'21-'22 National Hoops Scene

[go_iu_bb]

Florida's Keyontae Johnson is still in the hospital in critical but stable condition. Yesterday they woke him from a medically induced coma. I hope he makes a full recovery from whatever caused the collapse.

[CincyHoosier]

21 hours ago, MaroonRebel said:

I am sure you numbers guys already know of this site. I do not know how it is calculated. It is free. Has IU at 25th behind Stanford(I think the Texas blowout skews the number a bit). Breaks down individual and I believe combos maybe. 

 https://evanmiya.com/

 

Interesting.  More interesting are the player ratings.  TJD #3.  Next closest is Race at #156 then Lander at #193.  Rob is #742 and second to last on the team in front of Leal.  

Edited December 15, 2020 by CincyHoosier

[IUFLA]

4 minutes ago, CincyHoosier said:

Interesting.  More interesting are the player ratings.  TJD #3.  Next closest is Race at #156 then Lander at #193.  Rob is #742 and second to last on the team in front of Leal.  

This is why I don't lend some of these things much credence...

Here are the "analytics."

Note the 3rd name and the 9th name...

Now, here are the numbers per 40 minutes this season...

Kristian will be a wonderful player some day, but even with a few struggles Rob is a better player at this point...especially on defense...

[CincyHoosier]

22 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

This is why I don't lend some of these things much credence...

Here are the "analytics."

Note the 3rd name and the 9th name...

Now, here are the numbers per 40 minutes this season...

Kristian will be a wonderful player some day, but even with a few struggles Rob is a better player at this point...especially on defense...

On Rob - these player ratings assuredly have their flaws, but most of us have been seeing it with our own eyes.  His performance has been...underwhelming so far this year. 

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, CincyHoosier said:

On Rob - these player ratings assuredly have their flaws, but most of us have been seeing it with our own eyes.  His performance has been...underwhelming so far this year. 

I'd call his offense "uneven" (3 1/2 poor games) but his defense, particularly his on the ball defense, has been very good...

But my point was the discrepancy in how the analytics rate Rob vs Kristian as opposed to the real numbers...

I don't think there's a person on this board that thinks Lander, for all of his potential, should start or get more time than Phinisee...

[CincyHoosier]

11 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I'd call his offense "uneven" (3 1/2 poor games) but his defense, particularly his on the ball defense, has been very good...

But my point was the discrepancy in how the analytics rate Rob vs Kristian as opposed to the real numbers...

I don't think there's a person on this board that thinks Lander, for all of his potential, should start or get more time than Phinisee...

I agree, I don't think we should interpret it as 1) Lander ranked higher is some random analytic ranking system therefore 2) Lander > Rob, and further 3) Lander should start instead of Rob.  However, I do think they have the rest of our roster essentially correct in terms of relative importance to our team and performance so far this year. 

[IowaHoosierFan]

4 hours ago, IUFLA said:

I'd call his offense "uneven" (3 1/2 poor games) but his defense, particularly his on the ball defense, has been very good...

But my point was the discrepancy in how the analytics rate Rob vs Kristian as opposed to the real numbers...

I don't think there's a person on this board that thinks Lander, for all of his potential, should start or get more time than Phinisee...

I disagree,  I think lander should start.  I think he has a better upside and maybe Rob would be better coming off the bench.  He has had almost no offensive growth.  Lander isn't as good a defender but he is a better passer and ball handler.  Not as good a shooter but at least he shoots his shots.  Rob just waits and wait and wait until he get 2 perfect 3 pointers.  I like Rob, but i would prefer to grow lander this year and have him blow up next year.  

Move rob to the 2 guard and Franklin to the 3 or have Franklin the 2 and rob as the 3 guard when needed. 

just me though.  Rob frustrates me because he should by all account be much better than he is right now

[NCHoosier32]

38 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I disagree,  I think lander should start.  I think he has a better upside and maybe Rob would be better coming off the bench.  He has had almost no offensive growth.  Lander isn't as good a defender but he is a better passer and ball handler.  Not as good a shooter but at least he shoots his shots.  Rob just waits and wait and wait until he get 2 perfect 3 pointers.  I like Rob, but i would prefer to grow lander this year and have him blow up next year.  

Move rob to the 2 guard and Franklin to the 3 or have Franklin the 2 and rob as the 3 guard when needed. 

just me though.  Rob frustrates me because he should by all account be much better than he is right now

i have never understood the theory that someone is a bad shooter, but at least they shoot a lot and then a criticism that a guy doesn't shoot enough.  just because you're confident enough to shoot doesn't help if you miss most of them.  

