Offense is Offensive

[mcity]

I have been saying since Archie took over that his offense isn't going to cut it, it is too slow and too "structured" and unfortunately, up to this point, it hasn't.  I am disappointed at what CAM said yesterday after the NW game about possibly having to play even slower....in my opinion, that is the exact opposite of what he should be doing.

I realize that Archie is a defense first coach which is all well and good, but I also think that philosophy can lead to the belief that playing fast on offense causes your defense to suffer.  I don't think that has to be the case, I think you can play faster on offense while still playing tough defense.  If you look at the NW game last night, when we made our run in the 2nd half to get the lead, there was 4-5 possessions in a row where we pushed the ball and got a couple of dunks and some open looks.  After that, when the game slowed back down, we started to struggle again.  NW got back to packing in the zone and we got back to passing the ball around outside of the 3-point with nothing really happening. 

I think the make-up of this team right now is that we have better athletes than we do basketball players so why not play to their strengths, allowing them to get out and run, freeing them up to get some better looks in transition which hopefully takes the pressure off of them having to play in a half court game.  Defenses today are good, if you let them set up and lock you into a half court game, chances are you will struggle, especially if you lack shooters and guards who can create. 

It is sad to say, but at this point, I would take Crean's teams over CAM's teams...at least with Crean, even though there were 25 turnovers a game, we saw points being scored and we always felt like we had a puncher's chance if we got hot.  We are not good enough to line up each and every night and play teams straight up......sometimes it is about the Jimmy and the Joe's and when they have as good or better Jimmy and Joe's as we do, that is where coaches are supposed to make their money because then it becomes about the X's and the O's. 

Year 4 and I don't feel like we are any closer than we were in year 1 of Archie.  The Big Ten is loaded, NW and Rutgers used to be the bottom feeders, but those days appear to be over, there are no guaranteed wins in this league for IU.  One more thing, let Lander play, if he is sitting because of defense, let him take his lumps and teach him but I think what he can bring to the offense as far as pushing the ball and creating is desperately needed because unfortunately Phinese has regressed.  

[IUFLA]

44 minutes ago, mcity said:

I think the make-up of this team right now is that we have better athletes than we do basketball players

Welcome to the forum...

Exactly what players do we have right now that are better athletes than basketball players? To me, Troy Williams fit that model, but I can't really think of one on the current team beside maybe Geronimo, and I'm sure @Hoosierhoopster would take exception there 😁

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

Welcome to the forum...

Exactly what players do we have right now that are better athletes than basketball players? To me, Troy Williams fit that model, but I can't really think of one on the current team beside maybe Geronimo, and I'm sure @Hoosierhoopster would take exception there 😁

I would - but it’s fair that he’s still raw at the college level. Hopefully we’ll see him play soon

[Brass Cannon]

Not sure would describe our offense as structured. Slow and boring.  Structured would indicate we are doing things with intention. Which I just refuse to believe. 

[BobSaccamanno]

32 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I would - but it’s fair that he’s still raw at the college level. Hopefully we’ll see him play soon

I would definitely, positively, 100% get him some run to help develop him.  And Lander should play more too.  I don’t give a crap that he gave up a foul on the big guy inside because there is a larger picture with his development.  There’s no excuse for playing Rob and Al that many minutes.  We aren’t talking about Damon Bailey and Greg Graham.  The last thing we need is to turn in a mediocre season and then next year Lander and Geronimo are still too raw.  

[DWB]

1 hour ago, Brass Cannon said:

Not sure would describe our offense as structured. Slow and boring.  Structured would indicate we are doing things with intention. Which I just refuse to believe. 

Not saying you're wrong at all. But I was thinking the opposite. The offense is structured, and far too much. And you're right, it is boring. Why? Because Al dribbles the logo off the ball at the top of the key waiting for a wing to run across the baseline to the other side to catch a pass, and then return it immediately to Al. And then he dribbles more, waiting to decide what to do. Must have done this on 60-75% of the possessions where Al was playing point. I've erased the game from my DVR, but it would be interesting to see how many possessions where shots were taken inside of 7 seconds. I bet it was 50% or more. 

We think that NW played good defense against us. Why? Because when you watch film from more than one game, you get a large majority of the playbook. How many times did Al run the curl route to get the ball in the paint. A lot ! We're easy to scout.

I didn't see a many screens (other than ball screens) last night. Maybe I wasn't looking for them.

But whether the offense is structured or not, isn't the problem. Motivation, commitment, and taking care of the damn ball is the problem...IMO.

[MSHoosier]

We had 16 turnovers but Al and Rob were not the reason. But they also didn't do anything positive.  They ran what appears to me to be a a structured, slow developing offense that didn't produce enough points to beat a time that got hot and beat our defense.  This has been my criticism since day one. Archie apparently thinks he will win with a slow pace on offense, and I think the exact opposite is true.  If you look at which teams are winning championships and consistently getting high seeds it is fast paced offensive teams. Of course,  I've never coached a day in my life, so what do I know. But I think I made this point some time ago, if you go back and watch the Alford led IU team, they rarely came close to holding the ball through a shot clock. When the got an open shot they took it. And not just Alford but everyone. AL and Rob aren't aggressive enough, but that seems to be by design to me, and I fear that the same will become true for Lander and Galloway if they continue to run this system.

