IPFW post game

[KoB2011]

1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Disagree. We're talking about subjective perception of a player's impact based on, what, his body language? Watford. Kawhi Leanord. Tim Duncan. Etc. There are tons of guys who are exceptional contributors at the college and NBA level who don't wear their hearts on their sleeves. Victor is my favorite Hoosier, in part because of his incredible charisma and passion on the floor. But Watford is another, a quiet killer. Leanord as well. Rob's problem right now has nothing to do with his persona, and that has nothing to do with his leadership. Piss poor attitude? There's no reason to say that. His problem is that he is not hitting shots. 37% outside shooter last year, this year he's struggling, and he's making too many TO's. He's had some great games, and some real clunkers this year. Hopefully he gets more consistent, this team needs him to.

I think the big red flag is the turnovers.  It isn't just that he is making them.  He's stepping out of bounds for no reason, he's losing his dribble with no one around him, he's making incredibly dumb passes.  It's a lot of lazy, unforced errors. 

[Bushmage]

10 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Disagree. We're talking about subjective perception of a player's impact based on, what, his body language? Watford. Kawhi Leanord. Tim Duncan. Etc. There are tons of guys who are exceptional contributors at the college and NBA level who don't wear their hearts on their sleeves. Victor is my favorite Hoosier, in part because of his incredible charisma and passion on the floor. But Watford is another, a quiet killer. Leanord as well. Rob's problem right now has nothing to do with his persona, and that has nothing to do with his leadership. Piss poor attitude? There's no reason to say that. His problem is that he is not hitting shots. 37% outside shooter last year, this year he's struggling, and he's making too many TO's. He's had some great games, and some real clunkers this year. Hopefully he gets more consistent, this team needs him to.

During the Duke game, Devonte slowed down and didn't cross half court right away because Archie was telling him something. Devonte crossed the court, held his hand up to obviously run a play. We switched off the baseline and Rob moved up from the wing to take the first pass. Rob steps just inside the 3 line and takes a long 2, Archie was furious as they ran back on defense. He simply doesn't care to be involved on a number of possessions. We can argue all day as to the reason why or if its accidental, but it happens too often for me (and apparently a lot of others) to not think its his level of commitment to the team. He tunes out if it becomes too off ball or difficult for him.

[FW_Hoosier]

4 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Disagree. We're talking about subjective perception of a player's impact based on, what, his body language? Watford. Kawhi Leanord. Tim Duncan. Etc. There are tons of guys who are exceptional contributors at the college and NBA level who don't wear their hearts on their sleeves. Victor is my favorite Hoosier, in part because of his incredible charisma and passion on the floor. But Watford is another, a quiet killer. Leanord as well. Rob's problem right now has nothing to do with his persona, and that has nothing to do with his leadership. Piss poor attitude? There's no reason to say that. His problem is that he is not hitting shots. 37% outside shooter last year, this year he's struggling, and he's making too many TO's. He's had some great games, and some real clunkers this year. Hopefully he gets more consistent, this team needs him to.

These were the exact same defenses that were used for Cutler.  It’s just fans’ subjective perception, you don’t have to be vocal to be a leader, etc., etc.  The proof is in the pudding.  No one questioned Watford, Leonard, or Duncan because their approach to the game got results.  A leader helps his team win games.  Rob is not doing that, at all.  He’s not a quiet killer.  He’s sloppy, and yes, he has a bad attitude.  We saw it last year when he tuned out Crean, and we’re seeing it again this year. You would never see any of the three players you mentioned act like he did in the post-game presser on Monday.

[cohete15]

I don’t know what Rob’s problem is from an attitude standpoint, but I know he’s just an average player. Have seen 3.5 years of the same. Good game, bad game that come in near equal amounts = average. Like I said after Louisville...stop expecting more out of him. That’s not who he is. I do think he’s pretty good defensively when he wants to be, however. 

The team lacks a leader. The closest thing we have is Hartman and McRoberts. Among other things, this is why Hartman needs to be the starter at the 3. He’s not on the floor enough to lead very effectively. 

This team lacks talent, there’s no doubt. But this team has enough of it to win games under Archie. The true problem is lack of leadership......just like last year, smh. 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

These were the exact same defenses that were used for Cutler.  It’s just fans’ subjective perception, you don’t have to be vocal to be a leader, etc., etc.  The proof is in the pudding.  No one questioned Watford, Leonard, or Duncan because their approach to the game got results.  A leader helps his team win games.  Rob is not doing that, at all.  He’s not a quiet killer.  He’s sloppy, and yes, he has a bad attitude.  We saw it last year when he tuned out Crean, and we’re seeing it again this year. You would never see any of the three players you mentioned act like he did in the post-game presser on Monday.

