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Rise of MSU and MU recruiting - good or bad


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I saw this article on usatoday: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2020/11/11/juwan-howard-tom-izzo-michigan-michigan-state-rivarly-recruiting/6246603002/ and it got me thinking about whether this is a good or bad for IU.

An argument for good: improving the conference is good for IU - sets the bar higher

An argument for bad: we could risk falling down the B1G pecking order

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3 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

As long as Howard is the coach at MU, I'm not real worried.  He has a lot to prove in the X's & O's department.

Howard has probably one of the best crew of assistant coaches in the B1G. I’m sure they are filling in the missing holes in his coaching skill tree.

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The only way it is good is if Indiana can also step up its game and become much more consistent in terms of recruiting and the oncourt product. 

If IU, Michigan, MSU, Wisconsin, OSU, etc can get the Big Ten back to being a juggernaut conference then its good. 

Yes, I know the Big Ten has been very deep the last 4 or so years, but I mean top-heavy like the ACC where multiple teams are project ad legit champion contenders. 

The Big Ten has been good more due to depth, not top level contenders. 

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40 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Howard has probably one of the best crew of assistant coaches in the B1G. I’m sure they are filling in the missing holes in his coaching skill tree.

Martelli is a quality guy.  Assume he's at least doing most of the bench coaching.

Let's see how he sustains the program  Penny proved that anyone with star power can have initial success.

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18 minutes ago, BGleas said:

The only way it is good is if Indiana can also step up its game and become much more consistent in terms of recruiting and the oncourt product. 

If IU, Michigan, MSU, Wisconsin, OSU, etc can get the Big Ten back to being a juggernaut conference then its good. 

Yes, I know the Big Ten has been very deep the last 4 or so years, but I mean top-heavy like the ACC where multiple teams are project ad legit champion contenders. 

The Big Ten has been good more due to depth, not top level contenders. 

Agreed...perfectly said....but we also need to keep improving or we could fall further behind. We thought with Belien leaving we had a window to leap from Michigan but that ain’t likely going to happen easily. They are going to continue to put talented teams on the floor. After all...I had a Michigan alum in my office and we briefly talked about the football game. He said he wasnt too worried about the loss. We are a basketball school now....kinda opposite for us lol. 

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1 minute ago, FKIM01 said:

Martelli is a quality guy.  Assume he's at least doing most of the bench coaching.

Let's see how he sustains the program  Penny proved that anyone with star power can have initial success.

Oh no doubt a lot of work being an NCAA coach. I know Howard was an assistant in Miami for a while so I’m sure he learned a lot under Riley and Spoelstra.

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6 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

As long as Howard is the coach at MU, I'm not real worried.  He has a lot to prove in the X's & O's department.

Howard is charismatic, has out of this world enthusiasm and he has an NBA resume...

If you watch the 30 for 30 on the Fab Five, he probably had more to do with Webber, Rose, King, and Jackson going to Ann Arbor than Fisher did...he was the first to commit, and he sold the others on it...so he's been a great recruiter for a long time 😁

But it remains to be seen if he can coach. Great assistants can sure make a difference, but in the end, he makes the decisions...

We'll see...

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1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

Howard is charismatic, and has out of this world enthusiasm and he has an NBA resume...

If you watch the 30 for 30 on the Fab Five, he probably had more to do with Webber, Rose, King, and Jackson going to Ann Arbor than Fisher did...he was the first to commit, and he sold the others on it...so he's been a great recruiter for a long time 😁

But it remains to be seen if he can coach. Great assistants can sure make a difference, but in the end, he makes the decisions...

We'll see...

Very well said.

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If the nba allows high schoolers to entire directly, some teams with 2-3 one and done are going to take an immediate and sudden step back, at least for a year.  For instance, Duke, UK, and michigan with 2 or more likely one and dones and then the following year they replace that talent with 4 star type guys that may or may not be ready to be major contributors, at least not like a top 10 or 15 draft pick would be able.  

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1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

Howard is charismatic, has out of this world enthusiasm and he has an NBA resume...

If you watch the 30 for 30 on the Fab Five, he probably had more to do with Webber, Rose, King, and Jackson going to Ann Arbor than Fisher did...he was the first to commit, and he sold the others on it...so he's been a great recruiter for a long time 😁

But it remains to be seen if he can coach. Great assistants can sure make a difference, but in the end, he makes the decisions...

We'll see...

Well I think Ed Martin and his cash had more to do with Webber and rose coming to Michigan

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On 11/11/2020 at 4:22 PM, FKIM01 said:

Martelli is a quality guy.  Assume he's at least doing most of the bench coaching.

