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1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

You said more opportunity was the reason for his turnaround...in the past 2 games, he's had about the same opportunity he's had all year...19 minutes vs Maryland, and 16, not counting OT vs Wisky...he averages 17 mpg on the year

That tells me it's not so much theĀ opportunity asĀ it isĀ taking advantageĀ of the opportunity...

Ok you insist on arguingĀ 

16 min in the OT game ag PSU. OT

19 min against MD

26 in the OT game against Wisc

I donā€™t care how you want to play with it, heā€™s obviously been getting more run and just as obviously has scored / played better with it.Ā 
You post to try to ā€œwinā€ what you think are arguments. I post about player development.

If it makes you feel good to say it was OT, while ignoring that PSU was OT then have at itĀ 

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4 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Ok you insist on arguingĀ 

16 min in the OT game ag PSU. OT

19 min against MD

26 in the OT game against Wisc

I donā€™t care how you want to play with it, heā€™s obviously been getting more run and just as obviously has scored / played better with it.Ā 
You post to try to ā€œwinā€ what you think are arguments. I post about player development.

If it makes you feel good to say it was OT, while ignoring that PSU was OT then have at itĀ 

No, I asked a question (What was behind the turnaround?)and you said, "opportunity."

But he's not getting any MORE opportunity (which equates to playing time to me) than he has been all year. Archie Miller doesn't know the game is going to OT or double OT for that matter...

I'm just a stickler for details...

Ā 

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17 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

No, I asked a question (What was behind the turnaround?)and you said, "opportunity."

But he's not getting any MORE opportunity (which equates to playing time to me) than he has been all year. Archie Miller doesn't know the game is going to OT or double OT for that matter...

I'm just a stickler for details...

Ā 

Oh dear God save me from nitpicking without reason.Ā 
Ā 

How you just ignored that he went from 16 min in OT, to 19 min in regular play, to 26, which yes included OT,Ā to try to argueĀ heā€™s not getting more opportunityĀ is mind numbing, mind numbingly pointless.Ā 
Ā 

Ā 

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5 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Ā 

As happy as I was about Jerome hitting jumpers, I was just as happy with his inside game...7 boards, and a couple of dunks...and he had at least an acceptable defensive game...

I wonder what turned it around for him?

My opinion is Wisconsin is a different type of team. They are not ubber athletic type. They play fundamental and run their stuff and donā€™t beat themselves but donā€™t have guys that are ultra quick with the ball or athletic leapers...itā€™s a good matchup for Jerome. I donā€™t think his defense and rebounding will ever turn around fully. Tonight was a good matchup for him.

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13 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Oh dear God save me from nitpicking without reason.Ā 
Ā 

How you just ignored that he went from 16 min in OT, to 19 min in regular play, to 26, which yes included OT,Ā to try to argueĀ heā€™s not getting more opportunityĀ is mind numbing, mind numbingly pointless.Ā 
Ā 

Ā 

I have a suggestion then...

The question was directed to the forum in general...not you specifically. If you don't like people pushing back then don't respond.

By its very definition "opportunity"Ā  is onlyĀ 

"a set of circumstances that makes it possible to do something."

In Jerome's case, and all players for that matter, the opportunity is increased or decreased by how well or poorly they play. It's not theĀ reasonĀ they play well or poorly. That's more dictated by practice habits (see Anthony Leal, who tookĀ advantageĀ of his opportunity), mental attitude, and confidence.Ā 

Something has clicked in Jerome. Maybe he's being the player now that he was before the medical problems. I sure hope so...

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13 hours ago, dgambill said:

My opinion is Wisconsin is a different type of team. They are not ubber athletic type. They play fundamental and run their stuff and donā€™t beat themselves but donā€™t have guys that are ultra quick with the ball or athletic leapers...itā€™s a good matchup for Jerome. I donā€™t think his defense and rebounding will ever turn around fully. Tonight was a good matchup for him.

Now here's a reasoned response. And probably has some truth to it.

But you've disregarded the Penn St and Maryland games, where Jerome showed the same tenacious demeanor. Both of those teams had numerous kids that are long and athletic...

But, as I said above, we'll see...I hope Jerome continues on his upward trajectory...that can only mean good things for IU.