There were a lot of people questioning Watford early in his IU career. IIRC, much of the criticism was based on a perception that he was soft. I vividly recall the now infamous label someone put on him as "Cookie". Boy did that shake things up on the boards for awhile.

IMO, the key difference is that Watford improved as he matured. Part of that was due to his hard work and attitude, part can be attributed to the people he played with. Rob has improved defensively, which is great, but he was also counted on to be one of this teams' primary scorers this year, and that has not happened consistently. It could very well be that those expectations are causing him to doubt himself, his shot, etc. and those misgivings are reflective in his play. He has a half of a season to figure this out, a half of a season to shape the legacy that he leaves at IU. Hopefully, he pulls out of these doldrums and finishes this season, and his career, on a high note.

[Hoosierhoopster]

33 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

These were the exact same defenses that were used for Cutler.  It’s just fans’ subjective perception, you don’t have to be vocal to be a leader, etc., etc.  The proof is in the pudding.  No one questioned Watford, Leonard, or Duncan because their approach to the game got results.  A leader helps his team win games.  Rob is not doing that, at all.  He’s not a quiet killer.  He’s sloppy, and yes, he has a bad attitude.  We saw it last year when he tuned out Crean, and we’re seeing it again this year. You would never see any of the three players you mentioned act like he did in the post-game presser on Monday.

Not sure if you were on our board back then, but actually for two years many called Watford soft, repeatedly complained about how he got stuffed at the rim, called him stupid names questioning his masculinity, and were very down on him. Now he's a revered former Hoosier. Your opinion of his attitude is totally subjective. His attitude, as repeatedly commented on by CAM, is great. He's either the hardest working kid on the team, or one of them, every day. No question he has not been playing well, at least consistently, that's certainly fair. But saying things like piss poor attitude, etc., is just not warranted. Obviously he was pissed off in the presser. Hopefully he gets it together, when he plays well -- and scores efficiently - the team wins. This year's team needs his scoring. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Not sure if you were on our board back then, but actually for two years many called Watford soft, repeatedly complained about how he got stuffed at the rim, called him stupid names questioning his masculinity, and were very down on him. Now he's a revered former Hoosier. Your opinion of his attitude is totally subjective. His attitude, as repeatedly commented on by CAM, is great. He's either the hardest working kid on the team, or one of them, every day. No question he has not been playing well, at least consistently, that's certainly fair. But saying things like piss poor attitude, etc., is just not warranted. Obviously he was pissed off in the presser. Hopefully he gets it together, when he plays well -- and scores efficiently - the team wins. This year's team needs his scoring. 

See the post one above yours.....great minds must think alike

[Hoosierhoopster]

5 minutes ago, Jerry Lundergaard said:

There were a lot of people questioning Watford early in his IU career. IIRC, much of the criticism was based on a perception that he was soft. I vividly recall the now infamous label someone put on him as "Cookie". Boy did that shake things up on the boards for awhile.

IMO, the key difference is that Watford improved as he matured. Part of that was due to his hard work and attitude, part can be attributed to the people he played with. Rob has improved defensively, which is great, but he was also counted on to be one of this teams' primary scorers this year, and that has not happened consistently. It could very well be that those expectations are causing him to doubt himself, his shot, etc. and those misgivings are reflective in his play. He has a half of a season to figure this out, a half of a season to shape the legacy that he leaves at IU. Hopefully, he pulls out of these doldrums and finishes this season, and his career, on a high note.

Oh yes, "cookie," I remember that, and the poster, well. Wonder if he would be so ridiculous as to call Watford "cookie" now? That idiotic name-calling was based on Wat's defense, and early struggles, as a young frosh and then soph, in going to the rim. Wat ended up defending point guards, and exceptionally well. 

Your post is entirely fair. Rob needs to get his game together, and consistently, for the team to win. The point about comparing Wat's improvement and Rob's is also fair. Rob started off really well the first half of last season, and then things went south in a bad way the second half. This year he's been inconsistent. Year is still young though, hopefully he gets his footing and confidence under CAM and plays more consistently. The TO's definitely need to come down.

[KoB2011]

The difference in Rob and Watford, is Watford got those labels because he just had physical limitations and it frankly wasn't fair.  Rob's issues aren't physical right now - he just continues to make lazy, unforced turnovers.  That's what screams I don't care, not his post game presser or stoic demeanor. 

[FW_Hoosier]

15 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Not sure if you were on our board back then, but actually for two years many called Watford soft, repeatedly complained about how he got stuffed at the rim, called him stupid names questioning his masculinity, and were very down on him. Now he's a revered former Hoosier. Your opinion of his attitude is totally subjective. His attitude, as repeatedly commented on by CAM, is great. He's either the hardest working kid on the team, or one of them, every day. No question he has not been playing well, at least consistently, that's certainly fair. But saying things like piss poor attitude, etc., is just not warranted. Obviously he was pissed off in the presser. Hopefully he gets it together, when he plays well -- and scores efficiently - the team wins. This year's team needs his scoring. 

