IU Scott Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 33 minutes ago, BGleas said: The players are better, they’re just not as experienced. Zion is better than Cheaney was a freshmen, they just don’t get to be seniors. Better athletes don't always means better fundemental players. Guess we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 2 hours ago, BGleas said: I could not disagree more with this idea that players in the 80's and 90's were more skilled or fundamentally sound than players today and that players today are just more athletic. The skill level of today's players is infinitely better than in the 80's and 90's. In basketball in 2020, the training is better, almost everyone on the court can shoot and handle the ball, players can use both hands better and more efficiently, have deeper range, etc. The skill level has increased incredibly and you can see in the development of mid-major programs as well. There is a much wider pool of talented, skilled players than there was 30 years ago. The simple problem with college basketball, beyond the lack of coaching creativity (pretty much everyone runs the exact same stuff) is that the best players either don't play college basketball or they only play for one season. Yeah, college basketball was better when you had Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, Chris Mullins, Shaq, Tim Duncan, Danny Manning, Calbert Cheaney, Sean Elliott, Mark Jackson, James Worthy, etc., etc. (just naming great players I remember from college basketball in the 80's and early 90's) all playing 3-4 years. Current college basketball would look a lot different if Anthony Davis, Cody Zeller, Zion Williamson, Jayson Tatum, Donovan Mitchell, Ben Simmons, Devin Booker, Tray Young, Brandon Ingram, etc., etc., all played 4 years of college basketball. Those players are all just as skilled as players from the 80's and 90's, if not more skilled, they just only played 1-2 years of college basketball. Most of those guys also didn’t play 4 years. But I agree great is great and they could translate to any generation. Like I said you put them as freshman today with the year round practice/play and nutrition I don’t see kids any more athletic now than then. Kids are suppose to be better shooters and maybe from 3 but I don’t see them anywhere close to mid range and post game those guys had. To me the shooting just isn’t translating outside a few elite kids. Anyways I was just saying you don’t see execution and performance like from that video anymore. Someone said they’d get run off the floor now and I just disagree as my main point. I think those kids if you plopped them in a program today would be just as successful. Greg Graham, Damon Bailey, Matt all would adjust just fine. Obviously Calbert and Alan would be elite too. It is true about kids leaving early at a higher rate...but if you plop that 92-93 team in today...I still stand by it that they would wipe the floor. My point is we aren’t close to fielding a team like that and even upper class man like Brunk, Al, last year Green/Smith they didn’t progress like we saw with Knights kids. Also more my point is we had a loaded team...look how good we were at every position and we are a long way from being that deep. Hopefully Archie will get us there. I do like the mix of 4 year guys and elite talent he is recruiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Better athletes don't always means better fundemental players. Guess we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. I guess we will. Players today have much deeper shooting range and are better ball handlers, etc. The game has evolved. Players are not only more athletic, but also more skilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 1 minute ago, BGleas said: I guess we will. Players today have much deeper shooting range and are better ball handlers, etc. The game has evolved. Players are not only more athletic, but also more skilled. They might have deeper rage but the percentage is not as good. Like I said I disagree with your assesment which is fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, dgambill said: Most of those guys also didn’t play 4 years. But I agree great is great and they could translate to any generation. Like I said you put them as freshman today with the year round practice/play and nutrition I don’t see kids any more athletic now than then. Kids are suppose to be better shooters and maybe from 3 but I don’t see them anywhere close to mid range and post game those guys had. To me the shooting just isn’t translating outside a few elite kids. Anyways I was just saying you don’t see execution and performance like from that video anymore. Someone said they’d get run off the floor now and I just disagree as my main point. I think those kids if you plopped them in a program today would be just as successful. Greg Graham, Damon Bailey, Matt all would adjust just fine. Obviously Calbert and Alan would be elite too. It is true about kids leaving early at a higher rate...but if you plop that 92-93 team in today...I still stand by it that they would wipe the floor. My point is we aren’t close