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13 hours ago, Artesian_86 said:

Nope...I went to Green Township Elementary andĀ Smith Elementary thenĀ to West Middle School and on toĀ Martinsville High School....

Poston Road, Martinsville Jr High (they only had 1 then...out by East Elementary) and the old Martinsville High School here...

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As much as the freak medical set back that Jerome went through, I wonder what type of training some of the guys were able to get whenever all the colleges sent everyone home.Ā  Weren't IU's guys essentially home and off campus, not training with the team and coaches for over 3 months?Ā Ā 

I mentioned before, my neighbor kids, 2 smaller school d 1 athletes hardest workout in 3 months was carrying 2 30 packs of stones from the car to the house.Ā  To go along with the 12 ounce curls.Ā  There is no doubt in my mind they regressed.Ā  Could it be Jerome didn't have access or lost the drive for that 3 month period and is just now getting back to where he was the last 10 games of the season?Ā  We've talked about his legs looking weak and now he's tussling and dunking?Ā  His confidence and demeanor has taken as much leap as his legs.Ā Ā 

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59 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

As much as the freak medical set back that Jerome went through, I wonder what type of training some of the guys were able to get whenever all the colleges sent everyone home.Ā  Weren't IU's guys essentially home and off campus, not training with the team and coaches for over 3 months?Ā Ā 

I mentioned before, my neighbor kids, 2 smaller school d 1 athletes hardest workout in 3 months was carrying 2 30 packs of stones from the car to the house.Ā  To go along with the 12 ounce curls.Ā  There is no doubt in my mind they regressed.Ā  Could it be Jerome didn't have access or lost the drive for that 3 month period and is just now getting back to where he was the last 10 games of the season?Ā  We've talked about his legs looking weak and now he's tussling and dunking?Ā  His confidence and demeanor has taken as much leap as his legs.Ā Ā 

A possibility...

I keep going back to the 3 Jerome hit late in the Maryland game and the arse chewing Archie was giving him in the huddle...all the while, Jerome was nodding and saying, "I know coach." Showed me a certain confidence and swagger...

As much as he tacitly chastised the shot in the post game, I think he liked the show of confidence.

It didn't seem to land Jerome in the doghouse at all...

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1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

I have a suggestion then...

The question was directed to the forum in general...not you specifically. If you don't like people pushing back then don't respond.

By its very definition "opportunity"Ā  is onlyĀ 

"a set of circumstances that makes it possible to do something."

In Jerome's case, and all players for that matter, the opportunity is increased or decreased by how well or poorly they play. It's not theĀ reasonĀ they play well or poorly. That's more dictated by practice habits (see Anthony Leal, who tookĀ advantageĀ of his opportunity), mental attitude, and confidence.Ā 

Something has clicked in Jerome. Maybe he's being the player now that he was before the medical problems. I sure hope so...

Funny, I said I didn't want to get into another definitional discussion, and here you go. Ā 

Don't like people pushing back.Ā OK. Maybe don't like mental backflips and gymnastics in attemptedĀ  recasting of a simple point in an apparent effort to try to 'win' an incredibly simple point instead of just acknowledging the obvious, and all while ignoring the several responses.Ā 

On the earlier discussion, it is obvious that Hunter in the past 3 games went from 16Ā (again in OT)Ā to 19, to 26 minutes, and that in these games hisĀ role has increased, not just simple minutes, That opportunity came in part because AF was injured -- it is part of the next man up mantra, he has been given more opportunity in these games to bring his offense, and he has shined.

And as a shooter, the extra time, touches and role allow him to get into the flow of the game, the rhythm that most shooters need. Just as he did from February of last year on after getting more floor time and an increased role, his shooting percentages / his scoring efficiency, is going back up in line with his actual ability.

On your point now, that opportunity is increased by how well or poorly players play, of course, but, also, that only goes so far. CAM is a defense-first my way or the highway coach, who gives the younger / newer players less rope, at times strictly, based mostly on their D meeting his strict standards. In CAM's case, how "well" a player plays, at least for the younger guys,Ā is how well he meets CAM's strict defensive standards. Whether that's good or bad long-term or in a particular season is absolutely debatable with plusses and negatives, but while a player onĀ one team would have the opportunity to score well, to play well offensively and rack up the points for his team, that opportunity is not there when the coach is yanking you and limiting your minutes if you don't meet his defensive standard.

