ideology trying to put a black eye on the other one. Don't let the extremes distract from positive action to address the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 31 minutes ago, IUFLA said: No, I'm just pointing out that you and others seem to want to castigate one side while excusing the other... I understand it was the action of police officer that set this off...and I've said more than a few times he should pay a heavy price for his crime...but let's be fair about what's happened since then... I've had a handful of friends (that i know about) go out and protest in different areas of the country. All 5 of them were involved in protests that were peaceful. 2 of them were showered with tear gas. Both of those protests remained non-violent but the tensions were definitely accelerated. The questions both of my buddies were asking was: what were the police hoping to achieve by using tear gas? Nothing was out of hand, but the preemptive strike put things more at risk to escalate. It's a small sample size but I've been reading this happened in many places, all the way back to the first one in Minnesota. I will agree to the notion that there are idiots on both sides, but the police STILL need to be held to a higher degree of responsibility especially when the protest is a reaction to their systemic problems. There are always going to be people and groups who take advantage of a crisis, but the Police are supposedly trained for this. They are supposed to de-escalate situations, not escalate them. A protest that causes non-violent disruption should not call for tear gas or rubber bullets. *Side note I didn't like getting tear gassed when we lost the Championship game vs. Maryland and I still don't like it now. It seems a bit overzealous to me.* This does NOT mean all police are bad....far from it, but many bad decisions were made this weekend. In Flint, we saw how these situations can be handled correctly - hearing listening and understanding goes a long way. They might not agree on everything but empathy is being shown. Maybe this can be tried first next time, if it doesn't work then reevaluate options. I feel like I can say all this and still support the police, still support the protestors, but not excuse the looters, property damage and groups looking to take advantage of situations for the sole purpose of causing chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 7 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: That flies in the face of the best information we have to this point, but okay, who do you think they are? Do you have a credible source that says it isn't white supremacists? If you say that it is antifa then let's walk through this logically... in order to have anti-fascists, you first must have fascists. We see this time and time again; Charlottesville is a great example. Clint Watts is one of the more respected voices in security in this country and a West Point grad, here are some of this thoughts... He goes into some other areas, but please understand if there is anything done by antifa it is necessarily a reaction to a fascists group. Anybody can call themselves anything. According to Minnesota's AG Keith Ellison, no one really knows who is doing it. NY Times article I would say both far right and far left agitators are involved. Two tools to achieve the same end result. Anarchy and chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said: Anybody can call themselves anything. According to Minnesota's AG Keith Ellison, no one really knows who is doing it. NY Times article I would say both far right and far left agitators are involved. Two tools to achieve the same end result. Anarchy and chaos. Just a single post ago you said it couldn't be white supremacists and now it's both sides.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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