At What Point......

[5fouls]

Do IU fans let go of the past and expect a different future.

This is not a panic post due to a 5-5 start.  It's intended to be an inventory of the last 25 years.  I do think better times are ahead and that Archie will have more consistent success than Crean was able to achieve.

That said, it's been 15 years since the program went to the Final Four, and even that was somewhat a fluke.  It's been 25 years since Indiana has been considered a national threat for multiple seasons in a row.  Sure, there was the #1 team that lost in the Regional against Syracuse, but the following year was a huge disappointment.

With a history now going back 25 years, it's easy to say that IU is no longer a team that can be considered at the level of Duke, UNC, Kansas, UK, Michigan State, etc.  In fact, it's not even Villanova, Syracuse, UCONN, Louisville, Florida, Arizona, UCLA, or Wisconsin over that period of time.

The banners are great, but it's hard for most kids to relate to something that happened 10 years before they were even born.  What does 'It's Indiana' even mean right now?  If things don't change, once my generation passes on, will the passion still be there if no one alive can even remember the last Championship.      

Is it even possible that a transcendent talent like Romeo can change the long term prospects of the program, as he would likely only be there for 1-2 years?  

As a comparison, I'm a huge Cincinnati Reds fan.  Back in the 70's, as a 10-13 year old, it was hard for me to imagine the Reds ever not being good because of the success of The Big Red Machine.      The 80's were miserable, but the team tossed me a bone in 1990 by winning it all.  However, since that time, there has not been a single baseball season where I felt the Reds had a legitimate chance to win it all.  And, with the economics of baseball these days, I have come to the understanding that I may get a bone every now and then (like Royals fans got a couple of years ago), but long term success and the Cincinnati Reds just aren't ever going to be paired up in the future.

I'm beginning to view IU in the same way.  It seems that in today's college basketball environment, it's easier to be like Duke, UK, and Arizona than it is to be like Villanova.  And, when Jay Wright retires, expect Villanova to fall back, just as IU did shortly after Knight left, or UCONN did shortly after Calhoun left.  

Bottom line, it may be time for me to expect something different from IU going forward.  Maybe being content with competing for Big Ten Championships should be my expectation.  Maybe expecting to beat teams like UL at home, but not getting upset when they lose to them on the road should be considered okay.  The world has changed, and it's about time that I change with it.

  

 

[rico]

11 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Do IU fans let go of the past and expect a different future.

This is not a panic post due to a 5-5 start.  It's intended to be an inventory of the last 25 years.  I do think better times are ahead and that Archie will have more consistent success than Crean was able to achieve.

That said, it's been 15 years since the program went to the Final Four, and even that was somewhat a fluke.  It's been 25 years since Indiana has been considered a national threat for multiple seasons in a row.  Sure, there was the #1 team that lost in the Regional against Syracuse, but the following year was a huge disappointment.

With a history now going back 25 years, it's easy to say that IU is no longer a team that can be considered at the level of Duke, UNC, Kansas, UK, Michigan State, etc.  In fact, it's not even Villanova, Syracuse, UCONN, Louisville, Florida, Arizona, UCLA, or Wisconsin over that period of time.

The banners are great, but it's hard for most kids to relate to something that happened 10 years before they were even born.  What does 'It's Indiana' even mean right now?  If things don't change, once my generation passes on, will the passion still be there if no one alive can even remember the last Championship.      

Is it even possible that a transcendent talent like Romeo can change the long term prospects of the program, as he would likely only be there for 1-2 years?  

As a comparison, I'm a huge Cincinnati Reds fan.  Back in the 70's, as a 10-13 year old, it was hard for me to imagine the Reds ever not being good because of the success of The Big Red Machine.      The 80's were miserable, but the team tossed me a bone in 1990 by winning it all.  However, since that time, there has not been a single baseball season where I felt the Reds had a legitimate chance to win it all.  And, with the economics of baseball these days, I have come to the understanding that I may get a bone every now and then (like Royals fans got a couple of years ago), but long term success and the Cincinnati Reds just aren't ever going to be paired up in the future.

I'm beginning to view IU in the same way.  It seems that in today's college basketball environment, it's easier to be like Duke, UK, and Arizona than it is to be like Villanova.  And, when Jay Wright retires, expect Villanova to fall back, just as IU did shortly after Knight left, or UCONN did shortly after Calhoun left.  

Bottom line, it may be time for me to expect something different from IU going forward.  Maybe being content with competing for Big Ten Championships should be my expectation.  Maybe expecting to beat teams like UL at home, but not getting upset when they lose to them on the road should be considered okay.  The world has changed, and it's about time that I change with it.

