Hoosier Hysteria

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

CAM does not make lineup decisions based on what Brunk wants. Brunk isn’t going you tell CAM anyone should start and CAM isn’t going to hear anything like that. And Race already has been playing lights out over the summer and that’s why he was in the white Jersey starting group for much of the time during HH. Brunk May still start, with Race playing more minutes, but CAM already publicly said Race finished the year basically as a starter and he’s only gotten better.

I guess you're taking that wrong...what I'm saying is that IF Joey went to CAM and said, "Coach, I think the team is better off with Race starting and me coming off the bench" then I think Archie might do that. Other than the 3 scenarios I laid out, I see Joey starting.

But, like I said, I fully expect Race to see more minutes.

[BGleas]

58 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I guess you're taking that wrong...what I'm saying is that IF Joey went to CAM and said, "Coach, I think the team is better off with Race starting and me coming off the bench" then I think Archie might do that. Other than the 3 scenarios I laid out, I see Joey starting.

But, like I said, I fully expect Race to see more minutes.

The other scenario is that we only have two 5's on the roster this year. While he was hobbled, IU still had De'Ron Davis available to eat 10 or so minutes if both Brunk and TJD were foul trouble. That luxury is now gone, so if you start both and they both get two quick fouls there is nowhere to go. 

If you bring Brunk off the bench you're spreading out his playing time a bit from TJD's and buying yourself more time in terms of fouls at the 5. 

[madmax]

3 hours ago, BGleas said:

The other scenario is that we only have two 5's on the roster this year. While he was hobbled, IU still had De'Ron Davis available to eat 10 or so minutes if both Brunk and TJD were foul trouble. That luxury is now gone, so if you start both and they both get two quick fouls there is nowhere to go. 

If you bring Brunk off the bench you're spreading out his playing time a bit from TJD's and buying yourself more time in terms of fouls at the 5. 

I agree, but to play devils advocate Race has shown more then enough chops defensively to handle himself at the 5 in a pinch.

[IUFLA]

7 hours ago, madmax said:

I agree, but to play devils advocate Race has shown more then enough chops defensively to handle himself at the 5 in a pinch.

Very true...I remember him matching up with Cockburn and Garza. Race is undersized, but he's got a strong core, holds his ground well, and seems to have the desire to play with intensity on the defensive end.

 

The statistical difference per 40 is a mixed bag. From what I've seen, Joey is a bit trickier around the rim. He also of course, has the size.

Race is more athletic and versatile, has a nose for the ball, and always seemed to provide that spark. The per 40 numbers reflect that.

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

Very true...I remember him matching up with Cockburn and Garza. Race is undersized, but he's got a strong core, holds his ground well, and seems to have the desire to play with intensity on the defensive end.

 

The statistical difference per 40 is a mixed bag. From what I've seen, Joey is a bit trickier around the rim. He also of course, has the size.

Race is more athletic and versatile, has a nose for the ball, and always seemed to provide that spark. The per 40 numbers reflect that.

The stats you're sighting are on the year, Race started off getting limited minutes and was slowly worked in. He completely out-played Brunk over the last 10-12 games or so, which is why he was getting 20-plus a game and Brunk was around 9-10 min. 

[IUFLA]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

The stats you're sighting are on the year, Race started off getting limited minutes and was slowly worked in. He completely out-played Brunk over the last 10-12 games or so, which is why he was getting 20-plus a game and Brunk was around 9-10 min. 

OK, here are the numbers for the last 9 games for both Race and Joey...

I think "completely outplayed" is a bit of a reach. As you can see, statistically, not a huge disparity.

Like I said, Race has a nose for the ball (which shows up in the steals and blocks categories), and provided some spark. We all saw that. But Joey is tough and doesn't back down,

I think the REAL key will be how well Race has developed his outside game. If his 3 point shooting is north of 35% we'll be much better off spreading out the defense. Joey does not have that upside.

[BGleas]

11 hours ago, madmax said:

I agree, but to play devils advocate Race has shown more then enough chops defensively to handle himself at the 5 in a pinch.

I hear you and I'm sure there are times Race will defend the other teams 5, but I'm rarely a big fan of "in a pinch". 

