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1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

I'm not sure we've seen enough of KL in game action to make that statement...I've seen Curbelo make some atrocious decisions on the break (and on the offensive end in general), going up to 4 on 1 and just charging at the rim...I've probably watched 5 of their games, and it's happened multiple times...He's a talented kid, but he's got more than a few flaws to his game...

But that was my point...Illinois has a player (Ayo) that can pretty much take the team on his back and help them win...we don't have that luxury...

If we did, I'd almost guarantee KL would get more minutes...

This is what I'm trying to get at. No doubt Curbelo makes mistakes but then he makes jaw dropping passes or shots. They way he creates shots for other players alone is far beyond what Lander has shown. The point is: he makes up for his mistakes and playing time is justified. As far as I'm concerned there's 2 scenarios for freshman playing time:

1. Don't make careless mistakes. (ie: Leal's stretch of minutes yesterday)
2. If careless mistakes are made then they need to be offset by actual production. (ie: Curbelo)

KL might be the better player in the long run, but right now, it's not even close. Curbelo is averaging almost 10 points and 5 assists per game in 20 minutes. Side note, Curbelo might be my favorite player to watch in the Big Ten from a pure entertainment aspect. 

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Hunter is a perfect microcosm of these players, this team, Archie, all of it: I want to love you but god damn, you make it so hard on me sometimes.

One thing that is often overlooked is that our defense on free throws continues to be outstanding.  Not sure if it's our positioning, intimidation, or the air conditioning.  But, opponents can't seem

I was really happy with the win and thought Archie coached a phenomenal second half. He did a great job of adjusting to the game, played a lineup major minutes that we've never seen, let Hunter play t

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3 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Side note that maybe shouldn’t be just a side note. Race’s double double last night was great to see, when he plays that more aggressive game we’re a better team. The more consistent he is in being aggressive, the better we will be 

Also a great point. Thompson's goal every game should be to get 10 rebounds. 

If that's his goal then his energy and effort alone with allow everything else (scoring) to take care of itself. 

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8 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

This is what I'm trying to get at. No doubt Curbelo makes mistakes but then he makes jaw dropping passes or shots. They way he creates shots for other players alone is far beyond what Lander has shown. The point is: he makes up for his mistakes and playing time is justified. As far as I'm concerned there's 2 scenarios for freshman playing time:

1. Don't make careless mistakes. (ie: Leal's stretch of minutes yesterday)
2. If careless mistakes are made then they need to be offset by actual production. (ie: Curbelo)

KL might be the better player in the long run, but right now, it's not even close. Curbelo is averaging almost 10 points and 5 assists per game in 20 minutes. Side note, Curbelo might be my favorite player to watch in the Big Ten from a pure entertainment aspect. 

From what I’ve seen Curbelo is a significant liability on defense. 

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5 minutes ago, IndyHoosier22 said:

I am late but has there been any news on Parker Stewart? Is he going to play at some point this season?

We could REALLY use his shooting and general scoring ability.

No news yet. 

He is listed on the roster. Seems unlikely (imo) that he'll play anytime soon, as CAM has basically commented that he's not in playing shape, and as he's just joining the team and will need to learn the sets and defensive positioning within CAM's system, and develop on court chemistry. I have absolutely no inside info on this, just think it's going to be a while before he sees the floor in any relevant minutes. If he does see the floor soon, that would speak highly of him and his ability to learn CAM's system and develop early chemistry. 

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28 minutes ago, BGleas said:

This is a great point! Hunter was able to grab some of Franklin's missing minutes and I not only think it benefitted Hunter but it also benefitted the team. 

During that stretch is when we started really dominating the boards on both ends, which Hunter played a role in. It just made the lineup bigger. 

Hunter is probably a bit of a negative on the boards when playing the 4 but he's a positive when playing the 3. 

That team rebounding improvement is huge, it allows them to play quicker, get in transition more and offensively clean up some of those bricks. 

Believe we out-rebounded MD by 10 -- that's my recollection without pulling the box score. Rebounding has been a major issue for this team. Good points here, and if they hold up going forward that will make this team a lot better as well.

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1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Believe we out-rebounded MD by 10 -- that's my recollection without pulling the box score. Rebounding has been a major issue for this team. Good points here, and if they hold up going forward that will make this team a lot better as well.

Just going off memory here, but I'd have to think much of that 10+ rebound margin came in those last 10 minutes when IU largely had Hunter at the 3 alongside Race and TJD. 

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6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

No news yet. 

