New approach/offense in 2020-21

[The Daily Hoosier]

There were several allusions to playing smaller, and a new offense last night.  It isn't clear what exactly to expect schematically, but a three forward lineup with three guys who can't score away from the basket seems like a thing of the past.

https://www.thedailyhoosier.com/iu-basketball-with-a-roster-full-of-his-guys-archie-miller-sees-a-new-look-team-and-new-look-offense/

[DWB]

I have a sneaky suspicion that the "new offense" that Rob mentioned in the presser, was a whole lot more than just a few more ball screens, that he stated when asked about the "new offense". I got the feeling Rob just kind of minimized his comment in order to keep from divulging any specifics. You don't call a couple more ball screens a "new offense".

Maybe, just maybe we'll see some off the ball screens, and god forbid, a little motion offense , or something that resembles more motion and screening to get guys open.

Hopefully we'll get to see it, if they don't call off the season.

[BGleas]

44 minutes ago, Sark said:

I think the new offense will be IU’s version of small ball. They’ll go three guards most of the time, with a post player and another guy who can move to the perimeter as well.

Agree. I think changes will be more about speed, pace and lineups. Having Lander at PG really changes things, as well as the versatility of guys like Hunter, Franklin, Geronimo, etc, 

[dgambill]

I think we will see a lot of Rob, Lander, Al, Jerome, and Trayce this year....with Race being the first big off the bench. Only against very big, physical matchups will you see the more traditional 4-5 of Trayce and Brunk or Race and Brunk etc. Mix in some of the young guys and Armaan and that mainly what you get. I think they go a lot more up tempo too hopefully!

[IU Scott]

5 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I think we will see a lot of Rob, Lander, Al, Jerome, and Trayce this year....with Race being the first big off the bench. Only against very big, physical matchups will you see the more traditional 4-5 of Trayce and Brunk or Race and Brunk etc. Mix in some of the young guys and Armaan and that mainly what you get. I think they go a lot more up tempo too hopefully!

I think at least at the first of the season we will see Race and Trace starting at the 4 and 5 spot.  I think that those two plus Joey will get the majority of the minutes at those two spots,  I think we will either start the 3 guards plus those two bigs or have Hunter start at the 3

[The Daily Hoosier]

13 hours ago, DWB said:

I have a sneaky suspicion that the "new offense" that Rob mentioned in the presser, was a whole lot more than just a few more ball screens, that he stated when asked about the "new offense". I got the feeling Rob just kind of minimized his comment in order to keep from divulging any specifics. You don't call a couple more ball screens a "new offense".

Maybe, just maybe we'll see some off the ball screens, and god forbid, a little motion offense , or something that resembles more motion and screening to get guys open.

Hopefully we'll get to see it, if they don't call off the season.

I agree.  It really already was a ball screen oriented offense.  I think it is going to be more 4 and 5 out on the perimeter spacing the floor and leaving the paint open.  That's why TJD being able to shoot is so key.

[Hoosierhoopster]

These comments stood out to me:

“Once Khristian joined it was inevitable that we were going to have to be able to play Rob (Phinisee), Khristian and Al (Durham) together,” Miller said.  “I don’t know if that (particular) combo works the best or the most, but it’s going to give our perimeter guys way more opportunities to get out there and play three guard lineups.

“We’re going to be a more guard oriented team and play three perimeter players either around Trayce and Joey like we did a year ago, or we’ll play with some even smaller stuff with Jordan Geronimo and Jerome being a more perimeter oriented guy out there around one of those guys.”

So CAM highlighted the three primary guards as Rob, Khristian and Al. His second comment as to Geronimo and Jerome reflects at this point he sees one of them together with Trayce (or Brunk) as the smaller lineup but still with Rob, Khristian and Al as the 3 guards. At least that seems to be what he's saying.

We'll see how that pans -- it is somewhat telling to me that he is pretty clearly indicating he anticipates Rob, Khristian and Al as the primary look, with either a traditional 2-forward combo of Trayce and Brunk, or one of them with either Hunter or Geronimo. That says Al, at this point, will continue to start, as he has. 

It also, I think, pretty clearly reflects that CAM already sees Geronimo as standing out. 

