btownqb Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 Just now, IU/Butler/Notre Dame said: I’m talking this years full schedule SC played: 24, 32, 52, 58, 61, 90, 229 in the tourney FWBH played: 57, 59, 75, 125, 184, 265, 309 in the tourney Furst is remember for his state championships. Their paths to the state championships are infinitely different in difficulty. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 4 minutes ago, IU/Butler/Notre Dame said: To describe the difference between the two the way you did lacks objectivity ...I’m a brown guy but coming in I had trey and Caleb neck and neck with brown third and barnhizer fourth ...thats evaluating not only from my personal thoughts but how I thought people would consider career accomplishments and vote ....if you were thinking it was clearly trey and brown didn’t belong in the convo yeah I think you’re not being objective .....you can’t argue both sides and say it’s so important to have state championships and that’s such an important factor but then also turn around and say TK stats suffered because he had two stud D1 teammates and could have had a third ....to me that means he didn’t have as much to do with the state championships and I don’t think arguing that way is fair to tk ....what I honestly think is that it shook out close to how it’s should with the exception that I felt brown barnhizer and Furst were fighting for more of the same votes than TK was so the takeaway I have is that voters put a ton of emphasis on the championship game performance of Furst and tk I've been plenty objective. Again.. TK doesn't need to feel fortunate for being 3rd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 Don't look at me...I'm just waiting for a haircut... 💈 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 5 minutes ago, 5fouls said: It is worth noting that in this season's tournament run, Kaufman had against two other D1 big men. LT Hatton and Blake Sisley. Did Furst face anyone of equal size and similar ability in either of his state tournament runs. Oh geez. You saying they grow 'em bigger down on the farm? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU/Butler/Notre Dame Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 8 minutes ago, 5fouls said: It is worth noting that in this season's tournament run, Kaufman had against two other D1 big men. LT Hatton and Blake Sisley. Did Furst face anyone of equal size and similar ability in either of his state tournament runs. I like this point ...he played the kid from churrabusvo ( 6’7 if that counts ) but semi state vs Blackford and state vs park heritage were small kids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU/Butler/Notre Dame Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Knowing Trey, he will use it for motivation. Which may end up being more valuable out of curiosity since you are close to the situation I’m curious if he and Caleb get along well? They did not play on the same AAU team… Is this a competitive thing with these two or is it more a friendly whatever type of thing Edited April 16, 2021 by IU/Butler/Notre Dame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, rico said: Oh geez. You saying they grow 'em bigger down on the farm? lol SC is NOT the farm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, rico said: Oh geez. You saying they grow 'em bigger down on the farm? I'm saying both of those guys are going to play D1 ball. Did Caleb Furst face another D1 center 6'8" or taller, on his way to the state championship. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU/Butler/Notre Dame Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 9 minutes ago, btownqb said: SC played: 24, 32, 52, 58, 61, 90, 229 in the tourney FWBH played: 57, 59, 75, 125, 184, 265, 309 in the tourney Furst is remember for his state championships. Their paths to the state championships are infinitely different in difficulty. I had Kaufman ahead of Furst for the record but while those rankings subjectively are correct also shouldn’t we factor in that SC won almost all those games in nail bite fashion while Blackhawk won by 18-50 points in dominating fashion ? I’m not discrediting your point I’m just saying I don’t think your considering both sides it was an incredibly equal comparison .....I will say I saw Furst live 4 times and I wasn’t impressed I thr first three including the hall to frame classic this year he did look a little better at semi state but Blackfords tallest kid is like 6’3 so he should look impressive ...second half of thr state championship game is first time I felt like I saw him try to take over and that stood out even though again they were smaller opponents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 Just now, IU/Butler/Notre Dame said: I had Kaufman ahead of Furst for the record but while those rankings subjectively are correct also shouldn’t we factor in that SC won almost all those games in nail bite fashion while Blackhawk won by 18-50 points in dominating fashion ? I’m not discrediting your point I’m just saying I don’t think your considering both sides it was an incredibly equal comparison .....I will say I saw Furst live 4 times and I wasn’t impressed I thr first three including the hall to frame classic this year he did look a little better at semi state but Blackfords tallest kid is like 6’3 so he should look impressive ...second half of thr state championship game is first time I felt like I saw him try to take over and that stood out even though again they were smaller opponents Man... again... I had no problem with Furst winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU/Butler/Notre Dame Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 10 minutes ago, btownqb said: I've been plenty objective. Again.. TK doesn't need to feel fortunate for being 3rd. Not if that’s your comment ....fortunate may not be the right word but if you were expecting massive separation in the top four you weren’t being realistic ....I’m shocked there was the gap there was between Furst and tk, I assumed they would all be in the 5-10 vote difference range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, 5fouls said: I'm saying both of those guys are going to