Article on staying patient on coaches, Shaka, followed by CAM

[13th&Jackson]

8 hours ago, tdhoosier said:

Even if he loses the game, he could hypothetically turn things around, finish strong and avoid being fired. Therefore, this game could mean nothing in the long run.

 

Well said. Mike Davis was 9-2 against PU and was fired due to the total body of work.

[NotIThatLives]

How's this for patience?  Give CAM the one more year to prove it. Let the buyout drop. Maybe Parker Stewart helps open things up?  Maybe the big Ferguson picks IU today?  

Calbert gets one more NBA coaching year under his belt.  Comes back and brings Fife and Lewis with him.  An all Indiana toughness coaching bench.

And for the honest pure love of God, stop suggesting Steve Alford.  I'll literally quit.  

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

^^ Talk about timing of my staring this thread, lol. 

It is, deservedly, getting tested. I'm as disappointed in how bad last night's game went as anyone (fwiw).

We're still at 7 B1G games, still time in the season to turn things around, but yes, that needs to happen.

We were tied for 5th, after one game we're in 9th. Not a lot of room for bad games in this schedule. Not a lot of room for failure to improve the offensive sets and strategy. But keeping sight of the forest through these ugly trees, there's still time in the season, let's see how it pans out.

[dgambill]

13 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

^^ Talk about timing of my staring this thread, lol. 

It is, deservedly, getting tested. I'm as disappointed in how bad last night's game went as anyone (fwiw).

We're still at 7 B1G games, still time in the season to turn things around, but yes, that needs to happen.

We were tied for 5th, after one game we're in 9th. Not a lot of room for bad games in this schedule. Not a lot of room for failure to improve the offensive sets and strategy. But keeping sight of the forest through these ugly trees, there's still time in the season, let's see how it pans out.

Stewart, Armaan, Leal, and Hunter are all that has me wanting to see year 5. Knowing those guys can shoot and another year of Galloway improving and the idea that Lander being physically ready and maybe just by a miracle Trayce comes back is what has me holding out hope. I can almost see what this offense could be with some shooting outside but if we have no balance with Trayce inside it will be all for not.

I’ve focused on 5 years to evaluate Archie and I will give him that....he has a big hill to climb though.

[NCHoosier32]

20 hours ago, NotIThatLives said:

How's this for patience?  Give CAM the one more year to prove it. Let the buyout drop. Maybe Parker Stewart helps open things up?  Maybe the big Ferguson picks IU today?  

Calbert gets one more NBA coaching year under his belt.  Comes back and brings Fife and Lewis with him.  An all Indiana toughness coaching bench.

And for the honest pure love of God, stop suggesting Steve Alford.  I'll literally quit.  

 

So I know this coaching scenario is all over this board right now or Smart or anyone who played at IU.  Sounds like a great fairy tale ending, but a couple things come to mind.  Serious question - does it ever happen that 3 former players not currently on the staff randomly come together and make up the entire staff?  Also, none of those guys have ever been a head coach at any level that I know of.  That's a big jump!  Cheaney hasn't even been a main assistant anywhere has he?  I could be wrong there, but I feel like he hasn't even had a big role as an assistant.  People talk about Tonagel not being able to make the jump from lower level to high level.  At least he is a successful head coach at a college level.  

[NotIThatLives]

20 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

So I know this coaching scenario is all over this board right now or Smart or anyone who played at IU.  Sounds like a great fairy tale ending, but a couple things come to mind.  Serious question - does it ever happen that 3 former players not currently on the staff randomly come together and make up the entire staff?  Also, none of those guys have ever been a head coach at any level that I know of.  That's a big jump!  Cheaney hasn't even been a main assistant anywhere has he?  I could be wrong there, but I feel like he hasn't even had a big role as an assistant.  People talk about Tonagel not being able to make the jump from lower level to high level.  At least he is a successful head coach at a college level.  

Might be a three headed monster.  As long as each person coaches to their strength and they cover each other's weaknesses.  I could see Lewis being or becoming a strong voice.  These guys have been around a lot of basketball operations at many levels.  

It's extremely improbable but it's these scenarios that make the message boards go round.  

[NCHoosier32]

8 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Might be a three headed monster.  As long as each person coaches to their strength and they cover each other's weaknesses.  I could see Lewis being or becoming a strong voice.  These guys have been around a lot of basketball operations at many levels.  

It's extremely improbable but it's these scenarios that make the message boards go round.  

Gotcha.  Absolutely no problem with ideas like that.  Just don't think it's likely like you say.  It's so hard to say these days what will work.  I am an old school fan, but bball society is so different these days.  I'm starting to think being a players coach and being cool may be one of the more important coaching traits?  