I was not on the boards back then.  But an underclassman being criticized for playing soft is pretty different than a senior being criticized for having a bad attitude.  CAM is going to try and build Rob up no matter what, as he should.  But like I said, putting in the work in practice is meaningless if he’s not bringing leadership on the court.  You need to earn the type of nonchalant attitude Johnson has shown on and off the court with solid play, and he is not doing that.  I’m not holding my breath that he’ll ever figure it out consistently this season, and I’m looking forward to him graduating.  

[Bushmage]

the problem with Rob even if its just consistency and not attitude is we are almost halfway into his final season and he can still throw six turnovers in a game and turn ice cold offensively. There is a dwindling amount of relevant time to remain consistent.

[Hoosierhoopster]

34 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

The difference in Rob and Watford, is Watford got those labels because he just had physical limitations and it frankly wasn't fair.  Rob's issues aren't physical right now - he just continues to make lazy, unforced turnovers.  That's what screams I don't care, not his post game presser or stoic demeanor. 

No not really -- Wat was criticized not just for perceived physical limitations (which were perceived wrongly, he obviously got stronger and improved his lateral quickness, ending up defending at a high level) but also for his perceived attitude. There were people wishing he would transfer, and his "attitude" was often called out as a reason. Same ol same ol. Rob's TO's are definitely a problem. Whether they're a result of "laziness" though is entirely subjective. Boneheaded, due to poor decision-making, unforced, ok. I don't think he's lazy, I don't think he doesn't care, and I think that's unfair. It's also unfair to just forget how good he was the first half of last season. He was outstanding. Then he went way south. Whether he can raise his game again remains to be seen, but it's not like he hasn't had some strong games this season, and that those games didn't make a big difference in the team's play. I'm not throwing in the towel on him.

[Hoosierhoopster]

2 minutes ago, Bushmage said:

the problem with Rob even if its just consistency and not attitude is we are almost halfway into his final season and he can still throw six turnovers in a game and turn ice cold offensively. There is a dwindling amount of relevant time to remain consistent.

Fair

[5fouls]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Not sure if you were on our board back then, but actually for two years many called Watford soft, repeatedly complained about how he got stuffed at the rim, called him stupid names questioning his masculinity, and were very down on him. Now he's a revered former Hoosier. Your opinion of his attitude is totally subjective. His attitude, as repeatedly commented on by CAM, is great. He's either the hardest working kid on the team, or one of them, every day. No question he has not been playing well, at least consistently, that's certainly fair. But saying things like piss poor attitude, etc., is just not warranted. Obviously he was pissed off in the presser. Hopefully he gets it together, when he plays well -- and scores efficiently - the team wins. This year's team needs his scoring. 

I can safely say that Rob Johnson will not be a revered former Hoosier.  

[BGleas]

3 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I think the big red flag is the turnovers.  It isn't just that he is making them.  He's stepping out of bounds for no reason, he's losing his dribble with no one around him, he's making incredibly dumb passes.  It's a lot of lazy, unforced errors. 

Some of the turnovers are just mind-boggling. Literally just dribbling in open space and losing control of the ball, spotting up out of bounds, throwing soft, one-handed passes that get stolen and turn into layup. Those are mistakes a freshmen makes, maybe a sophomore. I'm sure RoJo is a great kid/person and I don't question his effort or dedication to that game, the guy has clearly worked hard over four years at IU, but it's just kind of disappointing/sad that he hasn't developed into that senior, leader guard that by his fourth year is just so experienced he can lead a team like this, make big shots and have that senior swagger.

We've all seen that type of player, usually at Wisconsin or some place like that, and I remember when Rob came in we all thought he would be a great, complimentary guard that maybe as a senior could be all big-ten, but unfortunately it just hasn't happened. 

[BobSaccamanno]

This may not be popular, and I am not being a Rob apologist, but I'd be surprised if this team could be successful without Rob performing.  We are going to need him to focus and hopefully score double digits and at more opportune times.  If he doesn't get 12-15 every night out, our offense is too stale.  I hope Archie can build him up.  He had some TO's that are unforgivable.  There was a pass he made into the post that chubby guys on the back half of the HPER would not have made.  He's about to be a second semester senior.  Lot of lackluster guys have put it together those last 3 months.

We need him to become mentally tough.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

Some of the turnovers are just mind-boggling. Literally just dribbling in open space and losing control of the ball, spotting up out of bounds, throwing soft, one-handed passes that get stolen and turn into layup. Those are mistakes a freshmen makes, maybe a sophomore. I'm sure RoJo is a great kid/person and I don't question his effort or dedication to that game, the guy has clearly worked hard over four years at IU, but it's just kind of disappointing/sad that he hasn't developed into that senior, leader guard that by his fourth year is just so experienced he can lead a team like this, make big shots and have that senior swagger.