play D1 ball. Did Caleb Furst face another D1 center 6'8" or taller, on his way to the state championship. That has nothing to do with it but get your point. I will respond the best way I can...if, and IF there was single class basketball. Caleb Furst would have never won a sectional. I will also say that if Blackhawk was a member of Fort Wane's SAC conference, he would have never won a conference title. Class basketball created what Blackhawk has done for the last 4 years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 (edited) I have to wonder if Silver Creek had gone undefeated, which many people thought was possible at the beginning of the season, would the vote have been different. Not making excuses, but here are SCs losses Lost to North Harrison on the road in OT without Kaufman. North Harrison has a D1 big man in Hatton. Lost to Blackhawk on a neutral court in Double OT without Kaufman. Blackhawk has a D1 big man in Furst. Lost to Bloomington South on the road without Branden Northern, who missed the game with a broken hand. Lost to New Albany on the road. All key players started the game, but this is the game that Northern broke his hand in. I'm comfortable in saying they would have won the first three without the injuries. They probably would have lost New Albany regardless of the injury to Northern, because they just played bad that game. But, I do wonder if an undefeated two time 3A champion would have trumped a two time 2A/1A champion, especially if both head to head meetings had gone in Kaufman's team's favor. Edited April 16, 2021 by 5fouls 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU/Butler/Notre Dame Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 1 minute ago, rico said: That has nothing to do with it but get your point. I will respond the best way I can...if, and IF there was single class basketball. Caleb Furst would have never won a sectional. I will also say that if Blackhawk was a member of Fort Wane's SAC conference, he would have never won a conference title. Class basketball created what Blackhawk has done for the last 4 years. Mostly agree but I’m not AS sure ....I watched Blackhawk and homestead this year and it could have gone either way ...they played every other Fort Wayne school as well and other than an oddly close one with dwenger Blackhawk dominated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU/Butler/Notre Dame Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 1 minute ago, 5fouls said: I have to wonder if Silver Creek had gone undefeated, which many people thought was possible at the beginning of the season, would the vote have been different. Not making excuses, but here are SCs losses Lost to North Harrison on the road in OT without Kaufman. North Harrison has a D1 big man in Hatton. Lost to Blackhawk on the road in Double OT without Kaufman. Blackhawk has a D1 big man in Furst. Lost to Bloomington South on the road without Branden Northern, who missed the game with a broken hand. Lost to New Albany on the road. All key players started the game, but this is the game that Northern broke his hand in. I'm comfortable in saying they would have won the first three without the injuries. They probably would have lost New Albany regardless of the injury to Northern, because they just played bad that game. But, I do wonder if an undefeated two time 3A champion would have trumped a two time 2A/1A champion, especially if both head to head meetings had gone in Kaufman's team's favor. I honestly think what I take from the vote is they penalized trey for Jacobi playing so well I think it overshadowed him enough to sway voters that had them neck and neck Which I think everyone did have them neck and neck so that gave a justification to put one slightly ahead of the other… I also think you are correct they gone undefeated it would’ve been impossible not to vote for tray kind of like if Brown had beat Bailey he would’ve probably suede enough votes to make a difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 This stuff always comes up with MVP talk etc. Is the award for the best basketball player in the state as demonstrated this year or for the most valuable player? It's difficult to say with schedules and opponents being so different but I think measuring a kid versus similar opponents and against similar level competition has to be considered. I'll defer to those that watched first hand. One thing for sure...it couldn't help that Trey missed/and was recovering from an injury a good portion of the year....and also Jacobi was such a HUGE portion of that teams identity and success. I didn't watch anything first hand but I didn't expect Trey to be in the top 3 because he really wasn't relevant a good portion of the season. I didn't follow Barnhizer that closely because he hadn't been mentioned a lot but he put up one heck of a season it looked like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU/Butler/Notre Dame Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 1 minute ago, dgambill said: This stuff always comes up with MVP talk etc. Is the award for the best basketball player in the state as demonstrated this year or for the most valuable player? It's difficult to say with schedules and opponents being so different but I think measuring a kid versus similar opponents and against similar level competition has to be considered. I'll defer to those that watched first hand. One thing for sure...it couldn't help that Trey missed/and was recovering from an injury a good portion of the year....and also Jacobi was such a HUGE portion of that teams identity and success. I didn't watch anything first hand but I didn't expect Trey to be in the top 3 because he really wasn't relevant a good portion of the season. I didn't follow Barnhizer that closely because he hadn't been mentioned a lot but he put up one heck of a season it looked like. I agree any other year barnhizer would have been talked about non stop and I’m frustrated we didn’t put time into bringing him here 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 Just now, IU/Butler/Notre Dame said: Mostly agree but I’m not AS sure ....I watched Blackhawk and homestead this year and it could have gone either way ...they