[dgambill]

I think the sample size is too small for analytics. Need probably a minimum 10 games for the outlier games to smooth out...especially with so many out of conference games and the competition varying so significantly.

[IUFLA]

1 hour ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I disagree,  I think lander should start.  I think he has a better upside and maybe Rob would be better coming off the bench.  He has had almost no offensive growth.  Lander isn't as good a defender but he is a better passer and ball handler.  Not as good a shooter but at least he shoots his shots.  Rob just waits and wait and wait until he get 2 perfect 3 pointers.  I like Rob, but i would prefer to grow lander this year and have him blow up next year.  

Move rob to the 2 guard and Franklin to the 3 or have Franklin the 2 and rob as the 3 guard when needed. 

just me though.  Rob frustrates me because he should by all account be much better than he is right now

Ok, so there's ONE person who thinks Lander should start over Rob...😁

But I'll give you 2 reasons he won't...

Defense and turnovers...

As the season goes along though, if Kristian's light goes on, I'd say at this point Al is the most vulnerable to lose his starting gig to the freshman...

Edited December 16, 2020 by IUFLA

[MaroonRebel]

Rob has triple the possessions so that skews numbers. Lander’s possessions have come against slower competition which may also skews numbers. 

[FKIM01]

Scottie Barnes is a STUD.

6-9 point guard...he's surely a lottery pick and 1 & done.

[Hoosierhoopster]

4 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Ok, so there's ONE person who thinks Lander should start over Rob...😁

But I'll give you 2 reasons he won't...

Defense and turnovers...

As the season goes along though, if Kristian's light goes on, I'd say at this point Al is the most vulnerable to lose his starting gig to the freshman...

Lander isn’t ready to start (imo), but he has a higher upside than Rob and the more he plays the better he will get and the faster he’ll get there. He is an extreme talent.

Without going into who should start over whom, IowaHoosierFan’s position isn’t crazy. Rob is a strong defender and, imo, brings that steady veteran floor leadership we need on the floor, along with an improved deep shot — that he doesn’t go for enough and that he hasn’t shown consistently yet - and I want him out there, but Lander absolutely, imo, needs more floor time and run than he’s being given. CAM’s approach can be holding him back, just because CAM is limiting him doesn’t make it right.
And on his D he has actually shown good D, he doesn’t get beaten often, his defensive positioning is sound. He’s just not acclimated to the speed and timing  of the college game. He will get there, we’re talking the top ranked point in his class. TO’s are part of that. 

[rico]

8 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Ok, so there's ONE person who thinks Lander should start over Rob...😁

But I'll give you 2 reasons he won't...

Defense and turnovers...

As the season goes along though, if Kristian's light goes on, I'd say at this point Al is the most vulnerable to lose his starting gig to the freshman...

I think Lander should start as well.....

[NCHoosier32]

i think Lander should start if... we are conceding this season.  i don't think any o us think that though, right?  Rob is better right now.  not sure how this is much of an argument.  is Lander's upside higher?  absolutely!  should he start playing more and more?  absolutely.  is he going to help us win more games if he is playing more of a role than RP right now?  no sir.  i'm not even worried about his defense.  he is out of control with the ball, his passing, and shot selection.  he is making a huge adjustment at a very high level a year early.  he'll come around, but not yet.  

[IUFLA]

4 hours ago, rico said:

I think Lander should start as well.....

Over who?

[IUFLA]

59 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

i think Lander should start if... we are conceding this season.  i don't think any o us think that though, right?  Rob is better right now.  not sure how this is much of an argument.  is Lander's upside higher?  absolutely!  should he start playing more and more?  absolutely.  is he going to help us win more games if he is playing more of a role than RP right now?  no sir.  i'm not even worried about his defense.  he is out of control with the ball, his passing, and shot selection.  he is making a huge adjustment at a very high level a year early.  he'll come around, but not yet.  

I agree with that 100%...His overall decision making needs to improve...

Right now, I think Kristian believes scoring is his way to more more minutes and an eventual starting role...It's not...

Edited December 16, 2020 by IUFLA

[rico]

2 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Over who?

Al or Rob...

[NCHoosier32]

1 minute ago, rico said:

Al or Rob...

i kinda get Al if we're looking at next year already, but not RP.  i also don't think it's time to look to next year yet.