We've all seen that type of player, usually at Wisconsin or some place like that, and I remember when Rob came in we all thought he would be a great, complimentary guard that maybe as a senior could be all big-ten, but unfortunately it just hasn't happened. 

I'm sure you remember you've posted several times that Rob was playing great this year, or was doing a really good job beyond his shooting. I'm not here defending Rob's turnovers, but I am going to take issue with the posts calling him lazy and just dog piling all over him while ignoring the good he has brought. You earlier commented the team likely would not be successful without Rob scoring well. That's fair, and appears to be accurate. He's not playing consistently well, he's turning it over way more than he should, but he has had big games and he has contributed at a high level defensively in several games, all now being ignored for the sake of dog piling. I don't buy into that.

[Hoosierhoopster]

5 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

This may not be popular, and I am not being a Rob apologist, but I'd be surprised if this team could be successful without Rob performing.  We are going to need him to focus and hopefully score double digits and at more opportune times.  If he doesn't get 12-15 every night out, our offense is too stale.  I hope Archie can build him up.  He had some TO's that are unforgivable.  There was a pass he made into the post that chubby guys on the back half of the HPER would not have made.  He's about to be a second semester senior.  Lot of lackluster guys have put it together those last 3 months.

We need him to become mentally tough.  

It's not popular, but I think all of this is accurate and fair. 

[rico]

RoJo best years came when he was a "coat tail" rider.  Opponents didn't have him in focus.  Yogi, Troy, JBJ, etc. were the opposition's focal point.  He has slowly returned to who he is.  A complimentary player, only this year there ain't too much out there to compliment him with.  I have never, in all my years of watching IU basketball, have I seen a player like him.  4-year starter, 1,000 point scorer, but meh.  I don't know of a comp that ever wore the candy stripes.  JSMH.

[BGleas]

7 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I'm sure you remember you've posted several times that Rob was playing great this year, or was doing a really good job beyond his shooting. I'm not here defending Rob's turnovers, but I am going to take issue with the posts calling him lazy and just dog piling all over him while ignoring the good he has brought. You earlier commented the team likely would not be successful without Rob scoring well. That's fair, and appears to be accurate. He's not playing consistently well, he's turning it over way more than he should, but he has had big games and he has contributed at a high level defensively in several games, all now being ignored for the sake of dog piling. I don't buy into that.

Yes, and I went out of my way in the post you quoted to not call him lazy, evening saying I'm not questioning his effort and it's clear he's worked hard. But, with that said his turnovers are atrocious. They're the kind of turnovers that turn into layups and open transition three's for the opponent. As Archie has said, they're "pick-six" turnovers. They're not turnovers that should be coming from a 4-year, starting guard. 

With all that said, we need RoJo's defense on the perimeter, which for the most part this season it has been really good, and it played a key role in the ND win. I've never advocated, or I don't believe I have, in benching him. The bottom line is the team needs him to become a consistent shooter/scorer, he's really the only one that can. Guys like Newkirk, McRoberts, Al, and even Hartman are who they are as far as scorers, RoJo is the only one, and maybe Green, that at least have the potential to be a consistent perimeter threat, and the team desperately needs it from him. 

But man, he just flat out needs to be better. You expect more from a 4-year, starting senior. 

[NCHoosier32]

On 12/19/2017 at 10:19 AM, IU Scott said:

I just can't do that because no matter how bad we play or upset I get I will still watch every game.  To me if I can't stick with this team during the bad times then I don't deserve to come back when things get better so I will be watching Thursday night.

this is what i'm saying.  can't stop watching a team because it's a down year.

[IowaHoosierFan]

I think Johnson was told he is not an NBA caliber player and would never play there.  I think it took a toll on him and he just doesn't have the fire.  Nothing wrong with that, but its hard to defend a guy who gives up on plays, can't shoot consistently and turns the ball over a way to high a rate.  He should be coming off the bench supporting the young guys on the team who need the experience for next year.

[rico]

1 minute ago, NCHoosier32 said:

this is what i'm saying.  can't stop watching a team because it's a down year.

A down year is one thing, multiple down years is another.

[NCHoosier32]

Just now, rico said:

A down year is one thing, multiple down years is another.

actually for me it isn't.  i've watched them for over 35 years and i'm just not the type to stop supporting and watching because they aren't very good.  i guess that's why i am also a Cubs fan.  i just can't imagine picking another team to support because they are good.  

[rico]

3 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

actually for me it isn't.  i've watched them for over 35 years and i'm just not the type to stop supporting and watching because they aren't very good.  i guess that's why i am also a Cubs fan.  i just can't imagine picking another team to support because they are good.  

IU basketball and the Cubs are two different animals.