to fielding a team like that and even upper class man like Brunk, Al, last year Green/Smith they didn’t progress like we saw with Knights kids. Also more my point is we had a loaded team...look how good we were at every position and we are a long way from being that deep. Hopefully Archie will get us there. I do like the mix of 4 year guys and elite talent he is recruiting. In comparing players today to players from the 30+ years ago, I agree that the difference is in the training and how the game is played. For example, Hakeem Olajuwon would have had the ability to be as skilled as someone like Anthony Davis, but they didn’t train like that back then, so he wasn’t as skilled. In a comparison like that Anthony Davis is benefitting from the era he plays in. But at the end of the day, because of those differences, Anthony Davis is a more skilled, fundamentally all-around player. He just is. Players today are far more well rounded in their skill sets. Every player has to be able to handle the ball, attack off the dribble, pass, shoot, etc. It wasn’t like that 30-40 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, IU Scott said: They might have deeper rage but the percentage is not as good. Like I said I disagree with your assesment which is fine Well yeah, when you take tougher shots the percentages are going to go down. When you shoot 90% of your shots within 15ft the percentages are going to look better. But players in the 80’s wouldn’t dream of even taking some of the incredible shots that guys like Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Luka Doncic, Trae Young, Jayson Tatum, etc. take and make. But again, the players today are more skilled. Everyone on the court has to be able to handle, dribble, pass, attack off the dribble, shoot, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, BGleas said: Well yeah, when you take tougher shots the percentages are going to go down. When you shoot 90% of your shots within 15ft the percentages are going to look better. But players in the 80’s wouldn’t dream of even taking some of the incredible shots that guys like Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Luka Doncic, Trae Young, Jayson Tatum, etc. take and make. But again, the players today are more skilled. Everyone on the court has to be able to handle, dribble, pass, attack off the dribble, shoot, etc. Well like I sdaid that is your opinion and i disagree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 7 minutes ago, IU Scott said: They might have deeper rage but the percentage is not as good. Like I said I disagree with your assesment which is fine Oh and Zion Williamson shot 68% from the field as a freshmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 Just now, BGleas said: Oh and Zion Williamson shot 68% from the field as a freshmen. Good for him but it is hard to miss dunks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 Just now, IU Scott said: Well like I sdaid that is your opinion and i disagree with it. Yeah, I picked up on that. It was subtle, but I thought maybe you disagreed with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 8 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Good for him but it is hard to miss dunks Yeah, Zion is not just a dunker. You should go watch some of his highlights, yes a lot of dunks, but a lot of impressive drives to that basket and tough finishes in traffic as well as a lot of great passes. Just using the Calbert comparison, Zion is a much better ball handler and passer. Part of the reason Cheaney wasn’t a star in the NBA, which Zion is, was that Cheaney was an average at best ball handler and couldn’t drive to the basket, and could never extend his range to the NBA 3pt line. Im sure you’ll just say you disagree without actually going to watch some highlights, but you really should watch some. Zion is an incredible athlete, but he’s also a really skilled player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, BGleas said: Yeah, Zion is not just a dunker. You should go watch some of his highlights, yes a lot of dunks, but a lot of impressive drives to that basket and tough finishes in traffic as well as a lot of great passes. Just using the Calbert comparison, Zion is a much better ball handler and passer. Part of the reason Cheaney wasn’t a star in the NBA, which Zion is, was that Cheaney was an average at best ball handler and couldn’t drive to the basket, and could never extend his range to the NBA 3pt line. Im sure you’ll just say you disagree without actually going to watch some highlights, but you really should watch some. Zion is an incredible athlete, but he’s also a really skilled player. Probably watch most of the Duke games that year so yes i watched alot of him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 Just now, IU Scott said: Probably watch most of the Duke games that year so yes i watched alot of him So then you know Zion is much, much more than just a dunker/athlete. He’s a highly skilled player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 Just now, BGleas said: So then you know Zion is much, much more than just a dunker/athlete. He’s a highly