Think Jerome would ride the bench under Crean? Of course not. He'd be playing extended minutes and shooting a great deal more. It's just not as simple as saying see, he's now practicing better.Ā 

It's also about positions on the floor and the system and sets a coach wants to run. in Jerome's case, is he better off on the wing or playing more a traditional 4 spot, and how is his opportunity to play in what spot impacted by whether AF is playing, or who we're playing? Against Wisconsin, Jerome was mostly at the 4 from what I saw, he shined, but I'm not sure at least yet that that reflected he's better there, as Wisconsin's forwards are not like some of the other B1G team forwards. I think Jerome is better on the wing, thatĀ  was iirc where he shined most down the stretch last season.

In Leal's case, he has significantly improved his D. No question there, really, and with that came the coach's confidence and extra floor time. it's not just hey, he must have practiced well, it's almost entirely about his D. He's a known shooter, but that didn't give him floor time. He had to bring his D up, and at least in this last game, he has shown he has.

Great to see Leal's defensive improvement, he looked solid all around against Wisc, and now we have the ability with Leal and Hunter getting the run they both need to score, we have a greater ability to spread the floor, something this team has badly needed.

Ā 

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20 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

As much as the freak medical set back that Jerome went through, I wonder what type of training some of the guys were able to get whenever all the colleges sent everyone home.Ā  Weren't IU's guys essentially home and off campus, not training with the team and coaches for over 3 months?Ā Ā 

I mentioned before, my neighbor kids, 2 smaller school d 1 athletes hardest workout in 3 months was carrying 2 30 packs of stones from the car to the house.Ā  To go along with the 12 ounce curls.Ā  There is no doubt in my mind they regressed.Ā  Could it be Jerome didn't have access or lost the drive for that 3 month period and is just now getting back to where he was the last 10 games of the season?Ā  We've talked about his legs looking weak and now he's tussling and dunking?Ā  His confidence and demeanor has taken as much leap as his legs.Ā Ā 

A lot to this:

BLOOMINGTON ā€“ ā€œI need a rim.ā€Ā 

Armaan Franklin had been home a week, maybe.Ā 

The college basketball season abruptly shut down, and IUā€™s campus along with it, so Franklin moved back in March. Normally, India Franklin wouldnā€™t need to worry about this. Armaan was away at college most of the time, and Indianapolis is hardly starved for gym space. But COVID-19 shut everyoneā€™s doors. Armaan couldnā€™t even get into the practice facility in Bloomington. The season was over, but there would be a new one eventually, and he was desperate to get shots up.Ā 

ā€œIā€™m like, ā€˜You need a what?ā€™ā€ India Franklin, his mother, said laughing.Ā 

They got one. Put it up that night. The next day, Armaan Franklin started working toward his sophomore season.Ā 

ā€œIt was like a week into quarantine I realized I wasnā€™t really doing much,ā€ he said. ā€œI brought it up to my mom, could we go get a basketball hoop? We went half on it. We set it up that night. The next day I was just out there shooting.ā€

Ā 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2020/12/18/indiana-basketball-armaan-franklin-becoming-complete-guard-hoosiers/3962461001/

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2 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

A lot to this:

BLOOMINGTON ā€“ ā€œI need a rim.ā€Ā 

Armaan Franklin had been home a week, maybe.Ā 

The college basketball season abruptly shut down, and IUā€™s campus along with it, so Franklin moved back in March. Normally, India Franklin wouldnā€™t need to worry about this. Armaan was away at college most of the time, and Indianapolis is hardly starved for gym space. But COVID-19 shut everyoneā€™s doors. Armaan couldnā€™t even get into the practice facility in Bloomington. The season was over, but there would be a new one eventually, and he was desperate to get shots up.Ā 

ā€œIā€™m like, ā€˜You need a what?ā€™ā€ India Franklin, his mother, said laughing.Ā 

They got one. Put it up that night. The next day, Armaan Franklin started working toward his sophomore season.Ā 

ā€œIt was like a week into quarantine I realized I wasnā€™t really doing much,ā€ he said. ā€œI brought it up to my mom, could we go get a basketball hoop? We went half on it. We set it up that night. The next day I was just out there shooting.ā€

