Does the B1G need to be fixed? How?

[tdhoosier]

This has been on my mind lately and I thought it may be a good topic for discussion. To a certain degree Our success is tied to the B1G’s success. While the B1G is a strong conference from top to bottom in basketball, there are two major issues:

1. The top recruits don’t want to play in our conference. 
2. Nobody has won an NC in almost 20 years.

The question is why? (Or feel free to argue that the conference is fine the way it is)

We’ve touched on many of the issues plaguing the conference on this board. It’s too physical. The refs let us beat each other up. The style of play is too slow.

So what do you think? Is it the officiating? Is the rest of the league adapting to Izzo and Gard?  Is it the absence of IU’s presence at the top of the polls? All of the above? 

What’s it going to take for the B1G to get more top recruits and more NC’s?

[BGleas]

I think the national title thing is overblown. The Big Ten is consistently one of the top 2-3 conferences in the country and oftentimes the best. While I don't have the numbers sitting in front of me, I'd guess that the Big Ten stacks up very favorably when you look at Final Four, Elite 8 and Sweet Sixteen apperances over the last 20 years. Of course you want to ultimately get over the hump and win a national title, I don't think it's really that huge a deal right now. 

To your post though, I think the officiating and the pace of play are probably the two biggest issues. I can't really compare it to other conferences as I don't follow them as closely, but I find the officiating in the Big Ten to be downright atrocious. The refs let the game go way too physical, are extremely inconsistent, and while refs in most every league tend to slant to the home team for whatever reason I think it's worse in the Big Ten. 

Finally, I do think you have a point with IU. While the glean is certainly fading, IU is still the Big Ten's most historic basketball program and it does not serve the conference well to have IU basically a middle of the pack team on average over the last 20 years. The conference is better from a visibility/exposure standpoint when IU is in the discussion at the top. 

[IU Scott]

44 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

This has been on my mind lately and I thought it may be a good topic for discussion. To a certain degree Our success is tied to the B1G’s success. While the B1G is a strong conference from top to bottom in basketball, there are two major issues:

1. The top recruits don’t want to play in our conference. 
2. Nobody has won an NC in almost 20 years.

The question is why? (Or feel free to argue that the conference is fine the way it is)

We’ve touched on many of the issues plaguing the conference on this board. It’s too physical. The refs let us beat each other up. The style of play is too slow.

So what do you think? Is it the officiating? Is the rest of the league adapting to Izzo and Gard?  Is it the absence of IU’s presence at the top of the polls? All of the above? 

What’s it going to take for the B1G to get more top recruits and more NC’s?

It is to physical and most of the conference is built around defense.  Most teams play s half Court offense and not a free flowing offense that top players want to play in.

[btownqb]

Officiating is awful. Fran and Izzo are annoying. Chambers has been less annoying. 

I want 8 conference games and not 9 and let's go play UK. Oh wait this is basketball, sigh. 

[IU Scott]

34 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I think the national title thing is overblown. The Big Ten is consistently one of the top 2-3 conferences in the country and oftentimes the best. While I don't have the numbers sitting in front of me, I'd guess that the Big Ten stacks up very favorably when you look at Final Four, Elite 8 and Sweet Sixteen apperances over the last 20 years. Of course you want to ultimately get over the hump and win a national title, I don't think it's really that huge a deal right now. 

To your post though, I think the officiating and the pace of play are probably the two biggest issues. I can't really compare it to other conferences as I don't follow them as closely, but I find the officiating in the Big Ten to be downright atrocious. The refs let the game go way too physical, are extremely inconsistent, and while refs in most every league tend to slant to the home team for whatever reason I think it's worse in the Big Ten. 

Finally, I do think you have a point with IU. While the glean is certainly fading, IU is still the Big Ten's most historic basketball program and it does not serve the conference well to have IU basically a middle of the pack team on average over the last 20 years. The conference is better from a visibility/exposure standpoint when IU is in the discussion at the top. 