[NotIThatLives]

3 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

Gotcha.  Absolutely no problem with ideas like that.  Just don't think it's likely like you say.  It's so hard to say these days what will work.  I am an old school fan, but bball society is so different these days.  I'm starting to think being a players coach and being cool may be one of the more important coaching traits?  

Sad I know.  I like Huggy bear.  But I'm ready for a Pearl.  Screw it.  I don't give 1 crap about bbq's or an assistant giving a kid 10k.  That's chump change compared to what the big dogs have been shelling out for decades.  

[BGleas]

3 hours ago, NCHoosier32 said:

So I know this coaching scenario is all over this board right now or Smart or anyone who played at IU.  Sounds like a great fairy tale ending, but a couple things come to mind.  Serious question - does it ever happen that 3 former players not currently on the staff randomly come together and make up the entire staff?  Also, none of those guys have ever been a head coach at any level that I know of.  That's a big jump!  Cheaney hasn't even been a main assistant anywhere has he?  I could be wrong there, but I feel like he hasn't even had a big role as an assistant.  People talk about Tonagel not being able to make the jump from lower level to high level.  At least he is a successful head coach at a college level.  

To go along with your point here, I've also seen the former player thing framed like "it's worked for Michigan." 

Juwan Howard is a unicorn, and lets be honest he's also leveraging what Beilein built. A lot different taking over a program that's on auto-pilot and has had a ton of recent success. 

But my main point is that Howard is a really unique situation. He was part of team that was a cultural phenomenon. They literally did a 30-for-30 on his Michigan teams and it was basically a commercial for those guys. 

While kids today didn't see the Fab 5, they know all about them and their cultural significance, and their parents are the age that Fab 5 was a phenomenon during their childhood. 

I love Calbert Chaeney, one of my favorite players ever, but  he nor any other former IU player (except maybe IT), has the national cache of the main Fab 5 guys like Howard, Rose and Webber. 

[rico]

12 minutes ago, BGleas said:

To go along with your point here, I've also seen the former player thing framed like "it's worked for Michigan." 

Juwan Howard is a unicorn, and lets be honest he's also leveraging what Beilein built. A lot different taking over a program that's on auto-pilot and has had a ton of recent success. 

But my main point is that Howard is a really unique situation. He was part of team that was a cultural phenomenon. They literally did a 30-for-30 on his Michigan teams and it was basically a commercial for those guys. 

While kids today didn't see the Fab 5, they know all about them and their cultural significance, and their parents are the age that Fab 5 was a phenomenon during their childhood. 

I love Calbert Chaeney, one of my favorite players ever, but  he nor any other former IU player (except maybe IT), has the national cache of the main Fab 5 guys like Howard, Rose and Webber. 

Soooooo....we need to hire Larry Bird.

[BobSaccamanno]

I love Cheaney too but he doesn’t have the resume for this job. 

There are a lot of good coaches out there.  The notion that there aren’t is silly.  

I am concerned that Dolson would want to hire an IU guy and unnecessarily constrain his search.  The argument would be, “had enough of not hiring an IU guy?  How’d that work out?”  

Meanwhile, watch what Kansas and UNC do when they make a switch.  They will do it right.

[Brass Cannon]

Shaka Smart had 2 NCAA appearances, an above .500 record in conference at least one season and an NIT Championship in his first 4 seasons. 
 

Will we have any of that?  Plus I don’t think his recruiting fell off a cliff the way Archies has 

[BGleas]

3 minutes ago, rico said:

Soooooo....we need to hire Larry Bird.

I'm just saying hiring Calbert, Keith Smart, Michael Lewis, etc., is not the same thing as Michigan hiring Howard. 

We don't know how good of a coach Howard will end up being of course. He's currently riding the coattails of what Beilein built and also leveraging being Juwan Howard (member of the Fab 5, good NBA player, experienced NBA assistant). How that holds up long term remains to be seen, but there are no IU guys like that, outside of IT. 

An IU guy at IU could end up being better, but it's still much different than Michigan hiring Howard. 

[BGleas]

3 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Shaka Smart had 2 NCAA appearances, an above .500 record in conference at least one season and an NIT Championship in his first 4 seasons. 
 

Will we have any of that?  Plus I don’t think his recruiting fell off a cliff the way Archies has 

I believe Texas has something like 8-10 top 100 recruits on its roster. IU doesn't have a single rotational top 100 recruit in its backcourt. 

[rico]

3 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Shaka Smart had 2 NCAA appearances, an above .500 record in conference at least one season and an NIT Championship in his first 4 seasons. 
 

Will we have any of that?  Plus I don’t think his recruiting fell off a cliff the way Archies has 

Along the way, Shaka had some personnel issues as well.  And he still was able to win.

[BobSaccamanno]

2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I believe Texas has something like 8-10 top 100 recruits on its roster. IU doesn't have a single rotational top 100 recruit in its backcourt. 

