It’s time... Fire Archie Miller

[Parakeet Jones]

5 hours ago, TheWatShot said:

Then there was his first game. I was out that night and went to check the score on my phone. I seriously thought I was becoming dyslexic when I saw the halftime score. No matter how many coaches we end up bringing here, I doubt any of them will ever drop a bigger turd in their opening game. Holy sh*t that was bad. 

I was there that night. Walking back to the car after the game I thought to myself, “I hope four years from now we aren’t looking back saying we should have seen it coming from the beginning.”  I pushed the thought from my mind because I thought it was crazy and I was just frustrated. Maybe not. 

[CincyHoosier]

3 hours ago, Sea Turtle said:

What emotional ties did Saban have at Alabama? What emotional ties did Brian Kelly have at Notre Dame?

IU basketball in 2021 is not what ND football or Bama football was when those coaches took over.  This program is running on Bob Knight's fumes. 

[jblaz13]

If you're wondering what point I might be trying to imply, 

it is merely that the timing doesn't appear to be able to get much worse for potemtially shelling bonuses , raising the pay,  and replacing departed  football staff while considering and amassing resources needed to do another buyout housecleaning of the basketball staff .

Then make a clear obvious move up the perceived coaching name value ladder as some have alluded directly to here .

I just worry about the costs of one coming at the expense of the other without anything coming in at the gates.

 

[HoosierJax]

Does anyone know if Tom Allen can coach basketball?

[3Ballin]

13 minutes ago, HoosierJax said:

Does anyone know if Tom Allen can coach basketball?

We know Terri Moren can.  Just sayin  

[southsidehoosier]

1 hour ago, Parakeet Jones said:

I was there that night. Walking back to the car after the game I thought to myself, “I hope four years from now we aren’t looking back saying we should have seen it coming from the beginning.”  I pushed the thought from my mind because I thought it was crazy and I was just frustrated. Maybe not. 

Hope you didn’t attend the IPFW game that year either. Can’t imagine what people thought who witnessed those 2 games in person 

[Parakeet Jones]

2 minutes ago, southsidehoosier said:

Hope you didn’t attend the IPFW game that year either. Can’t imagine what people thought who witnessed those 2 games in person 

I did.  

[Parakeet Jones]

51 minutes ago, jblaz13 said:

If you're wondering what point I might be trying to imply, 

it is merely that the timing doesn't appear to be able to get much worse for potemtially shelling bonuses , raising the pay,  and replacing departed  football staff while considering and amassing resources needed to do another buyout housecleaning of the basketball staff .

Then make a clear obvious move up the perceived coaching name value ladder as some have alluded directly to here .

I just worry about the costs of one coming at the expense of the other without anything coming in at the gates.

 

This is 100% true and the reality we all need to face.  As much as I truly doubt he is the guy, your post is part of the reason why, certainly not the only reason why, that I hope he proves me wrong and gets this thing turned around.  

[Fiveoutofsix]

It's time to give the keys to one of the rock star personalities from the IU tree.  We need someone with a personality, a 100% commitment and over time.  So one who gets out there.

Give it to Alford, Lewis, Smart, Woody anyone from the IU tree that gets what Indiana means to the alumni and fans.

 

[OLDIUFAN]

I read a lot of people on here who are talking like Defense is a bad thing. Do you remember the Crean teams. We will out run the other team don’t worry about turn overs and defense let’s win 92/91. 
His teams stopped scoring also and we wanted some defense. The truth is the really good teams do both. Play hard defense and score. 
someone said recruiting has fallen off! How do you know. We have gotten Indiana Mr. Basketball players and they can’t shoot. Don’t play hard all the time. That’s on CAM. 
We are not getting better! I am soooo tired of losing home games! To anyone ,but losing 5 homes games in a row to Purdue!!! Is unacceptable! There was a time when IU was feared, then we became just another game  on the schedule, now we are a game that every team says we should win this game. Even at IU. 
You know it’s hard to recruit when recruits can look at the coach and say if I come there are you going to be there! It’s a problem , something has to change. Need a culture change one that demands playing hard and winning basketball! 
Archie sounds just like Crean, yeah we need to watch the film and go to work. We need to work on this and that. Game after game the same thing. 
Poor shooting, Teams lite us up for some reason, Terrible free throw shooters! Has this not been the problem for the last 6 years. Archie owns 4 of them. 
 