I wish the NCAA would hire full time refs and they are the ones who assign refs to every game.  I watch a lot of other conferences and the refs are pretty bad everywhere.  I think the refs work to many games in a week and that hurts their performance.  Right now they are independent contractors and they try to get as many games as they can do they can make money.

[tdhoosier]

34 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I think the national title thing is overblown. The Big Ten is consistently one of the top 2-3 conferences in the country and oftentimes the best. While I don't have the numbers sitting in front of me, I'd guess that the Big Ten stacks up very favorably when you look at Final Four, Elite 8 and Sweet Sixteen apperances over the last 20 years. Of course you want to ultimately get over the hump and win a national title, I don't think it's really that huge a deal right now. 

To your post though, I think the officiating and the pace of play are probably the two biggest issues. I can't really compare it to other conferences as I don't follow them as closely, but I find the officiating in the Big Ten to be downright atrocious. The refs let the game go way too physical, are extremely inconsistent, and while refs in most every league tend to slant to the home team for whatever reason I think it's worse in the Big Ten. 

Finally, I do think you have a point with IU. While the glean is certainly fading, IU is still the Big Ten's most historic basketball program and it does not serve the conference well to have IU basically a middle of the pack team on average over the last 20 years. The conference is better from a visibility/exposure standpoint when IU is in the discussion at the top. 

I hear you and I do go back and forth to whether or not the lack of championships is an anomaly or we're not getting those big time uber athletic recruits to get us over the hump. Basketball championships in particular are defined by the greats: Kobe, Jordan, Bird, Lebron, Curry. Not sure how much that translates to College but off hand i can remember guys like Anthony Davis, Tyus Jones, Kyle Guy (who wasn't a top ten recruit, but still up there) carrying their teams on their backs. 

[Euroclydon]

I don't see an issue with the B1G. In fact, I'd say it is one of the deepest and strongest in the country. If they were not getting to the championship game that would be one thing, but that is not the case. 

They have sent 8 teams to the championship game in the past 20 years. That's 40%. They just failed to win it, with the one exception being MSU. So basically, they were a game away from the title several times.

2018 UM

2015 UW

2013 UM

2009 MSU

2007 OSU

2005 IL

2002 IU - lost to Maryland but the Terps were not in the B1G at the time.

2000 MSU (won)

[tdhoosier]

10 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I wish the NCAA would hire full time refs and they are the ones who assign refs to every game.  I watch a lot of other conferences and the refs are pretty bad everywhere.  I think the refs work to many games in a week and that hurts their performance.  Right now they are independent contractors and they try to get as many games as they can do they can make money.

Yeah, I think CBB has a problem with refs overall. Not sure if they were somehow 'ordered' to call games tighter it'd be the magic cure. But perhaps a start. That said, there will be some coaches who'd lobby hard against this.

I defeinitely can't deny that B1G teams go into the tournament at a disadvantage of our own making - having to adapt to the officiating. 

[dbmhoosier]

18 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Officiating is awful. Fran and Izzo are annoying. Chambers has been less annoying. 

I want 8 conference games and not 9 and let's go play UK. Oh wait this is basketball, sigh. 

Agreed about the officiating.  The amount of home cooking that's allowed in the B1G is ridiculous.  I'd be curious to know how often the home team wins in the B1G games vs other conferences. 

[IUFLA]

1 minute ago, Euroclydon said:

I don't see an issue with the B1G. In fact, I'd say it is one of the deepest and strongest in the country. If they were not getting to the championship game that would be one thing, but that is not the case. 

They have sent 8 teams to the championship game in the past 20 years. That's 40%. They just failed to win it, with the one exception being MSU. So basically, they were a game away from the title several times.

2018 UM

2015 UW

2013 UM

2009 MSU

2007 OSU

2005 IL

2002 IU - lost to Maryland but the Terps were not in the B1G at the time.

2000 MSU (won)

B10 has been to the second most Final 4s in that period too...13...behind only the ACC (14)...