I think at this point Brunk is kind of who he is, while Race still has room to grow and develop. I think Race growing and developing into a more prominent role is better for the team this season and for the future, while Brunk can still do what he does off the bench, which he's probably most suited for anyways. 

This is just my opinion, not necessarily what I think Archie will do. 

[BGleas]

2 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

OK, here are the numbers for the last 9 games for both Race and Joey...

I think "completely outplayed" is a bit of a reach. As you can see, statistically, not a huge disparity.

Like I said, Race has a nose for the ball (which shows up in the steals and blocks categories), and provided some spark. We all saw that. But Joey is tough and doesn't back down,

I think the REAL key will be how well Race has developed his outside game. If his 3 point shooting is north of 35% we'll be much better off spreading out the defense. Joey does not have that upside.

Ugh, not going to win a lot of games with your bigs shooting 40.5% and 43.8% from the field. That's putrid. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

OK, here are the numbers for the last 9 games for both Race and Joey...

I think "completely outplayed" is a bit of a reach. As you can see, statistically, not a huge disparity.

Like I said, Race has a nose for the ball (which shows up in the steals and blocks categories), and provided some spark. We all saw that. But Joey is tough and doesn't back down,

I think the REAL key will be how well Race has developed his outside game. If his 3 point shooting is north of 35% we'll be much better off spreading out the defense. Joey does not have that upside.

Completely outplayed probably is an overstatement. But starting with the 2/13/2 Iowa game, Race began to get extended minutes, and absent a couple exceptions, played significantly more minutes and produced better. Brunk did have that good game against MN just before the end of season.

Starting  2/13/20

v Iowa: Brunk 3 points, 1 board. Race 10 points, 4 boards

v UM, Brunk 6 pts, 1 bd, Race 0 pts, 1 bd

v MN, Brunk 0 pts, 2 bds, Race 9 pts, 10 bds

v PSU, Brunk 0 and 0, Race 8 and 4

v PU, Brunk 4 and 7, Race 6 and 8

v IL, Brunk 2 and 1, Race 2 and 3

v MN, Brunk 12 and 8, Race 2 and 4

v Wisc, Brunk 0 and 3, Race 7 and 11

[IUFLA]

1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Completely outplayed probably is an overstatement. But starting with the 2/13/2 Iowa game, Race began to get extended minutes, and absent a couple exceptions, played significantly more minutes and produced better. Brunk did have that good game against MN just before the end of season.

Starting  2/13/20

v Iowa: Brunk 3 points, 1 board. Race 10 points, 4 boards

v UM, Brunk 6 pts, 1 bd, Race 0 pts, 1 bd

v MN, Brunk 0 pts, 2 bds, Race 9 pts, 10 bds

v PSU, Brunk 0 and 0, Race 8 and 4

v PU, Brunk 4 and 7, Race 6 and 8

v IL, Brunk 2 and 1, Race 2 and 3

v MN, Brunk 12 and 8, Race 2 and 4

v Wisc, Brunk 0 and 3, Race 7 and 11

I think we're mostly in agreement that Race plays a better floor game, for the most part. 

The point of contention is whether Archie should start Joey or Race...

As I said, I'm not saying what I would do, just trying to think along with Archie on the pros and cons of each scenario...My thoughts come from more of a leadership angle and the foundation that Archie is trying to build.

I also think the first 3 substitutes (at varying points) will be Race, Jerome, and Armaan. Race for Joey, Jerome for Al, and Armaan for either Kristian or Rob. Those will be some interesting lineups...

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

I think we're mostly in agreement that Race plays a better floor game, for the most part. 

The point of contention is whether Archie should start Joey or Race...

As I said, I'm not saying what I would do, just trying to think along with Archie on the pros and cons of each scenario...My thoughts come from more of a leadership angle and the foundation that Archie is trying to build.

I also think the first 3 substitutes (at varying points) will be Race, Jerome, and Armaan. Race for Joey, Jerome for Al, and Armaan for either Kristian or Rob. Those will be some interesting lineups...