 

[NCHoosier32]

I'm AMAZED to see all the negativity from the very people who jump on my every post when I'm not all sunshiney!  I say go hard after Greg Tonagel.  I know, I know... big difference in level of game, but if you got it, you got it.  I'll agree with the argument of questioning his recruiting ability, but that's about it.  Now, I think recruiting is HUGE for sure, so I'd rather get a big name as anyone would, but if we're not gonna do it, go after Tonagel.  

[RoadToZion]

Laugh at this all you want but. . .

I miss Tom Crean.

[5fouls]

7 hours ago, BGleas said:

Something has been completely off with this program for 4 years and I'm dumbfounded by it. I'll never forget Archie's first Hoosier Hysteria. I wasn't expecting it to be like 2013 or anything, the team wasn't that good, but I thought the fans would go crazy over Archie being announced at the event and the anticipation of a new coach. I was excited to watch. Then he got announced and came out and you could hear a pin drop. It was almost awkward. 

That kind of sums up the last 4 years. Anticipation at various points, but always coming up short and disappointing. I've said this numerous times, but I thought Archie was going to change the culture of the program. I thought he was going to be a pitbull coach who's teams reflected his personality. 

I expected the talent to take a little bit of time, but I thought while we waited we would be like Wisconsin, Michigan State and Purdue as far as the attitude, effort and tenacity. I thought Archie was going to build an identity and a culture and then as he got it up and running it would be infused with talent. 

None of these things have come to fruition. Like others I'm an Archie supporter, but geez at some point you have to win. At some point you have to stop losing games like NW at home. At some point you have to string a run of Big Ten games together. At some point you have to win the important swing games that are the difference between 3rd place and 8th place. At some point you have to be the team nobody else wants to play. 

Finally at some point you have to beat Purdue. You just do. 

With all of that said, I don't think you fire Archie just to bring in another mid-major. You have to go big-game hunting and then if that doesn't work you have to bring in a coach with a proven Power 5 record. If you swing on the big fish, maybe you call someone like Rick Barnes? He's got a good thing going at Tennessee, but IU still does carry some cache. 

But, I'm nearing the point of where I was with Crean at the end. I don't really care if they fire him if this year goes south. 

I experienced something similar, only it was on Senior Day.  I had never been to Senior Day before, but always wanted to go.  I had seen clips of the event in the past.  A lot of emotion from both the players and the coaches.   Knight, especially, was prone to showing a lot of emotion for some of his favorites.  Well, I finally got to go to a Senior Day in 2019,  The players that year were Juwan, McRoberts, Fitzner, and Quentin Taylor. Not, the most memorable Senior class, but one with a diversity of stories to share.  

What did I get from the experience?  Not what I expected.  Nothing special at all.  Archie announced each player, but there was not a hint of emotion.  No special memories, and nothing that felt personal at all.  Juwan talked much more about Crean than he did Archie, even though he played an equal amount for both.  Fitzner did not even thank Archie for the opportunity.  Literally, the words 'Coach Miller' were not even uttered in his speech at all.  Even McRoberts, the Indiana kid who was probably living out his dream.  Went from walk-on to starter and key contributor during Archie;s time.  His speech was devoid of any real emotion. 

It makes me wonder if we somehow had another WatShot moment with one of Archie's teams, what the reaction would even be.   

 

[Billingsley99]

1 minute ago, RoadToZion said:

Laugh at this all you want but. . .

I miss Tom Crean.

AMEN. at least I personally felt we were going to win, currently I have no hope of winning games. When we do I am happy and surprised 

[IUwins0708]

7 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

I'm AMAZED to see all the negativity from the very people who jump on my every post when I'm not all sunshiney!  I say go hard after Greg Tonagel.  I know, I know... big difference in level of game, but if you got it, you got it.  I'll agree with the argument of questioning his recruiting ability, but that's about it.  Now, I think recruiting is HUGE for sure, so I'd rather get a big name as anyone would, but if we're not gonna do it, go after Tonagel.  

If you can coach you can coach.  I just want someone who can freaking coach!!!

[Euroclydon]

I like Archie but it's time to be realistic. What that means is he's not going anywhere this season.

He's not getting it done in the win column and that's really all that matters. As far as we know grades are good, kids are not getting into trouble, the team likes each other, and they do put forth the effort. But success is measured by results and IU/Archie have not had the kind of results that were expected.