Let's see how he sustains the program  Penny proved that anyone with star power can have initial success.

Not really sure I get the logic behind dismissing the coaching chops of guys like Hardaway and Howard after 1-2 seasons, while also giving Archie a pass for getting essentially the same results through three seasons, and being projected for another middle of the pack, ~.500 conference finish in Year 4.

I get that you think former NBA players can’t coach, but what evidence is there that the IU program is much better off than Memphis or Michigan?  Archie is a former player as well — is he a better coach than Hardaway and Howard just because he was a worse player?

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4 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Not really sure I get the logic behind dismissing the coaching chops of guys like Hardaway and Howard after 1-2 seasons, while also giving Archie a pass for getting essentially the same results through three seasons, and being projected for another middle of the pack, ~.500 conference finish in Year 4.

I get that you think former NBA players can’t coach, but what evidence is there that the IU program is much better off than Memphis or Michigan?  Archie is a former player as well — is he a better coach than Hardaway and Howard just because he was a worse player?

I think it had to do with how other top NBA players did coaching at the college level. IT, Drexel, Ewing have not done well coaching in college.  I also think it has to do with the fact that they never had coached at the college level and didn't work themselves up the ladder of college coaching.  I think most see them as guys who can recruit but don't see them as good game coaches.  We saw Archie win big at Dayton and saw him leaf a college program to the elite 8.

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On 11/11/2020 at 11:49 AM, GaloisGroupe said:

I saw this article on usatoday: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2020/11/11/juwan-howard-tom-izzo-michigan-michigan-state-rivarly-recruiting/6246603002/ and it got me thinking about whether this is a good or bad for IU.

An argument for good: improving the conference is good for IU - sets the bar higher

An argument for bad: we could risk falling down the B1G pecking order

Is it good we are picked 8th in the Big Ten every year.  These questions all have the same answer.

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21 hours ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Not really sure I get the logic behind dismissing the coaching chops of guys like Hardaway and Howard after 1-2 seasons, while also giving Archie a pass for getting essentially the same results through three seasons, and being projected for another middle of the pack, ~.500 conference finish in Year 4.

I get that you think former NBA players can’t coach, but what evidence is there that the IU program is much better off than Memphis or Michigan?  Archie is a former player as well — is he a better coach than Hardaway and Howard just because he was a worse player?

Easy, Coach Miller needs to be the one.  We can't have another failure at getting our next "Bob Knight" which is exactly what we're looking for.  He is going to get more and more rope until there is no coming back and we have painted ourselves into another spot to not get the next Bob Knight.  Or he is going to turn the corner and we're going to start climbing those steps to prominence again and step on the big stage and announce that IU is back boys and lay the hammer down.  

We have no middle ground at IU.  Our fanbase will not allow for mediocrity.  We can't live in the middle of the pack and sweet 16s.  These results are for other schools.  They are not acceptable for IU.  If we don't content for a B1G conference title and a Elite 8 in the next 2 seasons (including this year) CAM is going to lose a large majority of the fanbase.  6 years without a legit shot at a title will make it hard for him to recover.  He needs to do something soon.  Although Covid is giving him a bit more rope.

Coach can recruit. He is getting talent to come here. Now he needs to have that talent produce on the floor.

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30 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Easy, Coach Miller needs to be the one.  We can't have another failure at getting our next "Bob Knight" which is exactly what we're looking for.  He is going to get more and more rope until there is no coming back and we have painted ourselves into another spot to not get the next Bob Knight.  Or he is going to turn the corner and we're going to start climbing those steps to prominence again and step on the big stage and announce that IU is back boys and lay the hammer down.  

We have no middle ground at IU.  Our fanbase will not allow for mediocrity.  We can't live in the middle of the pack and sweet 16s.  These results are for other schools.  They are not acceptable for IU.  If we don't content for a B1G conference title and a Elite 8 in the next 2 seasons (including this year) CAM is going to lose a large majority of the fanbase.  6 years without a legit shot at a title will make it hard for him to recover.  He needs to do something soon.  Although Covid is giving him a bit more rope.

Coach can recruit. He is getting talent to come here. Now he needs to have that talent produce on the floor.

That is the problem with our fan base if you ar elooking for the next Bob Knight.  If that is what you are waiting it probably won't happen because there are very few coaches like him.

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13 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

That is the problem with our fan base if you ar elooking for the next Bob Knight.  If that is what you are waiting it probably won't happen because there are very few coaches like him.