skilled player. He did not shoot much outside of 5 feet. I would take Shaq over Zion as well. I get it you think todays basketball is far superior but I don't agree and leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 11 minutes ago, IU Scott said: He did not shoot much outside of 5 feet. I would take Shaq over Zion as well. I get it you think todays basketball is far superior but I don't agree and leave it at that. Skill and fundamentals encompass way more than just shooting percentages and where you take shots from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 Sorry to belabor this, but I dont even really see how this is an opinion thing. Each generation gets more and more skilled than the generation before it. It’s just how the game evolves. Isiah Thomas, John Stockton and Magic could do things that Bob Cousy couldn’t dream about doing. I love Cousy, he’s a Celtic and you know I love my Celtics, but Cousy could barely dribble with his left hand. I love Bill Russell, and Wilt is one of the greatest basketball freaks of all-time, but Olajuwon, David Robinson and Ewing, etc. could things those guys could never do. And in this generation the players are doing things that guys in the 80’s and 90’s couldn’t do. The ball handling, creative shot-making, etc, are off the charts. The ability that the big men have in today’s game is light years ahead of what big men 30-40 years ago could do. Jokic basically plays point guard for the Nuggets when Murray is out. Anthony Davis is knocking down buzzer beating 3’s in the playoffs and dribble driving by guys from the perimeter. Guys like Curry, Irving and Harden are magicians in terms of ball handling, and Curry with his shooting from incredible range, etc. It’s just the evolution of the game and player in each generation. Some might not like the style of play today (too many 3’s, too much hero ball, and I don’t disagree with that), but that has nothing to do with the skill level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 6 minutes ago, BGleas said: Sorry to belabor this, but I dont even really see how this is an opinion thing. Each generation gets more and more skilled than the generation before it. It’s just how the game evolves. Isiah Thomas, John Stockton and Magic could do things that Bob Cousy couldn’t dream about doing. I love Cousy, he’s a Celtic and you know I love my Celtics, but Cousy could barely dribble with his left hand. I love Bill Russell, and Wilt is one of the greatest basketball freaks of all-time, but Olajuwon, David Robinson and Ewing, etc. could things those guys could never do. And in this generation the players are doing things that guys in the 80’s and 90’s couldn’t do. The ball handling, creative shot-making, etc, are off the charts. The ability that the big men have in today’s game is light years ahead of what big men 30-40 years ago could do. Jokic basically plays point guard for the Nuggets when Murray is out. Anthony Davis is knocking down buzzer beating 3’s in the playoffs and dribble driving by guys from the perimeter. Guys like Curry, Irving and Harden are magicians in terms of ball handling, and Curry with his shooting from incredible range, etc. It’s just the evolution of the game and player in each generation. Some might not like the style of play today (too many 3’s, too much hero ball, and I don’t disagree with that), but that has nothing to do with the skill level. My last thing is that all I care is what kind of product that I see in college basketball and it is not even close to what it was in the past. I don't care if they are better athletes or that they have better handles which mostly means they are not enforcing palming the ball any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, IU Scott said: My last thing is that all I care is what kind of product that I see in college basketball and it is not even close to what it was in the past. I don't care if they are better athletes or that they have better handles which mostly means they are not enforcing palming the ball any longer. And the reason for that difference is because players leave early. That’s it. It’s not because the fundamentals or skills were better 30 years ago, they weren’t, it’s because you were watching HOF guys play as juniors and seniors in college. Now all of those guys leave after a year or two max. Thats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, BGleas said: And the reason for that difference is because players leave early. That’s it. It’s not because the fundamentals or skills were better 30 years ago, they weren’t, it’s because you were watching HOF guys play as juniors and seniors in college. Now all of those guys leave after a year or two max. Thats it. I am done because you won't change my mind and I won't change yours. I am watching the football game so I am going back to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, IU Scott said: I am done because you won't change my mind and I won't change yours. I am watching the football game so I am going back to that. Um, ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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