  

 

I love the Reds analogy.  

[CauseThatsMyDJ]

Currently I believe a lot of fans are delusional about where IU stands on the national landscape. That said, I think we are like Alabama football before Saban. Get the right guy in charge, we can be back at the top again. But we certainly aren’t there now. 

[Coach1K]

It is like being the Cubs before getting Maddon and Theo Epstein and winning a world series.

[FW_Hoosier]

It’s all about the coach in college basketball.  If Archie becomes an elite coach, IU will be an elite program again.  If he doesn’t, the cycle will continue.  I’ve liked what I’ve seen as far as the system Archie has been implementing so far this season.  A lot of it will come down to how well he can recruit.

[rico]

31 minutes ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

Currently I believe a lot of fans are delusional about where IU stands on the national landscape. That said, I think we are like Alabama football before Saban. Get the right guy in charge, we can be back at the top again. But we certainly aren’t there now. 

Yes the fans are.  They want the glory days back so much.  And I am one of them.  We just need the right guy and we will be back.

[FritzIam4IU]

Indiana high school hoops still churns out tons of elite players. So to me, if Archie can recruit Indiana better than we have in quite some time, we will be a national power again. I think Archie is definitely has the skills to coach the team up if he can convince the elite Indiana kids to "stay home". I realize that is a simple response, but I really believe that is the answer.

[FWIUFan]

1 hour ago, rico said:

Yes the fans are.  They want the glory days back so much.  And I am one of them.  We just need the right guy and we will be back.

 

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Do IU fans let go of the past and expect a different future.

This is not a panic post due to a 5-5 start.  It's intended to be an inventory of the last 25 years.  I do think better times are ahead and that Archie will have more consistent success than Crean was able to achieve.

That said, it's been 15 years since the program went to the Final Four, and even that was somewhat a fluke.  It's been 25 years since Indiana has been considered a national threat for multiple seasons in a row.  Sure, there was the #1 team that lost in the Regional against Syracuse, but the following year was a huge disappointment.

With a history now going back 25 years, it's easy to say that IU is no longer a team that can be considered at the level of Duke, UNC, Kansas, UK, Michigan State, etc.  In fact, it's not even Villanova, Syracuse, UCONN, Louisville, Florida, Arizona, UCLA, or Wisconsin over that period of time.

The banners are great, but it's hard for most kids to relate to something that happened 10 years before they were even born.  What does 'It's Indiana' even mean right now?  If things don't change, once my generation passes on, will the passion still be there if no one alive can even remember the last Championship.      

Is it even possible that a transcendent talent like Romeo can change the long term prospects of the program, as he would likely only be there for 1-2 years?  

As a comparison, I'm a huge Cincinnati Reds fan.  Back in the 70's, as a 10-13 year old, it was hard for me to imagine the Reds ever not being good because of the success of The Big Red Machine.      The 80's were miserable, but the team tossed me a bone in 1990 by winning it all.  However, since that time, there has not been a single baseball season where I felt the Reds had a legitimate chance to win it all.  And, with the economics of baseball these days, I have come to the understanding that I may get a bone every now and then (like Royals fans got a couple of years ago), but long term success and the Cincinnati Reds just aren't ever going to be paired up in the future.

I'm beginning to view IU in the same way.  It seems that in today's college basketball environment, it's easier to be like Duke, UK, and Arizona than it is to be like Villanova.  And, when Jay Wright retires, expect Villanova to fall back, just as IU did shortly after Knight left, or UCONN did shortly after Calhoun left.  

Bottom line, it may be time for me to expect something different from IU going forward.  Maybe being content with competing for Big Ten Championships should be my expectation.  Maybe expecting to beat teams like UL at home, but not getting upset when they lose to them on the road should be considered okay.  The world has changed, and it's about time that I change with it.

  

 

Since the loss to UL yesterday, was also thinking about a return to "the gory days."  I usually need to take 24hr to gather my thoughts to keep the emotions of the loss from tainting them.  I have to separate what I perceived as CAM's game plans from their actual execution.  I think I've seen enough to convince me that CAM has the X's and O's  and a vision of how he wants to play what I call Archie Ball such that he can compete at an elite level--we've already done it twice with seriously deficient talent.  I know we lost to Duke and to UL,both much more athletically gifted teams, and that we are not to accept "moral victories" according to CAM.  However, both those games could have easily been W's with a couple of breaks to our advantage.  What a different conversation we would now be having if that had occurred!  I now have to accept that our problem is talent level.  Our senior especially simply seem incapable of carrying this team.  CAM is showing that he can address this problem already considering our current recruiting class w/wo Romeo.  The emphasis on recruiting Indiana first also ties into the "glory days" we yearn for as IUBB fans. I've been following IUBB since the 70's when CBK took over as coach.  Always loved how we had a number of home grown hoosiers with seemingly less athletic ability bringing home the banners!   I still expect this team to continue to improve thru the year and we will have some positive surprises to talk about.   Jury is still out weather we can make tourney.   Never the less, I have seen nothing that CAM has done since his arrival to dissuade me from the belief that 5yr from now with him recruiting to his system and emphasizing the Indiana home grown recruits first that we won't be considered an Elite program again!  