So I don't see a real problem...

I agree officiating does work against the B10 in the tournament.

It does seem the conference has struggled pulling top talent the last 2 years, but I think that directly correlates with the amount of upper class men and experience the B10 has. They weren't the toughest conference by chance last year...

[tdhoosier]

From a recruiting standpoint - Top 20 recruits the B1G has gotten in the last 10 years:

2020: none
2021: none
2018: Romeo and Jalen Smith
2017: Jaren Jackson
2016: Miles Bridges
2015: Diamond Stone, Caleb Swanigan and Thomas Bryant
2014: JBJ
2013: Noah Vonleh
2012: Sam Dekker and Yogi
2011: Cody and Branden Dawsen

Not saying top 20 recruits are the end all be all, but that's 13 out of 200 players or 6.5% of top 20 recruits available. On the flip side, it says a lot about the strength of our coaching and programs. 
 

Edit: fixed

[milehiiu]

College Basketball Conference Power Rankings: Why the Big Ten was the best league in the nation - CBSSports.com

[Steubenhoosier]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the B1G. I do think this topic though could be melded with the thread talking about how long we are willing to wait for a coach to win his first national title.

The conference currently is broken down this way--

Established coaches--

Izzo--whatever you feel about him,his teams are almost always relevant come tournament time

Painter, Fran, Gard , Turgeon and Chambers...all average at best.

Fairly new to the program and just getting established...

Pikiell, Holtman, Miller, Hoiberg, Howard, and Underwood.

Just plain bad..

Pitino

Will never have a chance..

Collins.

Other than Michigan St., the conference just does not have a guy in charge who combines the attributes of being good and longevity to develop a culture. I do believe that at least one of the guys in the second category (hoping CAM obviously) will get there, but it takes time. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stlboiler23]

28 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with the B1G. I do think this topic though could be melded with the thread talking about how long we are willing to wait for a coach to win his first national title.

The conference currently is broken down this way--

Established coaches--

Izzo--whatever you feel about him,his teams are almost always relevant come tournament time

Painter, Fran, Gard , Turgeon and Chambers...all average at best.

Fairly new to the program and just getting established...

Pikiell, Holtman, Miller, Hoiberg, Howard, and Underwood.

Just plain bad..

Pitino

Will never have a chance..

Collins.

Other than Michigan St., the conference just does not have a guy in charge who combines the attributes of being good and longevity to develop a culture. I do believe that at least one of the guys in the second category (hoping CAM obviously) will get there, but it takes time. 

 

 

 

 

 

Don’t think Painter belongs in that category with Fran, Chambers, Gard, and Turgeon. If he’s only considered average at best, only a small handful of coaches in college basketball are above average. I know I’m biased but Painter is above average IMO. 

[thirdgenhoosier]

18 minutes ago, Stlboiler23 said:

Don’t think Painter belongs in that category with Fran, Chambers, Gard, and Turgeon. If he’s only considered average at best, only a small handful of coaches in college basketball are above average. I know I’m biased but Painter is above average IMO. 

I don’t think the point of this is really where each coach should be ranked.  I think the point is that the conference only has one elite coach.  JMO

[Stlboiler23]

3 minutes ago, thirdgenhoosier said:

I don’t think the point of this is really where each coach should be ranked.  I think the point is that the conference only has one elite coach.  JMO

I think that’s fair. Beilein was right up there of course. 

[IU Scott]

5 minutes ago, Sark said:

Making them full time employees would create a mass exodus of current officials. Careful what you wish for.

Why would that be because if you paid them well and with benefits they wouldn't need another job.  In the off season they could work on their craft by doing camps or whatever they need to do to get better.  Also I'm the off season they can work with the NCAA and the conferences on making the game better.