We understand the conference is loaded but this is four straight seasons of being dormant in conference. That's just a fact.

Yes, recruiting has been better than what we were seeing under Crean, but it's not upper tier and more important it's not enough to compete for a conference title, let alone a national championship. Of late, it's been more miss than hit.

The inability to land enough size to be competitive in the B1G is unexplainable. TJD is great and three years in Race is showing signs, but the consistent lack of depth stands out compared to virtually every other team in the conference. At no point in his time here has Archie found a way to put multiple bigs together into a nice rotation. Even if Brunk were playing IU would be the smaller, less athletic team inside in just about every conference game. 

Shooting is a skill that can be developed. Why is it IU players do not seem to be improving outside of Armaan Franklin?  You can argue Hunter has improved but he is hitting one per game on average so it's not a case of him being "reliable" and impacting the game on offense. 

Defense was Archie's calling card coming in. The mighty pack line D. It has been better than Crean's "non-defense" but it's not exactly set to Lock Down mode. It can be very good, but it cannot overcome the obvious shortcomings when it matters most. Cannot get multiple stops when needed and cannot get key rebounds to put the other team away. Another example of good not great. Certainly not enough to complete in the conference against the best.

Back to reality - Archie is not going anywhere anytime soon. IU is facing financial issues already due to covid and the shutdown. His buyout is $13+ million. That's just half of the problem. Who do you replace him with that you would reasonably believe can turn things around quickly and how much would that cost? The answer is, it costs more than IU is able to pay. 

More reality - I'm hoping IU can find some answers quickly and turn it around; however, they could easily be staring a long string of losses in the face. Sound familiar? A long losing streak? If that happens Archie's only option is to let the young guys play, take their lumps which could happen regardless, and hope the freshmen can take over next season. Sadly, it's time to close the book on Al and Rob. They are offering little to nothing much too often at this point in their careers.

Reality is not looking kind to IU basketball right now. I hope I'm way off but four years in the answer is clear - It's not working.

 

 

 

[AxnJxn]

Some good points here, but I would just say the season isn't over yet. We are seeing some good things on the court - Armaan Franklin is going to be a spectacular player, Race Thompson is playing better and better, and the freshman group is getting good minutes and producing. I'd say the most disappointing thing ... again ... is the production we're not getting from our upperclassmen guards. Rob was ok, Al was mostly non-existent, and the shooting. 

I get the frustration, especially after losing again to Purdue, and I get all of the questions about Archie, and I have them, too. But, I've also seen glimpses of how good this team can be, and I'm also seeing the effort on the court. We weren't missing effort last night, we just can't shoot the basketball, even when we get wide open shots or are standing at the FT line with no one in front of us. Look at the numbers - shoot just 30% from 3, which is still kinda bad, and our usual below average percentage from the line, and it's a W. It's entirely possible CAM has everything working except the actual shooting, and that can be fixed.

Also, I'd love to see the shot chart, because I would wager it was very similar to Purdue's.

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

Some good points here, but I would just say the season isn't over yet. We are seeing some good things on the court - Armaan Franklin is going to be a spectacular player, Race Thompson is playing better and better, and the freshman group is getting good minutes and producing. I'd say the most disappointing thing ... again ... is the production we're not getting from our upperclassmen guards. Rob was ok, Al was mostly non-existent, and the shooting. 

I get the frustration, especially after losing again to Purdue, and I get all of the questions about Archie, and I have them, too. But, I've also seen glimpses of how good this team can be, and I'm also seeing the effort on the court. We weren't missing effort last night, we just can't shoot the basketball, even when we get wide open shots or are standing at the FT line with no one in front of us. Look at the numbers - shoot just 30% from 3, which is still kinda bad, and our usual below average percentage from the line, and it's a W. It's entirely possible CAM has everything working except the actual shooting, and that can be fixed.

Also, I'd love to see the shot chart, because I would wager it was very similar to Purdue's.

I agree with most of this, up to the bolded part...I think we see effort most of the time...

And here's the shot chart...