[milehiiu]

Tom Crean cleared the debris, and set the foundation.  Now it is up to Archie Miller to build the skyscraper. 

[cohete15]

3 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

Tom Crean cleared the debris, and set the foundation.  Now it is up to Archie Miller to build the skyscraper. 

I like this, so I wanted to quote it.

You can’t win championships without good basketball players. Or at least players that fit your system. We don’t have many of those right now. Archie has reeled in a really good class without Romeo, but we do need him. 

I love what Archie has us doing on the court. I love that he expects a lot from the players and holds them accountable. I love how he expects to win and doesn’t make excuses. He doesn’t ask for “time”. He’s a pure competitor and pure basketball coach that seems to be well liked and respected by kids, coaches and his peers.

We will be elite again. And it will be soon. 

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

Currently I believe a lot of fans are delusional about where IU stands on the national landscape. That said, I think we are like Alabama football before Saban. Get the right guy in charge, we can be back at the top again. But we certainly aren’t there now. 

Saban went 7-6 his first year and lost to UL Monroe. 

[CauseThatsMyDJ]

2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Saban went 7-6 his first year and lost to UL Monroe. 

More reason to be optimistic about where we are currently. 

[rico]

8 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Saban went 7-6 his first year and lost to UL Monroe. 

However, Saban also won a championship at LSU before going to Bama.

[Jacarcio]

My opinion for what it's worth is that we have all the ingredients to get back to being elite. I think that's what makes not seeing those results so upsetting to many.

High basketball budget- check. Basketball rich recruiting base- check. Strong fan interest- check. Strong tradition- check. Strong coaching- (I hope check, but we shall see. I believe Archie is the right guy). Elite results - not yet.          

I liked the Alabama pre saban comparison a lot. We are a lot closer than most schools just at the base. I don't want to settle for good when elite is so close. Our history is just a piece of the puzzle, our history can't determine our future or magically make us elite. It has however made it so we are closer to getting to elite than 95 percent of other d1 colleges. I hope Archie is the right guy so we can put this to bed for the next 30 years lol

 

[KoB2011]

19 minutes ago, rico said:

However, Saban also won a championship at LSU before going to Bama.

I'm not sure what that has to do with? Are we discussing his pedigree or how this season is playing out?

[IU Scott]

Yes we do have 5 banners but I think a lot of people mis remember a lot about our history.  Even under RMK we were not a championship contender every year.  It seemed like every 4 or 5 years we had those championship caliber teams. Take out 75 and 76 and 92 and 93 we never really have consistent championship caliber teams.  It seem like we had a couple of good years then another very good year then the next year we had a championship team.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Yes we do have 5 banners but I think a lot of people mis remember a lot about our history.  Even under RMK we were not a championship contender every year.  It seemed like every 4 or 5 years we had those championship caliber teams. Take out 75 and 76 and 92 and 93 we never really have consistent championship caliber teams.  It seem like we had a couple of good years then another very good year then the next year we had a championship team.

Had Landon Turner not had the horrific accident and had Kitchell not hurt his back, I think that the teams immediately after the Zeke championship team could have contended for championships 

[Bigred3588]

1 hour ago, FritzIam4IU said:

Indiana high school hoops still churns out tons of elite players. So to me, if Archie can recruit Indiana better than we have in quite some time, we will be a national power again. I think Archie is definitely has the skills to coach the team up if he can convince the elite Indiana kids to "stay home". I realize that is a simple response, but I really believe that is the answer.

This. I firmly believe that as long as the state of Indiana continues to produce the talent that it does, every team in the state has the potential to be great under the right leadership. I don’t even think you have to land a lot of the top talent to do it either. One thing I can say after living and watching basketball in multiple states is that kids from Indiana are coached at a higher level as they come up. They have a better understanding of how to play as a team. With what I’ve seen from Miller, I’m very optimistic about our future. His style meshes with the style that most Indiana kids are coached to play.