Realistically, if Race has continued to progress, he should start. CAM already has publicly stated that Race was basically playing as a starter to close the season. Race played his way into those minutes in the games since Feb. 13. The team doesn't benefit from Brunk starting if Race is outperforming him and has further grown his game, and as Gleas correctly pointed out the team no longer has Davis to turn to if TJD and Brunk were to have early foul trouble. I don't know CAM's thoughts here, but it is clear that Race has been playing his way into a starter role, that is how it should be. This is not to discount Brunk, but there is plenty of leadership on the floor -- Rob is the lead point -- and Race is a co-captain. The reasons you state are not justification for Brunk starting over Race, they just aren't.

[IUFLA]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Realistically, if Race has continued to progress, he should start. CAM already has publicly stated that Race was basically playing as a starter to close the season. Race played his way into those minutes in the games since Feb. 13. The team doesn't benefit from Brunk starting if Race is outperforming him and has further grown his game, and as Gleas correctly pointed out the team no longer has Davis to turn to if TJD and Brunk were to have early foul trouble. I don't know CAM's thoughts here, but it is clear that Race has been playing his way into a starter role, that is how it should be. This is not to discount Brunk, but there is plenty of leadership on the floor -- Rob is the lead point -- and Race is a co-captain. The reasons you state are not justification for Brunk starting over Race, they just aren't.

And your justification based on such a small sample size is?

I guess we'll see Wednesday night...

[Hoosierhoopster]

5 hours ago, IUFLA said:

And your justification based on such a small sample size is?

I guess we'll see Wednesday night...

For someone who says he no longer advocates Brunk starting you sure are in his corner, 

What do you mean small sample size? Last 10 games or so with Brunk’s minutes reduced to 9-10, to a redshirt frosh who gets around 20 and clearly outplays him, is now a soph and everyone is saying he’s had a great summer, and you say small sample size? Come on. 

And what will we see Wed? We’ll see whatever CAM decides to do. I said and you quoted I don’t know CAM’s thoughts here. What’s your point? 

[IUFLA]

8 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

For someone who says he no longer advocates Brunk starting you sure are in his corner, 

What do you mean small sample size? Last 10 games or so with Brunk’s minutes reduced to 9-10, to a redshirt frosh who gets around 20 and clearly outplays him, is now a soph and everyone is saying he’s had a great summer, and you say small sample size? Come on. 

And what will we see Wed? We’ll see whatever CAM decides to do. I said and you quoted I don’t know CAM’s thoughts here. What’s your point? 

I'm not advocating anything. I'm explaining why I think Archie continued to start Brunk last year, and probably will this year, over Race. There are so many more things than what you and I see for 40 minutes twice a week the coaching staff considers when replacing an established starter. I've stated that over and over.

I'm very happy that Race has improved over the summer. I'm thrilled that he'll be a major contributor this year. And he very well may start at some point. 

Just not in the beginning of the season. 

 

[go_iu_bb]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

I'm not advocating anything. I'm explaining why I think Archie continued to start Brunk last year, and probably will this year, over Race. There are so many more things than what you and I see for 40 minutes twice a week the coaching staff considers when replacing an established starter. I've stated that over and over.

I'm very happy that Race has improved over the summer. I'm thrilled that he'll be a major contributor this year. And he very well may start at some point. 

Just not in the beginning of the season. 

 

The beginning of the season is the exact time to try out new starting lineups. It is a new season, after all, and therefore should be viewed as a clean slate with starters earning the position. Plus, that's when the competition is weakest since they play low and mid major teams and the even the high major teams are still working out kinks.

I see that Miller doesn't like to change starting lineups during the season even when it hurts the team with slow starts as it did last season, but I hope he's not so stubborn as to not change them at the beginning of a season.

[BGleas]

I don't know what Archie is going to do, but for me it's sort of the same as Durham. I love Durham and Brunk, they're both valuable parts of this team on and off the floor. 

But we also pretty much know what their ceilings are. I think it would be better for the teams overall outlook if guys like Race, Lander, Hunter, Franklin, etc. are able to beat them out, and not beat them out because we hope they've developed, but because they're realizing their potential. 

Imagine having Race, Lander, Hunter, Franklin, Geronimo, etc. really, really developing to the point where IU can two quality, experienced seniors as their 6th/7th men off the bench? That would tell me IU is making a leap this season.