He is listed on the roster. Seems unlikely (imo) that he'll play anytime soon, as CAM has basically commented that he's not in playing shape, and as he's just joining the team and will need to learn the sets and defensive positioning within CAM's system, and develop on court chemistry. I have absolutely no inside info on this, just think it's going to be a while before he sees the floor in any relevant minutes. If he does see the floor soon, that would speak highly of him and his ability to learn CAM's system and develop early chemistry. 

Agree. As much as he could bring offense, would think that he’ll need to prove he can defend in practice first before he’s even being considered.  

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2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Just going off memory here, but I'd have to think much of that 10+ rebound margin came in those last 10 minutes when IU largely had Hunter at the 3 alongside Race and TJD. 

He seems much more comfortable at the 3 - like last year.  He looked lost on offense this year playing the 4.  

If Jordan can effectively try to do what Brunk did last last year and give TJD and Race a breather and play the 4/5, this could open up hunter to play the 3 and bring more offense than Galloway.  
 

We very well could look back at this game as the turning point for Hunter.  

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My Takeaways from the game last night:

I Personally thought we were playing pretty well, even while down, just shooting horrendously...

Offense:
- I thought that we got good shots throughout the game. We did not hit many of them in the first half, but we were still getting very open looks. Most of the focus of the announcers was on missing the jump shots, but I was more concerned with how soft and rushed we were around the rim. The announcers were saying that we weren't paying enough attention to TJD, but I felt like he was just not finishing his opportunities in the first half, and was finishing them in the second.
- I was glad to see us work a bit more on the offensive glass, I hope we do a bit more of that going forward
- The ball moves really well when the freshmen are in, they didn't hit any shots after the first bucket of the game, and they passed up some shots late in the possession a couple of times, but I feel like they demonstrate that they really know how to play the game, and I think that bodes well for growth down the line
- We won the game at the Free Throw Line, imagine that! 
- I really can't stand the way that we post up the second big during the Pick and Roll, and I would really like to hear why Archie has the guards toss the ball to the big and then get the ball right back at the top of the key in the monotonous ball hand off they do...maybe eventually that will develop into something when the big is a threat to shoot and drive (like Purdue and Wisconsin) but right now it just causes opportunities for mistakes (like Lander throwing the ball to no one and it going out of bounds in the first half, he was trying to do the weird ball hand off thing with TJD)
- I'd love to know what the staff wants the players to be doing in response to the dribble drive...right now, we just stand in the way of the drive or fail to move into the open spaces on the floor to be available for the pass and I think it is one of the simplest adjustments we could make that would open our offense up and add 6-8 points a game
- Leal is a smart player and makes winning plays, will need to look at the rim more consistently to be more helpful on offense

Defense:
- Most of our mistakes happen in transition (or oddly enough in dead ball moments as well), when we are set in the half court we make only one or two errors a game in terms of positioning and switching, but we are sometimes sloppy in transition
- I am not 100% on the way that we guard baseline out of bounds plays...we put our five on the ball do matter what and then matchup from there...We got a steal out of it last night in the second half, but I think it is something other teams could scout and take advantage of (possibly with weak side post ups, which has happed a time or two)
- I loved the way Rob defended the post and also the way that he dug down on the post when he was guarding the perimeter
- TJD was way better on the ball screens
- our switches were more fluid and we ended up in better positions after the switch than we had been recently
- I wish we had a couple of different presses to sprinkle in when we are bogged down in the half court
- Turgeon mentioned that he thought they just missed open shots, but I think that we pushed them deeper on the court and in the shot clock than they are used to, and I think we contested pretty well...
- Hunter made some mistakes (less so in positioning, more so in contesting) but he has been so much more physical lately...I think he lacks confidence, he seems to second guess himself a lot and seems unsure...maybe last night that came from the fact that he was playing on the perimeter for the first time all year

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1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

This is what I'm trying to get at. No doubt Curbelo makes mistakes but then he makes jaw dropping passes or shots. They way he creates shots for other players alone is far beyond what Lander has shown. The point is: he makes up for his mistakes and playing time is justified. As far as I'm concerned there's 2 scenarios for freshman playing time:

1. Don't make careless mistakes. (ie: Leal's stretch of minutes yesterday)
2. If careless mistakes are made then they need to be offset by actual production. (ie: Curbelo)

KL might be the better player in the long run, but right now, it's not even close. Curbelo is averaging almost 10 points and 5 assists per game in 20 minutes. Side note, Curbelo might be my favorite player to watch in the Big Ten from a pure entertainment aspect. 