[IUFLA]

4 minutes ago, rico said:

Al or Rob...

Al I might agree with...If Kristian can provide defense on par with Al, and I don't think the on the ball discrepancy is all that great...scheme wise and recognition I'm sure Al has the edge...I think a lot depends on what we see in the next 3 games...

[NCHoosier32]

i mean i'm good with Lander getting more and more time and really even Al getting a little less, but again, Lander has a long way to go and Al helps us more right now.  will that be the same in a month?  maybe not.  will it not matter much in month?  maybe not.  

[IUFLA]

11 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Lander isn’t ready to start (imo), but he has a higher upside than Rob and the more he plays the better he will get and the faster he’ll get there. He is an extreme talent.

Without going into who should start over whom, IowaHoosierFan’s position isn’t crazy. Rob is a strong defender and, imo, brings that steady veteran floor leadership we need on the floor, along with an improved deep shot — that he doesn’t go for enough and that he hasn’t shown consistently yet - and I want him out there, but Lander absolutely, imo, needs more floor time and run than he’s being given. CAM’s approach can be holding him back, just because CAM is limiting him doesn’t make it right.
And on his D he has actually shown good D, he doesn’t get beaten often, his defensive positioning is sound. He’s just not acclimated to the speed and timing  of the college game. He will get there, we’re talking the top ranked point in his class. TO’s are part of that. 

I agree with a lot of this...I bolded the part I don't know about (ignorance of the overall defensive scheme on my part)...

I do know he's good about keeping the his man in front of him and I've been impressed with his closeout speed...

The underlined part I question...He has to fit into the scheme and the culture...Not the other way around...I go back to Izzo's mantra..."Players determine playing time."

[5fouls]

Lander has the worst PER and W/S Per 40 of any of the scholarship players.  If the purpose is to win now, his role should continue as it has been until his play improves.

2020-21 Indiana Hoosiers Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com (sports-reference.com)

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

4 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Lander has the worst PER and W/S Per 40 of any of the scholarship players.  If the purpose is to win now, his role should continue as it has been until his play improves.

2020-21 Indiana Hoosiers Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com (sports-reference.com)

 

Meh. PER again, take with grain of salt. His upside and talent are beyond (reasonable) question. The question is not what his "PER" is now, it's what the team and coach can do to get to his anticipated contributions to the team sooner rather than later. That's debatable. I'm on the side of getting the "Five Star" #1-ranked point guard playing time, especially in the early part of the schedule, to get him ready sooner. Most teams would.

[Hoosierhoopster]

5 hours ago, IUFLA said:

I agree with a lot of this...I bolded the part I don't know about (ignorance of the overall defensive scheme on my part)...

I do know he's good about keeping the his man in front of him and I've been impressed with his closeout speed...

The underlined part I question...He has to fit into the scheme and the culture...Not the other way around...I go back to Izzo's mantra..."Players determine playing time."

All fair for discussion. I personally think CAM's approach -- the get older, play young, talented frosh less than most teams would (I think that's fact) in favor of veteran experienced players -- cuts both ways. We're a good team now, think that's clear. That is absolutely at least in part because of CAM's approach, building on vet experience and emphasizing, for the most part, the vets (Hunter kind of in the middle here though). But contrast, for example, how Izzo brings his teams along going into a season -- not always but often, MSU struggles early, including losing to non-Div I teams, etc., because he's working in the young talent, and by early to mid-conf play, they're clicking and playing typical MSU ball.

Think Izzo would sit Lander on the bench? I doubt it, and, generally, as talented as Lander is -- and he's already shown flashes of on-court brilliance -- I want him playing more and getting his college game legs under him. That could cause an early loss or two. No question Rob is the steadier point right now, but how might Lander help us come say February? If he's been barely playing, not much.

So whether CAM's approach, so far, is a good or not so good thing remains to be seen, but I don't believe in just accepting that because a player isn't playing as much, that means they're not showing enough or talented enough. This also relates to my thinking on Hunter -- right or wrong -- I don't like the way CAM is under-utilizing him. We know, from CAM's mouth, he's one of the 3 best shooters on the team. We know he finished last year shooting North of 40%. I know I know, Defense, but for Christ's sake we will need scoring in B1G play.

Then there's the recruiting side and potential fallout of leaving a 5 star sitting on the bench. How many #1 - ranked or otherwise elite points do you think are good coming into a school where the coach sits guys like that on the bench? Playing time is a huge part of recruiting.