[IowaHoosierFan]

i think we now have a different problem.  And that is we're almost too deep now.  There are just not enough minutes to go around for Rob, Lander, Al, Hunter, TJD, Race, Joey, Jordan, Armaan and trying to get Leal and Galloway some playing time.  Might be a good time to redshirt 1 or 2 but unlikely to happen

I really don't like playing 9-10 guys.  I feel players cant get into the flow of a game, which is why i like starters to get 27-30 minutes a game.

Am i wrong?  Overthinking playing time?

[GaloisGroupe]

I always think we are too deep in the off season...

[BobSaccamanno]

I hope Trayce and Race start and play heavy minutes together. Those guys click and play well and tough.  We need the physicality in the conference.  Then you have Brunk rotating in at both spots.   You could have Hunter or Geronimo play inside for spot duty but I would stick with the Trayce and Race show.  There are some things that are so obvious that you don’t need to overthink it.  

As for Durham, when he has space and can square up, he’s actually a good shooter.  By relieving him of ball handling, that reduces that stress and he may thrive as a shooter.  

There are a number of good options for combos of players at 1-3 with Rob, Lander, Al, Armaan, Hunter and Geronimo.  

That gets you to a nine man rotation, which is my preference.   That doesn’t mean all nine play the same amount.  The ninth guy may be in the rotation but not get heavy minutes.  I’d redshirt Galloway this year and Leal next year and let them be fifth year seniors down the line.  Archie may be afraid of only having ten guys in case of injury.   That extra year could really help maximize their respective contributions over a career.  I’ve seen it way too many times to back off my view.  It’s the smart move.  

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

i think we now have a different problem.  And that is we're almost too deep now.  There are just not enough minutes to go around for Rob, Lander, Al, Hunter, TJD, Race, Joey, Jordan, Armaan and trying to get Leal and Galloway some playing time.  Might be a good time to redshirt 1 or 2 but unlikely to happen

I really don't like playing 9-10 guys.  I feel players cant get into the flow of a game, which is why i like starters to get 27-30 minutes a game.

Am i wrong?  Overthinking playing time?

I don't like playing more than 8 players in your rotation because you need players to get comfortable playing.  If you are subbing in and out consistently your players will have a hard time getting into a rhythm.  I would think Leal or Galloway would be your candidates to redshirt.

[DWB]

While I don't know for sure, and I'm reading between the lines, I think CAM wants to run...and I mean run full throttle, all the time. I went back and watched some Knight teams, and Crean teams, and compared to them, we played in slow motion for the last 2 years.

If CAM goes full throttle all the time, he'll need 9-10 guys. Not equal minutes, just enough to give guys a blow and keep legs fresh. Also gives an opportunity for somebody (outside of the starters) to get hot. (like Armaan, Anthony, Jordan, etal) If you have the talent, and depth, why not use it? I would think we're deeper than most teams.

Just an old fart's 2¢

[BDB]

5 hours ago, Sark said:

Too deep? Not even close. And you’re not over thinking it as much as you’re seeing it differently than Miller does. He likes to play to a long bench to keep guys fresh, so it would be shocking if that didn’t continue. Would think the three freshmen other than Lander will need to improve a great deal in order to get much PT.

I am going to go out on the limb here and predict that Geronimo is getting significant minutes by mid season.

[DWB]

12 hours ago, Sark said:

Wonder if that will be a good thing or a bad thing?

I would imagine it will depend on the productivity of other players, relative to his performance. Having a stable (not fixed) starting line up is probably good. But not every starter will have a good game every night. Nobody will. That's why I like our depth. I think we can go 8-9 deep without a significant loss of production. I don't expect the subs to outperform the 5-6 normal rotation guys, but if they get 75%-80% of the production (offense and defensively) as the "starters" then I think we have a solid team. And with the talent CAM has, I think on any given night a sub can have a great night once in a while. (ie. Armaan comes to mind in the Notre Dame game)

And if Geronimo is as competitive and hustles the way CAM has indicated, he might be a player like McBob, only with more scoring talent.

[IowaHoosierFan]

4 hours ago, DWB said:

I would imagine it will depend on the productivity of other players, relative to his performance. Having a stable (not fixed) starting line up is probably good. But not every starter will have a good game every night. Nobody will. That's why I like our depth. I think we can go 8-9 deep without a significant loss of production. I don't expect the subs to outperform the 5-6 normal rotation guys, but if they get 75%-80% of the production (offense and defensively) as the "starters" then I think we have a solid team. And with the talent CAM has, I think on any given night a sub can have a great night once in a while. (ie. Armaan comes to mind in the Notre Dame game)

And if Geronimo is as competitive and hustles the way CAM has indicated, he might be a player like McBob, only with more scoring talent.