I think we agree on everything except the bolded...I'm just not ready to declare Curbelo a much better player based on the current sample size for KL...I saw Khristian make some nice passes in the pre-season when he got the chance...

Curbelo's overall numbers are better because he's played 238 minutes to KL's 97...

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edit: forgot to quote @IUFLA's reply. 

On average, Curbelo plays 2.5x more minutes, but averages almost 5x more points, 4x more assists and has a FG% of 52% vs. 23%. At some point Lander has to create his chances (which really is my overall point); Otherwise, we're debating the hypothetical "if he had more minutes he might be better" against a player who is actively getting 10 points and 5 assists in 20 minutes per game. 

I honestly feel icky that I'm defending an Illini. Forgive me Mile. :)

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9 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

edit: forgot to quote @IUFLA's reply. 

On average, Curbelo plays 2.5x more minutes, but averages almost 5x more points, 4x more assists and has a FG% of 52% vs. 23%. At some point Lander has to create his chances (which really is my overall point); Otherwise, we're debating the hypothetical "if he had more minutes he might be better" against a player who is actively getting 10 points and 5 assists in 20 minutes per game. 

I honestly feel icky that I'm defending an Illini. Forgive me Mile. :)

Nothing wrong in what you're saying -- prefacing my comments so that's clear. 

The problem is that Lander has been playing 2 or 3 minutes a game recently. His overall minutes are of course significantly less. It's hard to simply extrapolate out of his limited minutes what he might do with significantly increased playing time. At this point it's just next to impossible to do a head to head comparison, it's an apples to oranges thing because of their differing circumstances. And the Lander creating his chances thing depends on the coach, at least in part. Under CAM, he can create only so much if his D isn't where CAM wants it to be -- that's the point here, really do think he is much more restricted under CAM than he would be at most major programs, right or wrong.

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1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Nothing wrong in what you're saying -- prefacing my comments so that's clear. 

The problem is that Lander has been playing 2 or 3 minutes a game recently. His overall minutes are of course significantly less. It's hard to simply extrapolate out of his limited minutes what he might do with significantly increased playing time. At this point it's just next to impossible to do a head to head comparison, it's an apples to oranges thing because of their differing circumstances. And the Lander creating his chances thing depends on the coach, at least in part. Under CAM, he can create only so much if his D isn't where CAM wants it to be -- that's the point here, really do think he is much more restricted under CAM than he would be at most major programs, right or wrong.

Adding that my point all along was the supporting cast Underwood has, allows a much longer leash...

Underwood knows his talent alone will win most games for the Illini...They'll make the tournament easily...

We have to scrap for every win...If we don't make it this year, the naysayers will go with the "hasn't made the tourney" line regarding CAM, and regardless of how anyone views last year (and I think we were a lock)...

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1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

Adding that my point all along was the supporting cast Underwood has, allows a much longer leash...

Underwood knows his talent alone will win most games for the Illini...They'll make the tournament easily...

We have to scrap for every win...If we don't make it this year, the naysayers will go with the "hasn't made the tourney" line regarding CAM, and regardless of how anyone views last year (and I think we were a lock)...

Yeah.  While I'm not in the fire Archie crowd at this point, he has to do everything he can to win every game.  Kinda sounds silly because doesn't everyone?  However, we aren't gonna have many easy wins where we can afford to just throw Lander out there in blowouts.  I hope that in games where we get blown out we'll see him get more minutes.  I'll say again, I hoped he'd be able to come right in and start this year and he sure isn't ready.  I want to see him play as I think he'll be exciting, but I don't think he's ready to win games for us.  All of that said, it's disheartening that we can't afford to play him 4 minutes a half when our guards aren't even that great.  

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I kind of thought this year the front line would be (T)Race with Hunter playing a lot of 3. Seems the team kind of took off when it finally happened tonight. I wish they would of had the camera on archie when he took that 3 at the end of the game as opposed to pulling it back. I actually like hunter defending on the perimeter with his length.  He just needs to not jump into the shooters and just use that length.  I know AD is a senior but when Franklin is back, I hope AD and Galloway come off the bench and Hunter cleans ups up his mistakes. 

What are the COVID eligibility rules?  Do all these guys get an extra year if they want it or did that just apply to last season's roster?  Lander looks like a HS player who is trying to play in a college Power conference. The team wasn't playing well at the time Franklin went down.  Lander threw the ball out of bounds and it kind of sealed his fate for this game.  The 2nd half was good and Archie needs wins.  How do you take chances on player development when a win is needed in a winnable game?