Ā 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2020/12/18/indiana-basketball-armaan-franklin-becoming-complete-guard-hoosiers/3962461001/

Yep.Ā  Lots of the local schools shut everyone out.Ā  I know some kids that are top level swimmers for Carmel and they were not allowed in the school's pool.Ā  Had them scrambling for private places to train.Ā Ā 

I imagine unless you had a very favorable relationship with an AD or someone willing to break the rules during quarantine, a bunch of guys fit into the do nothing but drink beer and play video games category.Ā Ā 

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25 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Funny, I said I didn't want to get into another definitional discussion, and here you go. Ā 

Don't like people pushing back.Ā OK. Maybe don't like mental backflips and gymnastics in attemptedĀ  recasting of a simple point in an apparent effort to try to 'win' an incredibly simple point instead of just acknowledging the obvious, and all while ignoring the several responses.Ā 

On the earlier discussion, it is obvious that Hunter in the past 3 games went from 16Ā (again in OT)Ā to 19, to 26 minutes, and that in these games hisĀ role has increased, not just simple minutes, That opportunity came in part because AF was injured -- it is part of the next man up mantra, he has been given more opportunity in these games to bring his offense, and he has shined.

And as a shooter, the extra time, touches and role allow him to get into the flow of the game, the rhythm that most shooters need. Just as he did from February of last year on after getting more floor time and an increased role, his shooting percentages / his scoring efficiency, is going back up in line with his actual ability.

On your point now, that opportunity is increased by how well or poorly players play, of course, but, also, that only goes so far. CAM is a defense-first my way or the highway coach, who gives the younger / newer players less rope, at times strictly, based mostly on their D meeting his strict standards. In CAM's case, how "well" a player plays, at least for the younger guys,Ā is how well he meets CAM's strict defensive standards. Whether that's good or bad long-term or in a particular season is absolutely debatable with plusses and negatives, but while a player onĀ one team would have the opportunity to score well, to play well offensively and rack up the points for his team, that opportunity is not there when the coach is yanking you and limiting your minutes if you don't meet his defensive standard.

Think Jerome would ride the bench under Crean? Of course not. He'd be playing extended minutes and shooting a great deal more. It's just not as simple as saying see, he's now practicing better.Ā 

It's also about positions on the floor and the system and sets a coach wants to run. in Jerome's case, is he better off on the wing or playing more a traditional 4 spot, and how is his opportunity to play in what spot impacted by whether AF is playing, or who we're playing? Against Wisconsin, Jerome was mostly at the 4 from what I saw, he shined, but I'm not sure at least yet that that reflected he's better there, as Wisconsin's forwards are not like some of the other B1G team forwards. I think Jerome is better on the wing, thatĀ  was iirc where he shined most down the stretch last season.

In Leal's case, he has significantly improved his D. No question there, really, and with that came the coach's confidence and extra floor time. it's not just hey, he must have practiced well, it's almost entirely about his D. He's a known shooter, but that didn't give him floor time. He had to bring his D up, and at least in this last game, he has shown he has.

Great to see Leal's defensive improvement, he looked solid all around against Wisc, and now we have the ability with Leal and Hunter getting the run they both need to score, we have a greater ability to spread the floor, something this team has badly needed.

Ā 

In summary, Hoopster is a fan of Jerome, thinks Leal played well against Wisky, and enjoys playing lawyer even when not at work.Ā Ā :coffee:

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38 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Funny, I said I didn't want to get into another definitional discussion, and here you go. Ā 

Don't like people pushing back.Ā OK. Maybe don't like mental backflips and gymnastics in attemptedĀ  recasting of a simple point in an apparent effort to try to 'win' an incredibly simple point instead of just acknowledging the obvious, and all while ignoring the several responses.Ā 

On the earlier discussion, it is obvious that Hunter in the past 3 games went from 16Ā (again in OT)Ā to 19, to 26 minutes, and that in these games hisĀ role has increased, not just simple minutes, That opportunity came in part because AF was injured -- it is part of the next man up mantra, he has been given more opportunity in these games to bring his offense, and he has shined.

And as a shooter, the extra time, touches and role allow him to get into the flow of the game, the rhythm that most shooters need. Just as he did from February of last year on after getting more floor time and an increased role, his shooting percentages / his scoring efficiency, is going back up in line with his actual ability.