I like you view here.  I would also like to see 7 guys get the majority of minutes with 2 more stealing a few minutes here and there as needed.

[BGleas]

On 7/30/2020 at 8:45 AM, Sark said:

I’m not sure how much Miller wants to compromise on the defensive end so he can go small offensively, but that’s his dilemma. If they go another year without reliable scoring weapons from multiple players, they’re destined for the lower half of the Big 10 standings again. Something has to change and he realizes that long offensive droughts are game killers that can’t be tolerated any more. I’m just not sure how hard Miller wants to squeeze the balloon on one end to get more air on the other.

Versatile players in a more uptempo style doesn’t mean there is any compromise on defense. 

[BGleas]

53 minutes ago, Sark said:

Players that can’t or won’t play defense means there will be a compromise on that end. We lost our leading defender from a year ago on a team where defense had to lead the way because the offense wasn’t up to par, especially from the perimeter. Whatever happens on the offensive end, and hopefully there’s improvement, we’re going to have to compensate for that loss on the defense. And that means some of the returning players need to be a lot better.

Wait, are you saying IU won’t be as good defensively because we don’t have Justin Smith or because we may be better offensively? I disagree with both but the second one doesn’t make any sense. 

[dgambill]

Kinda on topic but not really...so just throwing this out there because I don’t want to start a new thread...but I think we can all agree that kids these days are more athletic and highly skilled then ever before with all the clinics, AAU, better coaching, and just more time and energy then ever going into them...so why oh why is the quality of play and specifically the quality of offense across college basketball so so abysmal. I mean scoring and shooting last couple years have been the worst I’ve ever seen it...I mean we got teams shooting like 40% and scoring 50-60 pts a game. I mean just 20 years ago the quality was so much higher and yet the players today are suppose to be so much more advanced? Is it the good ones don’t stay around long enough to be great? If kids are so much more advanced now days why is quality going down? Love to hear people’s feed back. I have some theories but would like to hear.

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Wait, are you saying IU won’t be as good defensively because we don’t have Justin Smith or because we may be better offensively? I disagree with both but the second one doesn’t make any sense. 

I think losing Justin will hurt a lot especially on defense. How much will depend on how Hunter improves on the defensive end and how ready Jordan is ready to step in. Justin could guard 1-4 and do it pretty good. Switch off and make it difficult on anyone. Offensively can’t say he helped a lot but a good rebounder too which we all know how much it kills defensive momentum to give up an offensive rebound after a good stand. Overall I think we will be just as good. Improvements from Race, TJD, and I’m especially looking forward to Armaan will give us a boost. I agree I don’t think we change much but losing a senior who also was instrumental as Trayce said in teaching the system and being vocal leader will hurt I can’t help but agree with Sark there....yuck!!

[BGleas]

10 hours ago, Sark said:

I’m saying losing your best defensive player plus another baseline guy with size, plus bring in four new players, isn’t likely to make our defense better and will probably make it worse. I don’t know if our offense will be better but we’ll be playing smaller and probably quicker, which will likely stress the D more. How much of a trade off Miller is prepared to make will be interesting, but we can’t hope to crack the top half of the Big 10 if we aren’t much better offensively, but there will probably be a defensive compromise to get there.

We just have a different point of view on this. I don’t see how smaller and quicker means worse defensively, especially in IU’s case because it’s a decision Archie can make, unlike last year where he was almost forced to play bigger and slower. If we have a season, Archie has the luxury of going smaller, but quicker with guys like Geronimo and Hunter getting some time at the 4, or he can go bigger with TJD and Brunk/Race together if he needs to. Race sort of splits the difference, while he’s a 4 he does have the athleticism to defend the perimeter effectively. 

This board has discussed Smith ad nauseum, so at the risk of bringing that debate back up, I’ll agree that Smith was arguably IU’s best on-ball defender when motivated (which was not always the case). He was definitely our go-to defender if the other team’s best player was a 3/4. With that said, throughout his career he was an average off-ball defender, and hurt the defense off the ball quite often.  

