5fouls Posted November 9, 2020 Report Share Posted November 9, 2020 42 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: Initially I'd say at driving the ball since Al seemed to be the only one who was being aggressive at times, but again when healthy, Rob's bread an butter was driving the ball. And if my memory serves me right, Rob was starting to do that again in the final 5 or 6 games last season. Plus with all that muscle he put on, he should be able to bully most guards in the conference. I hope they both are aggressive in that area along with Lander. Difference between the 2 is that Al always ends up on his a$$.....he's like a pinball. Rob looks like he's going to be a bulldozer. To your point on aggressiveness, look at the Free Throw Rate in the stats I provided, especially for conference. Al was hard to guard. Rob was not at all. Whether that has to do with aggressiveness, or Al simply being much better at beating his defender, I don't know. But, I find that stat, in particular, to be very telling in what a player is contributing on the offensive end of the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted November 9, 2020 Report Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: Cooper Bybee should be starting! I don't know how they figure stats like PER and WS, so I'll reserve comment by pleading ignorance (won't be the first time)... But just using your own observations and supporting that with individual stats, what phases of the game do you think Al is better at than Rob? Ball handling? Passing? Defense? Rebounding? Ball Handling: For the season, Rob's turnover percentage is actually worse than Al's. They were equal in conference. Defense: For the season, their defensive win shares are actually equal. Rob's were better in conference, and he passes the eye test as the better defender. But, the analytics say it's not as big of a gap as many would think. Al is unfairly maligned about his defense. No, he's not Oladipo on the defensive side of the ball. But, he's not a liability either. Offense: You left this one out. Al rates significantly better than Rob, and offense is where we struggled the most. And, the way today's game is played, a team needs to put an efficient offense on the floor. As a team, IU may be visibly better when Rob plays well offensively, but he does not do that enough, not nearly enough. Al is much more reliable on that end of the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted November 9, 2020 Report Share Posted November 9, 2020 To support my position that analytical statistics matter, take a look at the Top 8 in the Big Ten in both PER and W/S Per 40. There are no outliers. These are the conference's best players. Player Efficiency Rating 1. Luka Garza Iowa 34.4 2. Daniel Oturu Minnesota 30.7 3. Jalen Smith Maryland 29.3 4. Trevion Williams Purdue 27.6 5. Trayce Jackson-Davis Indiana 27.6 6. Mike Watkins Penn State 27.2 7. Xavier Tillman Michigan State 26.5 8. Kofi Cockburn Illinois 25.8 Win Shares Per 40 Minutes 1. Jalen Smith Maryland .249 2. Luka Garza Iowa .245 3. Xavier Tillman Michigan State .234 4. Daniel Oturu Minnesota .226 5. Trayce Jackson-Davis Indiana .225 6. Kaleb Wesson Ohio State .207 7. Kofi Cockburn Illinois .205 8. Cassius Winston Michigan State .204 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted November 9, 2020 Report Share Posted November 9, 2020 43 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Ball Handling: For the season, Rob's turnover percentage is actually worse than Al's. They were equal in conference. Per 40, Rob averaged 3.3 TOs, Al 2.8...Rob's a point guard and has the ball in his hands more, so I would expect his number to be slightly higher. 45 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Defense: For the season, their defensive win shares are actually equal. Rob's were better in conference, and he passes the eye test as the better defender. But, the analytics say it's not as big of a gap as many would think. Al is unfairly maligned about his defense. No, he's not Oladipo on the defensive side of the ball. But, he's not a liability either. He can be a liability at times, depending on who he's guarding...He can't handle big, strong guards who like to go to the hole...His closeouts are pretty good, but guys like Andres Feliz ate him alive. 