Fwiw, the members of this board that have become familiar with my posts over the last decade know that I’m not the overly optimistic koolaid drinking type. I’m even a little surprised at how optimistic I am for this team under Miller. Even with the losses, I’m loving watching the return to what I consider real basketball.

[rico]

15 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm not sure what that has to do with? Are we discussing his pedigree or how this season is playing out?

I was referring to pedigree.  Saban was a proven commodity.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Do IU fans let go of the past and expect a different future.

This is not a panic post due to a 5-5 start.  It's intended to be an inventory of the last 25 years.  I do think better times are ahead and that Archie will have more consistent success than Crean was able to achieve.

That said, it's been 15 years since the program went to the Final Four, and even that was somewhat a fluke.  It's been 25 years since Indiana has been considered a national threat for multiple seasons in a row.  Sure, there was the #1 team that lost in the Regional against Syracuse, but the following year was a huge disappointment.

With a history now going back 25 years, it's easy to say that IU is no longer a team that can be considered at the level of Duke, UNC, Kansas, UK, Michigan State, etc.  In fact, it's not even Villanova, Syracuse, UCONN, Louisville, Florida, Arizona, UCLA, or Wisconsin over that period of time.

The banners are great, but it's hard for most kids to relate to something that happened 10 years before they were even born.  What does 'It's Indiana' even mean right now?  If things don't change, once my generation passes on, will the passion still be there if no one alive can even remember the last Championship.      

Is it even possible that a transcendent talent like Romeo can change the long term prospects of the program, as he would likely only be there for 1-2 years?  

As a comparison, I'm a huge Cincinnati Reds fan.  Back in the 70's, as a 10-13 year old, it was hard for me to imagine the Reds ever not being good because of the success of The Big Red Machine.      The 80's were miserable, but the team tossed me a bone in 1990 by winning it all.  However, since that time, there has not been a single baseball season where I felt the Reds had a legitimate chance to win it all.  And, with the economics of baseball these days, I have come to the understanding that I may get a bone every now and then (like Royals fans got a couple of years ago), but long term success and the Cincinnati Reds just aren't ever going to be paired up in the future.

I'm beginning to view IU in the same way.  It seems that in today's college basketball environment, it's easier to be like Duke, UK, and Arizona than it is to be like Villanova.  And, when Jay Wright retires, expect Villanova to fall back, just as IU did shortly after Knight left, or UCONN did shortly after Calhoun left.  

Bottom line, it may be time for me to expect something different from IU going forward.  Maybe being content with competing for Big Ten Championships should be my expectation.  Maybe expecting to beat teams like UL at home, but not getting upset when they lose to them on the road should be considered okay.  The world has changed, and it's about time that I change with it.

  

 

You posted yesterday a list of definitions--which I thought was spot on, btw.

My turn today, and the word is "capitulate "- to give in, give up, concede.

 I will never lower my standards so I can feel better when IU basketball hits a lower bar than what I expect. Realistic or not, I expect the program to return to elite status. Lowering our standards make us Purdue. Who wants that?

[Mac]

56 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

Tom Crean cleared the debris, and set the foundation.  Now it is up to Archie Miller to build the skyscraper. 

This is a pretty good metaphor. Give Miller some time. I'm pleased with where the program seems to be heading. We have a young coach who can build this program back to where it belongs. In time, we may think of Miller as the second coming of B. Knight. We may.

[Indykev]

3 hours ago, FW_Hoosier said:

It’s all about the coach in college basketball.  If Archie becomes an elite coach, IU will be an elite program again.  If he doesn’t, the cycle will continue.  I’ve liked what I’ve seen as far as the system Archie has been implementing so far this season.  A lot of it will come down to how well he can recruit.

This. The only thing I can add is. I will always expect us to win once the ball goes up. I will never be happy giving games away, like yesterday.

[Mac]

10 minutes ago, Jerry Lundergaard said:

Had Landon Turner not had the horrific accident and had Kitchell not hurt his back, I think that the teams immediately after the Zeke championship team could have contended for championships 

No question. Turner was a stud in that '81 tournament.

[Indykev]

Crean cleared the debris threw it in a dumpster and set it on fire. And we got to watch it the last couple seasons. Its still burning.  

[milehiiu]

Food for thought. 

Coach K of Duke.  He , of whom is still going strong with over 1,000 W's to his credit, went 6-8, 4-10, 3-11,7-7, and 8-6 in conference play in his first five years at Duke.  In fact, was 38-47 in his first three years.... a figure, that today, might have gotten him fired at many "name" schools across the country.