[Steubenhoosier]

27 minutes ago, Stlboiler23 said:

Don’t think Painter belongs in that category with Fran, Chambers, Gard, and Turgeon. If he’s only considered average at best, only a small handful of coaches in college basketball are above average. I know I’m biased but Painter is above average IMO. 

This has been hashed out on here many times. From a national championship standpoint, which I believe is the focus of this thread, he is average, at best

[IU Scott]

7 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

This has been hashed out on here many times. From a national championship standpoint, which I believe is the focus of this thread, he is average, at best

I think our fan base is the only people who would consider Painter as just a average coach.  I looked at some websites ranking coaches and most had Painter in the top 25. One site who ranked college coaches men and women together had Painter at 20th.

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, dbmhoosier said:

Agreed about the officiating.  The amount of home cooking that's allowed in the B1G is ridiculous.  I'd be curious to know how often the home team wins in the B1G games vs other conferences. 

I'd be curious 

1) how many times the home team wins in the B1G vs. other conferences, leaving out IU

2) how many times IU wins as the home team vs. other home teams in the B1G. And if there were a way to factor it in, the foul discrepancy between the teams.

I have the strong impression that IU has been hosed by the refs in B1G play for a while now. Which is bizarre, and maybe not accurate as I am a bball obsessed fan, but man that's my impression.

[IU Scott]

5 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I'd be curious 

1) how many times the home team wins in the B1G vs. other conferences, leaving out IU

2) how many times IU wins as the home team vs. other home teams in the B1G. And if there were a way to factor it in, the foul discrepancy between the teams.

I have the strong impression that IU has been hosed by the refs in B1G play for a while now. Which is bizarre, and maybe not accurate as I am a bball obsessed fan, but man that's my impression.

Maybe they are sticking it to IU for how bad RMK treated officials for all of those years.  Watching all of these old games with out any bias makes you realize how many calls IU use to get.

[BGleas]

4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Maybe they are sticking it to IU for how bad RMK treated officials for all of those years.  Watching all of these old games with out any bias makes you realize how many calls IU use to get.

I really doubt it. Bob Knight has been gone for 20 years. I could be wrong, but I can't imagine there are too many people still around the conference trying to stick it to IU because of Bob Knight. 

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I really doubt it. Bob Knight has been gone for 20 years. I could be wrong, but I can't imagine there are too many people still around the conference trying to stick it to IU because of Bob Knight. 

It was a joke but we did get a lot of calls back then

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

From a recruiting standpoint - Top 20 recruits the B1G has gotten in the last 10 years:

2020: none
2021: none
2018: Romeo and Jalen Smith
2017: Jaren Jackson
2016: Miles Bridges
2015: Diamond Stone and Thomas Bryant
2014: JBJ
2013: Noah Vonleh
2012: Sam Dekker and Yogi
2011: Cody and Branden Dawsen

Not saying top 20 recruits are the end all be all, but that's 12 out of 200 players or .06% of top 20 recruits available. On the flip side, it says a lot about the strength of our coaching and programs. 
 

That's 6% for my math major friends, not .06%. The point still stands though. Athletic, dynamic players don't want to be clobbered by some Wisconsin goon while a ref stands there swallowing his whistle.

Here is the BIG officiating formula in a nutshell:

1) No-calls on hard fouls for the first 8-12 minutes of a half.

2) The "Oh sh&$ we haven't called anything" over correction to calling a bunch of ticky-tack fouls for the next 8-12 minutes so teams get into the bonus .

3) The over correction to all the ticky-tack fouls, back to calling nothing the last 1-2 minutes.

It's maddening because the same refs who call Big Ten games will then work an ACC game and have a totally different, evenhanded approach. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, Stlboiler23 said:

Don’t think Painter belongs in that category with Fran, Chambers, Gard, and Turgeon. If he’s only considered average at best, only a small handful of coaches in college basketball are above average. I know I’m biased but Painter is above average IMO. 

I'd agree. I don't consider Painter to be an exceptional coach, he's not a championship-contending coach (imo), but his track record is above-average.