Muddy River Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 13 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Please don't regret it. It makes a powerful statement. It's so easy to pass judgement and call people 'idiotically moronic' without facts or context. Personally, I have a great job and a nice life. But, while some may look at me and see 'privilege' and think I have no idea what it means to overcome, they would be wrong. My dad grew up in extreme poverty. He was one of 13 children and my grandfather made a living doing odd jobs. My mother grew up on a farm, and likewise had little money growing up. But, growing up with nothing did not stop my dad from working his butt off, instilling in his kids a a strong work ethic, and providing a better life for his family. As a parent, I've dealt with a life-threatening disease with one of my own children. And, I shared earlier the story of the woman I dated with the multi-racial children. So, no, I'm not sitting on a throne somewhere passing unfair judgment on people without having first hand knowledge of what they have had to overcome. My position is built solely on what is right and wrong, and without making excuses for behavior that is legally and morally wrong. Thanks 5. Like you, I've worked incredibly hard for the things I have, and if it makes me a monster to protect those things, then so be it. Boy, I really look forward to being silly and snarky again. Can't get here soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 hour ago, KoB2011 said: Those are still not their personal possessions. The business experience those damages and that really sucks, but it isn't that same as their personal possessions. My wife and I are both small business owners. You obviously are not. Our business assets are much more valuable than our personal possessions as they are the source of our livelihood. Take my sofas and tvs any day. Rob my business and decades of work and decades of future earnings are gone down the toilet. Homeowners insurance will replace stuff, their is no insurance to provide income and replace an asset if you go bankrupt. Not only do these businesses provide for our family, but for our employees and their families as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 @Hoosierhoopster if you are being carjacked, can you use deadly force on the assailant? Even if it is only a $2000 car? I believe in many cases you can. Shouldn't the law allow you to do the same for a $1million asset? For others-My local Walmart closed early today and had a squad car out front. As my Walmart generates the lion share of revenues for my small town, I'd hope the police would protect to benefit the members of the community who rely on it for their groceries and medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostin76 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 Happening right now at the Barclays Center. This might get bad. Too many cops and too many batons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass Cannon Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 22 minutes ago, Reacher said: @Hoosierhoopster if you are being carjacked, can you use deadly force on the assailant? Even if it is only a $2000 car? I believe in many cases you can. Shouldn't the law allow you to do the same for a $1million asset? For others-My local Walmart closed early today and had a squad car out front. As my Walmart generates the lion share of revenues for my small town, I'd hope the police would protect to benefit the members of the community who rely on it for their groceries and medicine. Pretty hard to car jack a person without force in fact pretty sure that’s why it’s a car jack and not a car theft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaybobHoosier Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Muddy River said: It says a lot about me? What knowledge about me have you gleaned from this thread? Have you figured out why I feel the way I do, or do you not care? Let me fill in some of the blanks. Many years ago, my grandfather (a WW2 vet for what it's worth) was closing up the family restaurant for the night. He was in his business, not his home. Someone came in and murdered him for a couple of hundred dollars. So, while you might find me repulsive for not having sympathy and compassion for the looters, my family history prevents me. My grandfather died, the business never reopened, and the case was never closed. All that he worked for was gone. Maybe if he had been armed things would be different today. Certainly if he had shot the intruder first things would be different. I don't hate humanity, but I do hate those that look to prey on others. So, judge me if you must, but know that nothing you say can change my past. Hate to hear that happened! Also, I am 100% behind you in your view point to protect a business or home. I’m sorry but if you break in somewhere, the owner has full authority to take action. If the looters just wouldn’t loot, then they wouldn’t get shot my owners. How hard is that logic to follow? Once again, hate to hear that about your grandpa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 Well, Louisville officials initially said that the violent protestors were from out of state, implying Louisville residents would never do such a thing to 'their' city. Turns out that is not the case. https://www.wave3.com/2020/05/31/early-records-show-majority-people-arrested-during-protests-are-louisville/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 2 hours ago, 5fouls said: Are you seriously defending looters and vandals? The police involved in Minneapolis should be arrested and charged appropriately. But, so should the people committing these other crimes. Let's stop making excuses for behavior on both sides. Being a policeman does not give one the right to kill someone. But, being feeling wronged by that action also does not give someone the right to destroy property that does not belong to them and that has nothing to do with the Minneapolis murder. No, I did not defend them. I am pointing out the massive difference in personal property and a businesses property. Are you really incapable of seeing the difference? You are all arguing that it is okay for a person to lose their life because a business has property damaged; it is absurd, terrifying and frankly, very bootlickerish of you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Muddy