Back in the day, I am sure our fan base was clamoring for the next Branch McCracken?

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2 minutes ago, rico said:

Back in the day, I am sure our fan base was clamoring for the next Branch McCracken?

Look UCLA is still comparing everyne to Wooden and for the most part they are still looking.  They drove away a guy who went to 3 straight final fours so to me they will never be satisfied with any coach.

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3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Look UCLA is still comparing everyne to Wooden and for the most part they are still looking.  They drove away a guy who went to 3 straight final fours so to me they will never be satisfied with any coach.

Yeah, what does that have to do with us?  

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9 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Because our fan base is the same way with RMK and will compare any coach to him which is not fair

I am looking for a coach who can do both recruit and win in the B1G and then in the tourney.  I want Elite 8 and Final Fours every few years with a chance at a national title every 7-10 years.  I know i am asking for a lot, but why not. If i wanted to settle for mediocrity i would be a Purdue fan

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8 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I am looking for a coach who can do both recruit and win in the B1G and then in the tourney.  I want Elite 8 and Final Fours every few years with a chance at a national title every 7-10 years.  I know i am asking for a lot, but why not. If i wanted to settle for mediocrity i would be a Purdue fan

We all want that and I am willing to give Archie a coupe of more years to see if he can do that.

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1 hour ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Easy, Coach Miller needs to be the one.  We can't have another failure at getting our next "Bob Knight" which is exactly what we're looking for.  He is going to get more and more rope until there is no coming back and we have painted ourselves into another spot to not get the next Bob Knight.  Or he is going to turn the corner and we're going to start climbing those steps to prominence again and step on the big stage and announce that IU is back boys and lay the hammer down.  

We have no middle ground at IU.  Our fanbase will not allow for mediocrity.  We can't live in the middle of the pack and sweet 16s.  These results are for other schools.  They are not acceptable for IU.  If we don't content for a B1G conference title and a Elite 8 in the next 2 seasons (including this year) CAM is going to lose a large majority of the fanbase.  6 years without a legit shot at a title will make it hard for him to recover.  He needs to do something soon.  Although Covid is giving him a bit more rope.

Coach can recruit. He is getting talent to come here. Now he needs to have that talent produce on the floor.

I disagree about the expectations of the fanbase.  I think the three years of mediocrity post-Crean, along with all of the uncertainty with COVID now, may have permanently altered what the fanbase expects out of the program.  
 

Just look at this season.  It’s Year 4, and the starting lineup is projected to have three upperclassmen (Phinisee, Durham, Thompson) and two five star underclassmen (TJD and Lander), with some experienced/talented returners and promising freshmen on the bench.  Five years ago, everyone on this board would be predicting a banner with a roster like that.  But now, I haven’t talked to a single IU fan that’s expecting much more than a conference record above .500.  And looking at the roster for next season, I don’t see anyone expecting much more unless TJD decides to come back.  
 

The fact of the matter is that the program doesn’t really look positioned to contend for a conference title / Final Four anytime soon, and the fanbase doesn’t really seem to have an issue with it.  Archie will get plenty of time, especially now that this season and probably the next season will have a COVID asterisk.

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9 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

I disagree about the expectations of the fanbase.  I think the three years of mediocrity post-Crean, along with all of the uncertainty with COVID now, may have permanently altered what the fanbase expects out of the program.  
 

Just look at this season.  It’s Year 4, and the starting lineup is projected to have three upperclassmen (Phinisee, Durham, Thompson) and two five star underclassmen (TJD and Lander), with some experienced/talented returners and promising freshmen on the bench.  Five years ago, everyone on this board would be predicting a banner with a roster like that.  But now, I haven’t talked to a single IU fan that’s expecting much more than a conference record above .500.  And looking at the roster for next season, I don’t see anyone expecting much more unless TJD decides to come back.  
 

The fact of the matter is that the program doesn’t really look positioned to contend for a conference title / Final Four anytime soon, and the fanbase doesn’t really seem to have an issue with it.  Archie will get plenty of time, especially now that this season and probably the next season will have a COVID asterisk.

For this year I see us finishing 5th in the conference and being ranked in the the top 20 nationally.  I doubt anybody looking at the roster this year would expect a championship and looking at how deep the conference is it will be hard for anyone to win it.  I know Andy Katz picked us 7th in the conference but 18th nationally so that to me its not that bad.  I don't like finishing 7th in the conference but overall where you are ranked nationally has more to do with your seeding in the tournament.

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