On your point now, that opportunity is increased by how well or poorly players play, of course, but, also, that only goes so far. CAM is a defense-first my way or the highway coach, who gives the younger / newer players less rope, at times strictly, based mostly on their D meeting his strict standards. In CAM's case, how "well" a player plays, at least for the younger guys,Ā is how well he meets CAM's strict defensive standards. Whether that's good or bad long-term or in a particular season is absolutely debatable with plusses and negatives, but while a player onĀ one team would have the opportunity to score well, to play well offensively and rack up the points for his team, that opportunity is not there when the coach is yanking you and limiting your minutes if you don't meet his defensive standard.

Think Jerome would ride the bench under Crean? Of course not. He'd be playing extended minutes and shooting a great deal more. It's just not as simple as saying see, he's now practicing better.Ā 

It's also about positions on the floor and the system and sets a coach wants to run. in Jerome's case, is he better off on the wing or playing more a traditional 4 spot, and how is his opportunity to play in what spot impacted by whether AF is playing, or who we're playing? Against Wisconsin, Jerome was mostly at the 4 from what I saw, he shined, but I'm not sure at least yet that that reflected he's better there, as Wisconsin's forwards are not like some of the other B1G team forwards. I think Jerome is better on the wing, thatĀ  was iirc where he shined most down the stretch last season.

In Leal's case, he has significantly improved his D. No question there, really, and with that came the coach's confidence and extra floor time. it's not just hey, he must have practiced well, it's almost entirely about his D. He's a known shooter, but that didn't give him floor time. He had to bring his D up, and at least in this last game, he has shown he has.

Great to see Leal's defensive improvement, he looked solid all around against Wisc, and now we have the ability with Leal and Hunter getting the run they both need to score, we have a greater ability to spread the floor, something this team has badly needed.

Ā 

No one is trying to "win" anything. I asked a question to the forum a ("a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged") to a complex question, and you gave an overly simplistic answer..."opportunity."

Dismissing work ethic, practice, mental attitude, and confidence.Ā 

Anthony Leal is the very embodiment of those traits. Why do you think he even got the opportunity? Because he's shown them something in practice. It carried over to the game. The kid shoots 500 3 point shots a day. Saying his rise on the depth chart and his performance in that game is simply due to opportunity is incredibly dismissive of the hard work, both physically and mentally, he put in to get there...

Same with Jerome Hunter...

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Looking back on Tom Crean's time as coach, I think that you could argue that offering and subsequently signing Jordan Hulls was one of his best decisions. Our culture was at its best when Hulls was there. Oladipo and Sheehey were also known for the kind of work they would put in, but there was absolutely a huge drop off when Hulls left (along with Oladipo and Zeller)Ā I think that this year's freshmen class will have a similar impact on culture. I think that Leal is showing people what it looks like to work. I am not sure what the upper class-men have done as far as their work rate outside of practice, but I know that we hear very little about it. What we have heard about are Franklin, Leal, and TJD (anyone notice how much TJD has improved at putting it on the floor? I don't remember him driving from twenty feet out a single time last year, now it is a regular part of the game plan)Ā as far as work is concerned (maybe to a lesser extent, Phinisee). In a state that eats up those kind of stories and a program that has thrived on stories just like it, it is telling to me that in the four years Archie has been here, this is the first time we have really started to hear about what work is happening outside of practice. I see it as part of the problem that Archie inherited and one that it just now starting to turn around with the last two classes.

Maybe I am reading into it more than I should, but I see the culture as significantly different than previous years. I think Leal and Geronimo and Galloway and Franklin as foundational that way. I'd say TJD, but I don't think he'll be here next year.

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1 minute ago, mchenry34 said:

Maybe I am reading into it more than I should, but I see the culture as significantly different than previous years. I think Leal and Geronimo and Galloway and Franklin as foundational that way. I'd say TJD, but I don't think he'll be here next year

I think so too...

I'd be interested in your thoughts, beyond what you already posted on "why?"

Personally, I think it has to do with leadership by the players, especially the upperclassmen and TJD.

In Archie's first couple of years, I think the culture was one of jealousy and being dismissive of younger players talents.

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