River said: It says a lot about me? What knowledge about me have you gleaned from this thread? Have you figured out why I feel the way I do, or do you not care? Let me fill in some of the blanks. Many years ago, my grandfather (a WW2 vet for what it's worth) was closing up the family restaurant for the night. He was in his business, not his home. Someone came in and murdered him for a couple of hundred dollars. So, while you might find me repulsive for not having sympathy and compassion for the looters, my family history prevents me. My grandfather died, the business never reopened, and the case was never closed. All that he worked for was gone. Maybe if he had been armed things would be different today. Certainly if he had shot the intruder first things would be different. I don't hate humanity, but I do hate those that look to prey on others. So, judge me if you must, but know that nothing you say can change my past. That's a tragic story, and I appreciate you sharing your perspective, but it is still not okay to value property over people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 46 minutes ago, Reacher said: @Hoosierhoopster if you are being carjacked, can you use deadly force on the assailant? Even if it is only a $2000 car? I believe in many cases you can. Shouldn't the law allow you to do the same for a $1million asset? For others-My local Walmart closed early today and had a squad car out front. As my Walmart generates the lion share of revenues for my small town, I'd hope the police would protect to benefit the members of the community who rely on it for their groceries and medicine. If it is a personal asset, sure. Businesses are not personal possessions. My wife owns a small business, I get how personal they are, but they aren't personal property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 minute ago, KoB2011 said: I find you to be heinous because you think it is worth killing someone over property, not because you don't have sympathy for looters. Disagreeing with someone is okay. Calling them 'heinous' because they disagree with you is crossing the line. Doing it to someone that shared a very personal and relevant story related to the discussion is truly disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 U of L assistant basketball coach is arrested while protesting. https://www.whas11.com/article/sports/university-of-louisville-mens-basketball-assistant-among-dozens-arrested-during-breonna-taylor-protests/417-33179677-7c4d-45e4-97b8-908b6dc66c25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 Just now, 5fouls said: Disagreeing with someone is okay. Calling them 'heinous' because they disagree with you is crossing the line. Doing it to someone that shared a very personal and relevant story related to the discussion is truly disappointing. I changed my post upon reflection, but you and many others are defending killing people over inanimate objects. Imagine someone killing your child because they stole something; unless you are advocating that it would be an acceptable reaction then you shouldn't advocate that it's acceptable for other people's children. Young people do stupid things, they don't deserve to die for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 51 minutes ago, Reacher said: @Hoosierhoopster if you are being carjacked, can you use deadly force on the assailant? Even if it is only a $2000 car? I believe in many cases you can. Shouldn't the law allow you to do the same for a $1million asset? For others-My local Walmart closed early today and had a squad car out front. As my Walmart generates the lion share of revenues for my small town, I'd hope the police would protect to benefit the members of the community who rely on it for their groceries and medicine. Car jacking - you’re in the car - can be a direct threat on your person. And it usually happens with deadly force, someone doesn’t just jump in your car and ask you to get out. That’s an entirely different crime. And the value of your car is completely irrelevant if you want to make this more apples to apples. You see someone break your truck’s window and get in to steal it. You run out of the store you were in and shoot him. You’re now a murderer and you will be convicted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 Just now, KoB2011 said: I changed my post upon reflection, but you and many others are defending killing people over inanimate objects. Imagine someone killing your child because they stole something; unless you are advocating that it would be an acceptable reaction then you shouldn't advocate that it's acceptable for other people's children. Young people do stupid things, they don't deserve to die for it. Review my posts. Nowhere did I say that someone should kill a looter. What I said was the business owner had a right to protect their property and take action to protect it. My primary position here is that the looters and vandals are wrong, should be punished, and we should not be making excuses for what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 19 minutes ago, JaybobHoosier said: Hate to hear that happened! Also, I am 100% behind you in your view point to protect a business or home. I’m sorry but if you break in somewhere, the owner has full authority to take action. If the looters just wouldn’t loot, then they wouldn’t get shot my owners. How hard is that logic to follow? Once again, hate to hear that about your grandpa! No the owner does not have full authority to take action if by action you mean shoot someone. That’s called murder. Come on already man. If you want, go look up the law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 Just now, 5fouls said: Review my posts. Nowhere did I say that someone should kill a looter. What I said was the business owner had a right to protect their property and take action to protect it. My primary position here is that the looters and vandals are wrong, should be punished, and we should not be making excuses for what they are doing. I haven't seen anyone make an excuse for that. I think we all agree that the looters are wrong. However, I've seen you say very little to rebuke those calling for death to looters (which was what my post was in response to and what I called heinous) and ive seen you say very little to care for addressing the systemic racism and injustice in this country. Your