[Leathernecks]

I'm sure someone has asked along the way, but I would be interested in hearing Miller answer what kind of offenses are difficult for his defense to defend. I highly doubt his answer would be anything like our offense.

I know things are different in football than in basketball, but that is one thing Allen said early on. Being a defensive minded coach, people thought he might want to run a slow, conservative offense to help out his defense. He said that fast offenses that move the ball all over are tough for his defense to defend, so that's what he wants his offense to be. He also said he wanted to run that offense because it is fun and will get better recruits.

Our offense isn't tough to defend, and it sure as hell doesn't look fun. Can't imagine a lot of 17 and 18 year olds are begging to run an offense that is slow and emphasizes feeding the post.

[tdhoosier]

1 hour ago, MSHoosier said:

We had 16 turnovers but Al and Rob were not the reason. But they also didn't do anything positive.  They ran what appears to me to be a a structured, slow developing offense that didn't produce enough points to beat a time that got hot and beat our defense.  This has been my criticism since day one. Archie apparently thinks he will win with a slow pace on offense, and I think the exact opposite is true.  If you look at which teams are winning championships and consistently getting high seeds it is fast paced offensive teams. Of course,  I've never coached a day in my life, so what do I know. But I think I made this point some time ago, if you go back and watch the Alford led IU team, they rarely came close to holding the ball through a shot clock. When the got an open shot they took it. And not just Alford but everyone. AL and Rob aren't aggressive enough, but that seems to be by design to me, and I fear that the same will become true for Lander and Galloway if they continue to run this system.

I think you’re right in diagnosing the problem, but I don’t think this is what CAM wants. He’s been constantly pleading with the team fo the last few years to push the ball on offense and to play faster. Galloway and Armaan push and move the ball and they are getting a lot of minutes because of it. Al and Rob too many times walk the ball up the court and were the ones who looked like they had no clue how to handle the zone. Our Primary ball handlers can’t walk the ball up the court, dribble around at the top of the key for a bit and then pass the ball around the perimeter because the whole process takes up more than half the shot clock. 

I don’t believe this is by design, but I will say that this is still being allowed to happen falls on Arch. These guys have been here for 3+ years. Ideally Lander should be the one to take the minutes away when our upperclassmen do this, but CAM is a defense first coach and see’s him as a liability on the opposite end of the court.  

[NCHoosier32]

i still say Al and Rob aren't good enough to be very offensively aggressive.  if we want guards to be offensively aggressive they simply need to be more talented.  i disagree on al BTW.  he's plenty aggressive for me.  i don't want him taking more bad shots or forcing anything more.  

[tdhoosier]

3 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

i still say Al and Rob aren't good enough to be very offensively aggressive.  if we want guards to be offensively aggressive they simply need to be more talented.  i disagree on al BTW.  he's plenty aggressive for me.  i don't want him taking more bad shots or forcing anything more.  

I just don’t think Al should be the one bringing the ball up the floor. He’s more aggressive when he’s playing off the ball. 

[NCHoosier32]

19 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I just don’t think Al should be the one bringing the ball up the floor. He’s more aggressive when he’s playing off the ball. 

definitely agree about Al not bringing the ball up the floor!

[IowaHoosierFan]

1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

I just don’t think Al should be the one bringing the ball up the floor. He’s more aggressive when he’s playing off the ball. 

I think Al spends more time on the floor than on his feet and its become his go to thing.  Just like Yogi was run the baseline and jump in the air looking for someone to pass too.

Rob is well, the same kid as his freshman year.  moderately talented but has zero killer instinct and not a natural leader.  It really is too bad too.  He showed glimpses of being a true offensive threat early in his career.

[dgambill]

My issue with the offense is we aren’t running nearly all the different actions off it as we did last year. I mean I look at games like Michigan St last year we were running lots of back cuts and reverses and reposts just stuff I didn’t see against NW. Teams know exactly where our guys are going...beat us to the screens and make pressure out top miserable. I just didn’t see the adjustments. I also like seeing Trey run the free throw line area of our zone offense. First off he is smart kid. Knows how to get into an opening and make himself available. Bigs are uncomfortable that spot on the floor (posting further out) they aren’t used to handling the ball there with guards reaching in. They aren’t our best passers...yes they have size but if you have a strong bigger wing like Galloway he can drive, pass and yes hit that 15 shot consistently. Move him around there and let Hunter run baseline to baseline finding the open corner three. Put Armaan and Al/Rob out top and let Trayce find the soft spots down low from side to side the lane and I think you have your best zone busting lineup. Force teams out of it and then you can bring back your best lineup of 3 guards and Race and Trayce and run our traditional sets. That said if they are in man I only want Rob or Lander running the point. Al is not strong with the ball. Let him and Armaan work to spot up and shoot.