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8 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Nothing wrong in what you're saying -- prefacing my comments so that's clear. 

The problem is that Lander has been playing 2 or 3 minutes a game recently. His overall minutes are of course significantly less. It's hard to simply extrapolate out of his limited minutes what he might do with significantly increased playing time. At this point it's just next to impossible to do a head to head comparison, it's an apples to oranges thing because of their differing circumstances. And the Lander creating his chances thing depends on the coach, at least in part. Under CAM, he can create only so much if his D isn't where CAM wants it to be -- that's the point here, really do think he is much more restricted under CAM than he would be at most major programs, right or wrong.

Last comment since we've veered pretty far off track, but @IUFLA's comparison to Curbelo was just too good for me to resist: 2 slightly built PG's that are fast and shifty Freshmen. I think we'll be comparing them for the next few years.

Anyway, I see it as: If Archie gave KL a longer leash and more minutes, I don't think he'd be putting up the same numbers (10 points/5 assists) or have as big of an impact as Curbelo. I just don't think he's ready for that type of production yet....nothing that he's done on the court has shown me this. It's all a hypothetical so there's no way for me to prove it (and no way for you to disprove it).

I'm just of the belief that if Lander thinks he's ready to contribute then at some point he has to TAKE those minutes and force Archie's hand. I think CAM can live with those lapses but he HAS to be getting something (anything) in return.

 

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16 hours ago, CincyHoosier said:

He's a confident shooter.  That's an incredible asset, especially to this team. 

I don’t disagree completely, but he’s not a great shooter and his other shortcomings outweigh his confidence right now IMO. It’s one thing to need to improve on D, but it’s a totally different ballgame making the same mistakes over and over and over. He’s in year 3 at IU and his D hasn’t improved much and his IQ is terrible. Just not sure his positive outweighs his negatives. 

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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Nothing wrong in what you're saying -- prefacing my comments so that's clear. 

The problem is that Lander has been playing 2 or 3 minutes a game recently. His overall minutes are of course significantly less. It's hard to simply extrapolate out of his limited minutes what he might do with significantly increased playing time. At this point it's just next to impossible to do a head to head comparison, it's an apples to oranges thing because of their differing circumstances. And the Lander creating his chances thing depends on the coach, at least in part. Under CAM, he can create only so much if his D isn't where CAM wants it to be -- that's the point here, really do think he is much more restricted under CAM than he would be at most major programs, right or wrong.

Normally we butt heads but on this I agree with exactly what you're saying here.  I would also say that knowing he is going to get yanked as soon as he makes a mistake keeps Lander tight and not what made him a 5* recruit.  Just my opinion on the matter

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1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

Last comment since we've veered pretty far off track, but @IUFLA's comparison to Curbelo was just too good for me to resist: 2 slightly built PG's that are fast and shifty Freshmen. I think we'll be comparing them for the next few years.

Anyway, I see it as: If Archie gave KL a longer leash and more minutes, I don't think he'd be putting up the same numbers (10 points/5 assists) or have as big of an impact as Curbelo. I just don't think he's ready for that type of production yet....nothing that he's done on the court has shown me this. It's all a hypothetical so there's no way for me to prove it (and no way for you to disprove it).

I'm just of the belief that if Lander thinks he's ready to contribute then at some point he has to TAKE those minutes and force Archie's hand. I think CAM can live with those lapses but he HAS to be getting something (anything) in return.

 

Curbelo is 19 and a member of the PR National team. No comparison in experience and BB maturity with Lander

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4 hours ago, Bustout said:

He seems much more comfortable at the 3 - like last year.  He looked lost on offense this year playing the 4.  

If Jordan can effectively try to do what Brunk did last last year and give TJD and Race a breather and play the 4/5, this could open up hunter to play the 3 and bring more offense than Galloway.  
 

We very well could look back at this game as the turning point for Hunter.  

Ya, except, at the 3, Hunter does not: 

- run out on transition

-play perimeter D 

- cut to the basket or penetrate 

- play good help side 

- arguably does not help us space floor

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8 minutes ago, Candystripes_56 said:

Ya, except, at the 3, Hunter does not: 

- run out on transition

-play perimeter D 

- cut to the basket or penetrate 

- play good help side 

- arguably does not help us space floor

So do you think he should play the 3, 4, or the 0 and never play at IU again??

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