primary concern has been to call out the looters, which from all reports, the biggest problem with that is not the BLM movement but is white supremacists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 22 minutes ago, JaybobHoosier said: Hate to hear that happened! Also, I am 100% behind you in your view point to protect a business or home. I’m sorry but if you break in somewhere, the owner has full authority to take action. If the looters just wouldn’t loot, then they wouldn’t get shot my owners. How hard is that logic to follow? Once again, hate to hear that about your grandpa! Should they have murdered Jesus in the temple, then? He damaged the business owners property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 Full stop: if you're advocating it is okay to kill someone over a property crime, you better be okay with someone doing that to your kid. Would any of you say your kid was not murdered if they got shot for trespassing at a business? What about for shoplifting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: I changed my post upon reflection, but you and many others are defending killing people over inanimate objects. Imagine someone killing your child because they stole something; unless you are advocating that it would be an acceptable reaction then you shouldn't advocate that it's acceptable for other people's children. Young people do stupid things, they don't deserve to die for it. Honestly, if my child dies because he's drinking and driving, I'm not going to blame the ones that sold him the drinks. If my child dies of a heroin overdose, I'm not going to blame those that sold him the drug. And, if my child takes a lethal weapon into a 7-Eleven to commit a robbery, I'm not going to blame anyone else if he is harmed. I would be devastated if any of those things happened, and I may blame myself for not raising him right, but shifting the blame to others is a cop-out. Bottom line is store and restaurant owners in Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, Louisville, Atlanta, New York, etc. did not kill George Floyd, yet they are paying the price for it. That is an injustice too.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 minute ago, 5fouls said: Honestly, if my child dies because he's drinking and driving, I'm not going to blame the ones that sold him the drinks. If my child dies of a heroin overdose, I'm not going to blame those that sold him the drug. And, if my child takes a lethal weapon into a 7-Eleven to commit a robbery, I'm not going to blame anyone else if he is harmed. I would be devastated if any of those things happened, and I may blame myself for not raising him right, but shifting the blame to others is a cop-out. Bottom line is store and restaurant owners in Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, Louisville, Atlanta, New York, etc. did not kill George Floyd, yet they are paying the price for it. That is an injustice too.. Don't put the weapon qualifier on it and answer the question as those in this thread have said should happen to the looters; there is no weapon involved in the question, it's just a property crime they are advocating be a death sentence not a violent crime. Should your child die for a property crime? If not, please stop defending people saying that heinous thing in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 8 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: Full stop: if you're advocating it is okay to kill someone over a property crime, you better be okay with someone doing that to your kid. Would any of you say your kid was not murdered if they got shot for trespassing at a business? What about for shoplifting? What is going on in cities across America is not trespassing or shoplifting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Muddy River said: While I appreciate everyone's sympathies, I really don't want to make this about me or my personal tragedy. I felt compelled to share after reading the comment above, and KOB's "It says a lot about you" post. I'm already regretting I brought it up. I am sorry for what happened, that’s an awful story. i hope you don’t think I said anything to minimize that. In this discussion we’re all having, though, we are talking about defending property, business property, with deadly force. The person who does so does not get to bring his or his family’s past up to justify shooting someone. Either a person has a reasonable basis to use deadly force, to kill, or they don’t. Defending your business property is not a defense to shooting someone. Being under a reasonable threat of real violence can be, for self defense. It’s not about being a monster, it’s what the law recognizes as grounds for an individual to shoot someone. We don’t live in the Wild West. If your business is broken into you get the police to do their job and you look to insurance. That is the law, and it’s because we don’t want people shooting people, taking life, without actual good cause Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 9 minutes ago, 5fouls said: What is going on in cities across America is not trespassing or shoplifting. Answer the question; does your child deserve to die for a property crime regardless of any threat of violence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted June 1, 2020 Report Share Posted June 1, 2020 16 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: No the owner does not have full authority to take action if by action you mean shoot someone. That’s called murder. Come on already man. If you want, go look up the law A guy goes into a business with a weapon.... gun, hammer, knife, take your pick. Robber tells the store owner to give him all the money in the cash register, Store owner says to robber, "Just take the money, please don't hurt me". Store owner realizes the robber is not wearing a mask and recognizes him as a kid from the neighborhood. Robber has not announced or even indicated in any way that he would harm the store owner. But, given that the owner recognizes the robber, there is a good chance the robber will. At what point in this scenario does the 'property crime' cross the imaginary line where it is okay for the store owner to pull his own weapon and defend himself. Is that after he is dead? Defeats the purpose right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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