played every other Fort Wayne school as well and other than an oddly close one with dwenger Blackhawk dominated Meh. Furst was a man amongst boys but he can't play 5 positions. He was/is a one man team at Blackhawk no different than Luke at Blackford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 3 minutes ago, dgambill said: This stuff always comes up with MVP talk etc. Is the award for the best basketball player in the state as demonstrated this year or for the most valuable player? It's difficult to say with schedules and opponents being so different but I think measuring a kid versus similar opponents and against similar level competition has to be considered. I'll defer to those that watched first hand. One thing for sure...it couldn't help that Trey missed/and was recovering from an injury a good portion of the year....and also Jacobi was such a HUGE portion of that teams identity and success. I didn't watch anything first hand but I didn't expect Trey to be in the top 3 because he really wasn't relevant a good portion of the season. I didn't follow Barnhizer that closely because he hadn't been mentioned a lot but he put up one heck of a season it looked like. I can see the Jacobi factor going both ways. On one hand, he's an extra mouth to feed with points and boards. Without him out there, Trey would have averaged Mid 30's in points and 15-17 rebounds. On the other hand, having Jacobi out there also gives the other team someone else to worry about. So, while Trey was constantly double and triple teamed, the opponent's best defender was often guarding Jacobi. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 5 minutes ago, rico said: Meh. Furst was a man amongst boys but he can't play 5 positions. He was/is a one man team at Blackhawk no different than Luke at Blackford. Zane Burke is a good basketball player. Blackhawk may have been a two man team, but definitely not a one man show. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU/Butler/Notre Dame Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 6 minutes ago, rico said: Meh. Furst was a man amongst boys but he can't play 5 positions. He was/is a one man team at Blackhawk no different than Luke at Blackford. I’ll slightly disagree ...too to bottom the supporting cast is very solid but specifically Zane Burke is a tough guard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 Just now, 5fouls said: I can see the Jacobi factor going both ways. On one hand, he's an extra mouth to feed with points and boards. Without him out there, Trey would have averaged Mid 30's in points and 15-17 rebounds. On the other hand, having Jacobi out there also gives the other team someone else to worry about. So, while Trey was constantly double and triple teamed, the opponent's best defender was often guarding Jacobi. No..what I mean is the kid is such a dominant force and imposes such a strong reaction when watching the game that it takes away what people are watching and in paying attention to what Trey is doing. All I know is every game I watched on the internet...I go in looking for Trey...I try to focus on what he is doing and every time.....I come away thinking....DANG that Jacobi kid is good!! That kid a WINNER. He kinda has this aura around him when he is playing that can and does at times over shadow even a super talented D1 Gatorade player of the year....and that is wow! That has to effect the voting....you are watching game tape and film and trying to decide on a player of the year and at the same time all you do is keep coming away impressed with this other kid on the floor that isn't even in the discussion. So you naturally bias your decision for Furst because he isn't being distracted from in the same way. Add that to the fact Trey missed a decent chunk of the season...does it play a factor??? I gotta think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU/Butler/Notre Dame Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 12 minutes ago, rico said: Meh. Furst was a man amongst boys but he can't play 5 positions. He was/is a one man team at Blackhawk no different than Luke at Blackford. He was for a lot of the tourney for sure but in season they played all the Fort Wayne schools and destroyed them they played homestead to a one possession game and had to start fouling around the two minute mark when they fell behind 5 they also played big Indy schools and a prep school that had huge kids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU/Butler/Notre Dame Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 1 minute ago, dgambill said: No..what I mean is the kid is such a dominant force and imposes such a strong reaction when watching the game that it takes away what people are watching and in paying attention to what Trey is doing. All I know is every game I watched on the internet...I go in looking for Trey...I try to focus on what he is doing and every time.....I come away thinking....DANG that Jacobi kid is good!! That kid a WINNER. He kinda has this aura around him when he is playing that can and does at times over shadow even a super talented D1 Gatorade player of the year....and that is wow! That has to effect the voting....you are watching game tape and film and trying to decide on a player of the year and at the same time all you do is keep coming away impressed with this other kid on the floor that isn't even in the discussion. So you naturally bias your decision for Furst because he isn't being distracted from in the same way. Add that to the fact Trey missed a decent chunk of the season...does it play a factor??? I gotta think so. I’ve only watched handful of creek games and I was very impressed with trey but I had this same reaction ....went to the south port tourney a couple years back and my Buddy said the exact same “ who is that Jacobi kid ?!” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 6 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Zane Burke is a good basketball player. Blackhawk may have been a two man team, but definitely not a one man show. For 4 years, count them, 4. The Braves road the coat tails of Caleb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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