At the end of the day, the Smith loss does hurt defensively, but I don’t see how anyone can say being more versatile, quicker and more athletic means worse defensively? I don’t see any tradeoff being made and I think this roster has the talent and athleticism to actually be better defensively. Not saying it definitely will, but it has the potential. 

[BGleas]

10 hours ago, dgambill said:

I think losing Justin will hurt a lot especially on defense. How much will depend on how Hunter improves on the defensive end and how ready Jordan is ready to step in. Justin could guard 1-4 and do it pretty good. Switch off and make it difficult on anyone. Offensively can’t say he helped a lot but a good rebounder too which we all know how much it kills defensive momentum to give up an offensive rebound after a good stand. Overall I think we will be just as good. Improvements from Race, TJD, and I’m especially looking forward to Armaan will give us a boost. I agree I don’t think we change much but losing a senior who also was instrumental as Trayce said in teaching the system and being vocal leader will hurt I can’t help but agree with Sark there....yuck!!

I hate to do go down the Justin Smith rabbit hole again, and I agree his loss hurts to an extent. It hurts to lose your best on-ball defender at the 3/4 (Phinisee when healthy is the best on ball defender at the guard spot) and it hurts to lose a guy who would be a 3-year starter his second senior year. Absolutely that hurts.

With all of that said, he was an average off ball defender, and that hurt the defense. He was average in getting back in transition, and that hurt, and we all know his offensive limits, which also hurt the defense. It hurts your defense when you’re taking bad shots, turning the ball over, etc., and always having to play D in transition or ‘scramble mode’. I watched him a lot off the ball and I will always say he hurt IU’s defense when he wasn’t locked in and focused on shutting a certain player down on the ball. 

All those things I listed are not all Justin Smith’s fault, there are other guys that do those things as well, but he was a big culprit. 

I just think a quicker, more athletic, more offensively skilled and efficient team has the chance to be an even better defensive team, despite the loss of Smith. It’s going to take guys like Race, Hunter, Franklin and Phinisee to develop and come into their own, but if that happens and a guy like Geronimo develops, I see this as a more efficient offensive team and a better, more versatile defensive team. Smith could have been a big part of that, but he chose to leave, and I think it may not hurt as much as some think.  

 

[IU Scott]

12 hours ago, dgambill said:

Kinda on topic but not really...so just throwing this out there because I don’t want to start a new thread...but I think we can all agree that kids these days are more athletic and highly skilled then ever before with all the clinics, AAU, better coaching, and just more time and energy then ever going into them...so why oh why is the quality of play and specifically the quality of offense across college basketball so so abysmal. I mean scoring and shooting last couple years have been the worst I’ve ever seen it...I mean we got teams shooting like 40% and scoring 50-60 pts a game. I mean just 20 years ago the quality was so much higher and yet the players today are suppose to be so much more advanced? Is it the good ones don’t stay around long enough to be great? If kids are so much more advanced now days why is quality going down? Love to hear people’s feed back. I have some theories but would like to hear.

Been asking the same thing for years and I think one of the main reasons is that players leaving early every year.  Go watch games from the 80's and 90's and most of the payers getting major minutes were junior and seniors.  When you have a team where they have played together for years the coach can trust them and let them play more freely.  I think coaches today micromanage everything and will not just let the players go out and play.  I also think AAU style has hurt the fundamentals of the game and now it is more of a one on one type of offense.  Next I think going to a 30 second shot clock has really hurt the game as well because we see more and more bad shots at the end of the shot clock.  Back in the day when it was 45 seconds you rarely saw a possession where the shot clock was even brought into play.

[IUFLA]

13 hours ago, dgambill said:

Kinda on topic but not really...so just throwing this out there because I don’t want to start a new thread...but I think we can all agree that kids these days are more athletic and highly skilled then ever before with all the clinics, AAU, better coaching, and just more time and energy then ever going into them...so why oh why is the quality of play and specifically the quality of offense across college basketball so so abysmal. I mean scoring and shooting last couple years have been the worst I’ve ever seen it...I mean we got teams shooting like 40% and scoring 50-60 pts a game. I mean just 20 years ago the quality was so much higher and yet the players today are suppose to be so much more advanced? Is it the good ones don’t stay around long enough to be great? If kids are so much more advanced now days why is quality going down? Love to hear people’s feed back. I have some theories but would like to hear.