47 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Offense: You left this one out. Al rates significantly better than Rob, and offense is where we struggled the most. And, the way today's game is played, a team needs to put an efficient offense on the floor. As a team, IU may be visibly better when Rob plays well offensively, but he does not do that enough, not nearly enough. Al is much more reliable on that end of the floor. Change that to IU may be visibly better when Rob is healthy 40 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Player Efficiency Rating 1. Luka Garza Iowa 34.4 2. Daniel Oturu Minnesota 30.7 3. Jalen Smith Maryland 29.3 4. Trevion Williams Purdue 27.6 5. Trayce Jackson-Davis Indiana 27.6 6. Mike Watkins Penn State 27.2 7. Xavier Tillman Michigan State 26.5 8. Kofi Cockburn Illinois 25.8 All of those guys (save Garza) are better than Cassius Winston? I think more than a few B10 coaches would disagree with you... Analytics can be an indicator, but in my opinion they aren't the be all end all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted November 9, 2020 Report Share Posted November 9, 2020 20 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Per 40, Rob averaged 3.3 TOs, Al 2.8...Rob's a point guard and has the ball in his hands more, so I would expect his number to be slightly higher. He can be a liability at times, depending on who he's guarding...He can't handle big, strong guards who like to go to the hole...His closeouts are pretty good, but guys like Andres Feliz ate him alive. Change that to IU may be visibly better when Rob is healthy All of those guys (save Garza) are better than Cassius Winston? I think more than a few B10 coaches would disagree with you... Analytics can be an indicator, but in my opinion they aren't the be all end all... Absolutely right on usage - pulling out stats by themselves is at best misleading, Rob as point has a much higher usage rate and unlike Al Rob’s TO’s are a result of his feeding others - passing and facilitating more. The flip side here, and I mentioned it earlier, is Rob was worse this season overall on taking care of the ball - I think that’s partly because he wasn’t healthy for much of the season and because he was partly hamstrung by an “offense” with 3 non-shooting forwards - he had very little space to work with because of the lineup we ran primarily — stats alone completely fail to consider that, that’s the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted November 9, 2020 Report Share Posted November 9, 2020 I see and hear everything you’re saying @5fouls but I still think Rob is the better player. I think if you hooked up CAM to a lie detector and asked him show is the better player...I’m guessing he’d say Rob too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted November 9, 2020 Report Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: All of those guys (save Garza) are better than Cassius Winston? I think more than a few B10 coaches would disagree with you... Analytics can be an indicator, but in my opinion they aren't the be all end all... Winston's numbers were down across the board from the previous season. That is, except for turnovers, which were up. Not surprising at all that his efficiency stats were not as good. Here is the same stat for the previous year. Win Shares Per 40 Minutes 1. Xavier Tillman Michigan State .240 2. Cassius Winston Michigan State .237 3. Jon Teske Michigan .222 4. Juwan Morgan Indiana .215 5. Bruno Fernando Maryland .214 6. Kaleb Wesson Ohio State .204 7. Ethan Happ Wisconsin .203 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted November 9, 2020 Report Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said: Absolutely right on usage - pulling out stats by themselves is at best misleading, Rob as point has a much higher usage rate and unlike Al Rob’s TO’s are a result of his feeding others - passing and facilitating more. The flip side here, and I mentioned it earlier, is Rob was worse this season overall on taking care of the ball - I think that’s partly because he wasn’t healthy for much of the season and because he was partly hamstrung by an “offense” with 3 non-shooting forwards - he had very little space to work with because of the lineup we ran primarily — stats alone completely fail to consider that, that’s the point In conference, Rob's usage was 19.8. Al's was 19.2. Now, Devonte, he had usage (29.5%). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted November 9, 2020 Report Share Posted November 9, 2020 5 hours ago, 5fouls said: I'm a pretty big believer in analytics (sorry @IU Scott) and, among rotation guys last season, Rob ranked 8th in both PER and W/S per 40 minutes (ahead of only Jerome and Armaan in both). Al was 6th in PER and 3rd in W/S per 40. Rk Player G GS MP PER ▼ TS% eFG% 3PAr FTr PProd ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/40 OBPM DBPM BPM 1 Cooper Bybee 5 0 5 30.3 1.500 1.500 1.000 .000 1 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 10.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 .219 11.7 4.2 15.9 2 Trayce Jackson-Davis 32 32 939 27.6 .600 .566 .000 .598 421 11.8 21.2 16.5 8.5 1.4 7.3 10.4 21.5 3.4 1.8 5.3 .225 6.3 3.5 9.8 3 Race Thompson 29 0 394 19.3 .525 .481 .125 .550 114 10.8 22.3 16.6 6.1 3.0 5.6 10.6 14.3 0.8 0.9 1.7 .170 2.4 4.9 7.4 4 Devonte Green 29 7 642 16.4 .498 .470 .585 .241 293 1.4 12.3 6.9 20.5 1.9 1.1 14.2 28.5 0.9 0.9 1.8 .114 4.6 1.9 6.5 5 Justin Smith 32 32 972 15.6 .543 .512 .147 .403 320 7.4 12.1 9.7 6.0 1.9 1.2 14.0 18.4 1.6 1.4 3.0 .123 1.9 2.4 4.3 6 Joey Brunk 32 31 627 15.5 .515 .522 .000 .301 212 9.8 20.4 15.1 6.7 0.6 2.0 13.4 19.6 0.8 0.9 1.8 .114 0.8 1.5 2.3 7 Aljami Durham 32 32 846 14.9 .592 .526 .445 .526 302 0.7 8.4 4.5 18.1 1.2 1.4 18.5 19.1 1.7 1.0 2.7 .129 2.2 2.0 4.2 8 De'Ron Davis 31 1 268 13.1 .496 .500 .014 .471 85 7.7 9.8 8.8 9.7 2.4 2.6 15.7 19.0 0.2 0.4 0.7 .099 -0.4 3.3 2.9 9 Rob Phinisee 27 16 626 12.8 .475 .437 .379 .280 217 1.1 11.1 6.1 28.4 2.5 1.1 20.1 20.6 0.5 1.0 1.4 .092 0.3 2.9 3.2 10 Damezi Anderson 18 0 223 8.6 .434 .389 .648 .185 58 5.7 14.3 10.0 13.7 1.0 1.6 18.1 16.1 0.1 0.3 0.4 .069 -0.9 1.9 0.9 11 Jerome Hunter 30 0 431 8.5 .486 .442 .612 .311 108 4.0 12.5 8.3 3.8 1.5 1.9 18.0 16.7 0.1 0.6 0.7 .067 -0.9 1.7 0.8 12 Armaan Franklin 32 9 441 7.9 .456 .424 .571 .348 122 0.5 13.0 6.8 17.1 1.1 0.8 18.7 18.2 0.1 0.6 0.6 .057 -2.0 1.6 -0.4 13 Jacquez Henderson 1 0 1 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 .019 -4.2 0.2 -3.9 14 Michael Shipp 1 0 1 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 .019 -4.2 0.2 -3.9 15 Nathan Childress 5 0 6 -12.8 .000 .000 .000 .000 1 38.5 19.0 28.7 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 33.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 -.276 -15.2 -14.8 -30.0 16 Adrian Chapman 1 0 1 -46.6 .000 .000 .000 .000 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 50.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 -.648 -37.6 -19.4 -57.0 Thanks for the hard work...hard to read but this supports my eye test assertion that our back court was mediocre to poor compared to our B1G competition. Now...given injuries etc we may have excuses with Rob but fact is we need better guard play. Al can be pretty good as a spot up shooter and gives energy on the defensive end of the floor...but to me he is not a starting 2 in this league. To me he is a quintessential 6 man spark plug off the bench. If he wants to be a leader on this team that is the best role for him from a team perspective. I mean I wasn’t sure if he would even be playable when he first got here but he has bought in and worked hard to improve but he is still far from a skilled 2. He has trouble finishing in traffic, not the best pushing the ball, and don’t get me started on his floater or especially the right handed runner. But again he brings energy and passion. It’s hard for me to see Leal or Galloway getting major minutes this year but I absolutely thought Armaan would steal quite a few from him. If we go small Al will start with Rob and Khristian but I anticipated Hunter in that 3 roll and Rob and Khristian attacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted November 9, 2020 Report Share Posted November 9, 2020 2 hours ago, 5fouls said: Winston's numbers were down across the board from the previous season. That is, except for turnovers, which were up. Not surprising at all that his efficiency stats were not as good. Here is the same stat for the previous year. Win Shares Per 40 Minutes 1. Xavier Tillman Michigan State .240 2. Cassius Winston Michigan State .237 3. Jon Teske Michigan .222 4. Juwan Morgan Indiana .215 5. Bruno Fernando Maryland .214 6. Kaleb Wesson Ohio State .204 7. Ethan Happ Wisconsin .203 Is it me, of do both of those stats (PER and WS per 40) seem to favor big men? Anyway, I'm not looking to crap on Al. He's been a much better player than I thought he would be when we recruited him. He's worked hard, and progressed pretty well. My hat is off to him... I just think Rob has a higher ceiling...if he can stay healthy... And I would like nothing more for Al than to see him have a big year and helping IU to a top 3 finish... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaroonRebel Posted November 10, 2020 Report Share Posted November 10, 2020 I think we tend to pick out positive stretches from our favorite players and project them as the norm for that player. I think Rob looked really good the first ten games of his career, but after the head injury his production was inconsistent. Last year the injury to his stomach meant he never really produced good numbers accept a hand full of games late. If you are looking at which player Al or Rob is most likely to produce for you this year then the numbers say Al. Al appears to be more durable and has shown to be the more reliable shooter. I think Lander is going to run the point(the majority of the minutes) and Rob will see back minutes at point. Al will see the majority of the minutes at the 2 with Rob playing this position when they run a three guard lineup or we run into foul trouble. I like Rob and think he has great potential, just think Lander is going to be the better PG and Al the better shooter. I could be wrong, my wife usually thinks I am. Even if this is his role at some point in the season, he is going to see at least 18-22 minutes a game which may suit him better. I really think you will see a three guard lineup during long stretches of game play. Lander, RP, Al, with Race and TJD with the floor spread. I think this is the most complete backcourt we have had in years. We can start three guards and still have subs. Go hoosiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted November 10, 2020 Report Share Posted November 10, 2020 On 11/4/2020 at 8:50 AM, IndySportsPartizan said: Wasn't sure whether to end that with .. or ?? Reports from practice are that Galloway is tearing it up. He is obv a coaches kid and just a straight killer. Seems like Archie's type of player. A lot of people over the past week are indicating that it seems like he very well may end up starting. Are you the mole feeding Jon? We've been discussing this on HSN for days. Thanks for the scoop ISP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th&Jackson Posted November 10, 2020 Report Share Posted November 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, Reacher said: Are you the mole feeding Jon? We've been discussing this on HSN for days. Thanks for the scoop ISP! Embedded Moles is a great name for a band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowling Posted November 11, 2020 Report Share Posted November 11, 2020 https://hoosierstateofmind.com/2020/11/11/47012/?utm_campaign=FanSided+Daily&utm_source=FanSided+Daily&utm_medium=email Go Hoosiers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted November 11, 2020 Report Share Posted November 11, 2020 9 minutes ago, snowling said: https://hoosierstateofmind.com/2020/11/11/47012/?utm_campaign=FanSided+Daily&utm_source=FanSided+Daily&utm_medium=email Go Hoosiers! https://hoosierstateofmind.com/2020/11/11/47012/?utm_campaign=FanSided+Daily&utm_source=FanSided+Daily&utm_medium=email Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGIUAndy Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 Does Rothstein actually know anything? What are the “beat” guys saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuckerkorn Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 I don't know exactly how to interpret the possibility that TG could be a starter. On one hand it isn't a great statement about returning/experienced players but on the other hand it would be outstanding to have an incoming freshman that is an immediate difference maker. The most important thing is simply that it sounds like he will very likely be a significant contributor - which is really all you can hope for from a inexperienced, young player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 41 minutes ago, Zuckerkorn said: I don't know exactly how to interpret the possibility that TG could be a starter. On one hand it isn't a great statement about returning/experienced players but on the other hand it would be outstanding to have an incoming freshman that is an immediate difference maker. The most important thing is simply that it sounds like he will very likely be a significant contributor - which is really all you can hope for from a inexperienced, young player. Exactly. Do I think he'll start? No. Am I encouraged to hear about how much he has impressed? Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 48 minutes ago, Zuckerkorn said: I don't know exactly how to interpret the possibility that TG could be a starter. On one hand it isn't a great statement about returning/experienced players but on the other hand it would be outstanding to have an incoming freshman that is an immediate difference maker. The most important thing is simply that it sounds like he will very likely be a significant contributor - which is really all you can hope for from a inexperienced, young player. Yep, just the fact that he's vying for minutes is encouraging. He's one of those "glue" kids that'll be essential in the next few years. Sprinkle in some 4/5 star kids and let Archie manage it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 Not to beat a dead horse, but I concur. Starter or not, it sounds like he's going to get meaningful minutes and I think that's what matters in the long run. That's more than most of us were expecting, especially with our lack of depth at the wing position recently. The news is a pleasant surprise; I'm not necessarily taking it as a warning about the players perceived to be in front of him on the depth chart. edit/add: May also be a good replacement for the role that Justin Smith didn't want: good defense, but won't be relied on as much offensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 In HS, TG had plenty of talent with him on the floor. The kid is a team player. Winning is the ultimate goal, and he is used to getting that done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 On 11/9/2020 at 1:44 PM, 5fouls said: To support my position that analytical statistics matter, take a look at the Top 8 in the Big Ten in both PER and W/S Per 40. There are no outliers. These are the conference's best players. Player Efficiency Rating 1. Luka Garza Iowa 34.4 2. Daniel Oturu Minnesota 30.7 3. Jalen Smith Maryland 29.3 4. Trevion Williams Purdue 27.6 5. Trayce Jackson-Davis Indiana 27.6 6. Mike Watkins Penn State 27.2 7. Xavier Tillman Michigan State 26.5 8. Kofi Cockburn Illinois 25.8 Win Shares Per 40 Minutes 1. Jalen Smith Maryland .249 2. Luka Garza Iowa .245 3. Xavier Tillman Michigan State .234 4. Daniel Oturu Minnesota .226 5. Trayce Jackson-Davis Indiana .225 6. Kaleb Wesson Ohio State .207 7. Kofi Cockburn Illinois .205 8. Cassius Winston Michigan State .204 Did you go over these with Scott? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaroonRebel Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 Also coach leaks out he might see significant playing time to media, and the older players get the message. I better start working in practice or I may be on the bench. Most coaches are very good at playing psychological games and using the media to push their agenda. Playing time is limited and hearing it from the coach's mouth is one thing. Hearing it repeated in the media multiple times can sometimes really send the message home. Just a thought. Go Hoosiers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted November 15, 2020 Report Share Posted November 15, 2020 On 11/12/2020 at 8:06 AM, tdhoosier said: Not to beat a dead horse, but I concur. Starter or not, it sounds like he's going to get meaningful minutes and I think that's what matters in the long run. That's more than most of us were expecting, especially with our lack of depth at the wing position recently. The news is a pleasant surprise; I'm not necessarily taking it as a warning about the players perceived to be in front of him on the depth chart. edit/add: May also be a good replacement for the role that Justin Smith didn't want: good defense, but won't be relied on as much offensively. If he can play close to the level of on ball defense Smith played that would be huge, because he isn't going to be a dud on offense (which is exactly what Smith was playing the 3). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ufo33 Posted November 15, 2020 Report Share Posted November 15, 2020 Race, TJD, Hunter, Galloway, Lander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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