You are totally right to bang the drum on this.  I really, really like guys like Galloway and Leal.  I actually think it’s essential to have some guys like that on the roster.  But the problem is actually what you are championing.  We lack premier talents.   TJD and Lander are the two elite recruits we have, and Hunter was pretty well ranked but has the well known condition he’s working off.   That’s not enough.  Look at any of our great teams, they had combination of big time talent and guys who did all the right things.  

[dgambill]

26 minutes ago, BGleas said:

To go along with your point here, I've also seen the former player thing framed like "it's worked for Michigan." 

Juwan Howard is a unicorn, and lets be honest he's also leveraging what Beilein built. A lot different taking over a program that's on auto-pilot and has had a ton of recent success. 

But my main point is that Howard is a really unique situation. He was part of team that was a cultural phenomenon. They literally did a 30-for-30 on his Michigan teams and it was basically a commercial for those guys. 

While kids today didn't see the Fab 5, they know all about them and their cultural significance, and their parents are the age that Fab 5 was a phenomenon during their childhood. 

I love Calbert Chaeney, one of my favorite players ever, but  he nor any other former IU player (except maybe IT), has the national cache of the main Fab 5 guys like Howard, Rose and Webber. 

Yep perfectly said...let’s be real...a lot of the reason that it has been hard to recreate IUs success is because it was largely built on Bobby Knight. He made most of those teams great because of his coaching. He recognized exactly what his teams needed to get spurred on to success. Sometimes it was tough love...sometimes it was fear, sometimes he had to let up on the reins. Mostly he knew and got the players that could translate to his system and be winners...when the landscape changed and players changed and his drive waned it started to go away...although everyone could see the team he brought in that final year was full of “his” guys...one last hurrah of old school Knight ball. 
We’ve largely never been a team of stars or a team full of iconic talent...it was Knight.
 

There are very few of those type of figures out there (Knight) that can just take kids and coach them up and beat you purely x/o’s. I’m not sure an IU guy is what we need...and you are right we have no Juwan to fall back on. Alford is as close to that and he has been exposed as a coach. We just need to find a guy that is a damn good coach and one that kids want to play for. Kids will gravitate to that. We don’t need a gimmicky coach, or try to outsmart everyone and find some diamond in the rough. Find the real deal and let him do his thing.

[rico]

RMK wouldn't win himself the way CBB is today.

[IUwins0708]

I may be in the minority but I absolutely want an IU guy this time.  We’ve tried 4 times without it and it turned out awful each time.

[rico]

2 minutes ago, IUwins0708 said:

I may be in the minority but I absolutely want an IU guy this time.  We’ve tried 4 times without it and it turned out awful each time.

Has that window closed?

[BGleas]

10 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

You are totally right to bang the drum on this.  I really, really like guys like Galloway and Leal.  I actually think it’s essential to have some guys like that on the roster.  But the problem is actually what you are championing.  We lack premier talents.   TJD and Lander are the two elite recruits we have, and Hunter was pretty well ranked but has the well known condition he’s working off.   That’s not enough.  Look at any of our great teams, they had combination of big time talent and guys who did all the right things.  

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong I love Franklin, Leal and Galloway. I'm high on all three of those guys. But your team is great when those guys are surrounding a team with guys like Zeller, Watford and Yogi. 

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong I love Franklin, Leal and Galloway. I'm high on all three of those guys. But your team is great when those guys are surrounding a team with guys like Zeller, Watford and Yogi. 

Honest question @BGleas... You don't think Franklin was outplaying his ranking and on his way to being one of the better guards in the B1G before his ankle injury? 

[IUwins0708]

3 minutes ago, rico said:

Has that window closed?

I don’t think it has.  I think they are tired of seeing the product on the floor and some would jump at the chance to rebuild it to the program it use to be

[Hippopotamo]

Just now, IUwins0708 said:

I don’t think it has.  I think they are tired of seeing the product on the floor and some would jump at the chance to rebuild it to the program it use to be

Which former IU guys do you think would be ready to take over the program? Alford is the one with the most experience (unless I’m forgetting someone) but I would be incredibly disappointed if he was hired. 

[jefftheref]

2 minutes ago, IUwins0708 said:

I may be in the minority but I absolutely want an IU guy this time.  We’ve tried 4 times without it and it turned out awful each time.

We can't do any worse. Crean brought the program back but he was not the long term solution. Archie has failed miserably up to this point and in my opinion the future is looking pretty bleak. His recruiting is on the same plane as Crean's. He might be better at the defensive side but his offensive strategy is horrendous. I believe that opposing coaches are using that against him in the recruiting battles. We are dying a long slow death. Crean's statement "This is Indiana" means absolutely nothing to people anymore. 
I would be interested in which alumni you think should be considered if there was an opening. 

As always, thank you for everything you have brought to this board. I really appreciate it and can't wait to read what you post.