 

13 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Been asking the same thing for years and I think one of the main reasons is that players leaving early every year.  Go watch games from the 80's and 90's and most of the payers getting major minutes were junior and seniors.  When you have a team where they have played together for years the coach can trust them and let them play more freely.  I think coaches today micromanage everything and will not just let the players go out and play.  I also think AAU style has hurt the fundamentals of the game and now it is more of a one on one type of offense.  Next I think going to a 30 second shot clock has really hurt the game as well because we see more and more bad shots at the end of the shot clock.  Back in the day when it was 45 seconds you rarely saw a possession where the shot clock was even brought into play.

I personally think it's the physical way they let teams play defense. Back in the 80s and 90s, they called it pretty close. 

Now, I see a lot of what would have been fouls back then, especially body contact, that are ignored in today's game...

"Play on." 

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, Sark said:

We can disagree. I don’t see us as being more versatile, quicker and more athletic. Hunter hasn’t shown much interest in defense, and no one has seen Geronimo play except against inferior competition in highlight videos. I think Lander has to contribute, but he’s slight. Up front, we have almost no margin for error if someone gets hurt or even in foul trouble. And big teams will go low and test us there. Race on the perimeter? We don’t want that.

Not saying we’re going to be terrible but Miller has no choice but to chase offense. You can’t win with no perimeter game and long scoring droughts. We’ve seen that. But I think the trade off will be on the defensive end, something that goes against Miller’s nature. Thanks for the nice discussion.

You said in the post I quoted that we’d be playing smaller and quicker...

I don’t know how you can say we won’t be quicker and more athletic? We’ve added a lightening quick 5* pg, as well as three other perimeter players. Franklin, who has a lot of potential, will be a year older and more comfortable and he showed flashes of being a strong defender as a freshen, Phinisee and Hunter should be healthy, and Phinisee has been a fantastic defender when healthy, etc. Archie himself said IU will most likely be playing smaller and quicker. 

On Race, yes he is a more athletic big that can defend the perimeter at times. In this day and age a Big has to be able to switch on the ball screen to defend the perimeter. It’s why at times later in the year once he was healthy, IU was better with Race on the court alongside TJD as opposed to Brunk or Davis. I never said he’s a perimeter player, but that as a big he’s one of our best at switching out defensively. 

IU will absolutely be a more versatile team. Archie will be able to play quick, athletic, smaller lineups, and also be able to player bigger lineups like last year, but those bigger lineups, without Smithvat the 3, will no longer sacrifice size for offense.

There is a big ‘if’ though, and that’s where the loss of Smith hurts. The ‘if’ is IU needs Phinisee, Hunter, Franklin and Race to develop and step up their games and consistency. If they do, then this is a dangerous, versatile, athletic team. 

 

[BGleas]

3 hours ago, Sark said:

Quicker? Maybe, because of Lander. But not really any more athletic. We’re just shifting to more three guard line ups because we really don’t have any choice. We can’t score, so something will have to give. Losing our best defender will only make that defensive loss hurt even more, and we’ll be painfully thin up front. Race can’t guard the perimeter consistently well, and we don’t want him out there. If he is, we’re in trouble. As I said, Miller must jump start the offense. He has no choice or we’re going to spend another year in the bottom half of the conference. It’s just a matter of how much defense he’s willing to give up to get that done. 

Yes, and a 3-guard lineup vs. the big lineup last year makes us quicker and more athletic. You’re describing basketball from the 80’s and 90’s. Being bigger doesn’t necessarily mean better defensively. 

This is 2020, 90% of the teams play a dribble drive/high ball screen offense and you’re bigs have to be able to defend the perimeter. If Race, or even TJD for that matter, can’t blitz a high ball screen and rotate back or can’t switch on a guard and at least for resistance as a perimeter defender, then they can’t play. 

That’s a big reason why Deron Davis couldn’t play much. The injuries had made him so slow and unathletic that he couldn’t play the defense. Teams just put his man in high ball screens and the coaches feasted. He couldn’t switch and he couldn’t rotate fast enough off the blitz. Race can. 

Miller will jumpstart the offense, Lander and the health of Phinisee and Hunter help him do that a great deal, but in no way does it mean he has to ‘give something up’ defensively. I don’t know if the defense will be better or worse next year, neither do you, but the simple fact that the offense should be better does not mean the defense has to be worse. If anything, the offense being better gives the defense a better chance for improvement.