[IUrocker]

Even though we seem to get good looks and may just be a matter of players not knocking down shots, our offense is just not very fun to watch at all. It’s very predictable and ends up stagnant. A lot of dribbling around and hoping someone happens to get open and if not then chuck it up before you hear that shot buzzer go off. Most of the “plays” look the same. We dribble hand off around the top and feed the post if there’s an opening. Nothing creative. Purdue looked so fluid in their sets that when they put up their shot, it made you go “crap...” right after they released it...and what do you know, they were 10/14 from deep at one point. I realize Painter does well at finding guys who can shoot the ball, but when you watch them play (especially against us...uggh) it’s more than just happening to have an open shot. They are very definitive in their execution and when they put up their shot, it’s like it was EXACTLY what was supposed to happen. It is crazy how with Crean we complained about defense but now with Archie it’s the offense. A fluid, explosive, well-oiled machine type of offense is way more exciting to me than having a really good defense but then hope we score 70 a game. I don’t necessarily care if we don’t have a top 10 defense...give me top 30 with a team who will put up 80-90 a game. I wanna have fun again. 

[BGleas]

50 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I experienced something similar, only it was on Senior Day.  I had never been to Senior Day before, but always wanted to go.  I had seen clips of the event in the past.  A lot of emotion from both the players and the coaches.   Knight, especially, was prone to showing a lot of emotion for some of his favorites.  Well, I finally got to go to a Senior Day in 2019,  The players that year were Juwan, McRoberts, Fitzner, and Quentin Taylor. Not, the most memorable Senior class, but one with a diversity of stories to share.  

What did I get from the experience?  Not what I expected.  Nothing special at all.  Archie announced each player, but there was not a hint of emotion.  No special memories, and nothing that felt personal at all.  Juwan talked much more about Crean than he did Archie, even though he played an equal amount for both.  Fitzner did not even thank Archie for the opportunity.  Literally, the words 'Coach Miller' were not even uttered in his speech at all.  Even McRoberts, the Indiana kid who was probably living out his dream.  Went from walk-on to starter and key contributor during Archie;s time.  His speech was devoid of any real emotion. 

It makes me wonder if we somehow had another WatShot moment with one of Archie's teams, what the reaction would even be.   

 

Completely agree, that was absolutely another headscratching moment. I too remember that senior day and was also expecting some big emotional connection between Archie and Juwan Morgan. 

Maybe it would have happened anyway, but the fact is Archie was the coach when Morgan got his chance to be the man, show what he can do, and lead a Big Ten team. Sure the results weren't always great, but Archie is the one that handed Morgan the ball and let him lead the program. 

I thought there would be some bond over that.  But as you said, Morgan hardly even mentioned Archie and actually talked more about Devonte Green convincing him not to transfer than anything else. 

There's just been a lack of emotion and a lack of passion from this program since Archie got here. 

There's no enthusiasm, where it be from the fans, players or coaches, and its been that way for 4 years. 

[Zuckerkorn]

10 hours ago, CTrojan88 said:

What IU guys are out there?  I’ve seen Cheaney, Smart.....thinking Fife, Alford....who else.  Dare I say Dakich  😳

Dakich just got a new job in Jacksonville - head ball washer with the jaguars. 😆

[5fouls]

2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Completely agree, that was absolutely another headscratching moment. I too remember that senior day and was also expecting some big emotional connection between Archie and Juwan Morgan. 

Maybe it would have happened anyway, but the fact is Archie was the coach when Morgan got his chance to be the man, show what he can do, and lead a Big Ten team. Sure the results weren't always great, but Archie is the one that handed Morgan the ball and let him lead the program. 

I thought there would be some bond over that.  But as you said, Morgan hardly even mentioned Archie and actually talked more about Devonte Green convincing him not to transfer than anything else. 

There's just been a lack of emotion and a lack of passion from this program since Archie got here. 

There's no enthusiasm, where it be from the fans, players or coaches, and its been that way for 4 years. 

And, we won that Senior Day game against Rutgers, so it's not like everyone was upset about a loss.  

[rico]

I let reality set in with me quite a few games back.  And tbh I have more questions than I have answers. 

Purdue started out hot from behind the arc...yet no adjustment was made.  It is like the defense was set up to "hope they miss."  And it stayed that way the whole game.

Al and Rob were cornjerkin', which we are used to, but still no adjustment in a "must have" game.

There never was a sense of urgency, which pisses me off, with under 10 minutes to go.  

I could go on and on.  But it boils down to Arch better find a way to win and win now.  This fan is sick and tired of waiting.  No excuses, I want wins.  If he can't win this season then I want a coach who can next season.

[NotIThatLives]

9 hours ago, IU Scott said:

To me this guy would be the perfect replacement if he was just a few years younger John Bielien.

There is a reason he didn't get hired this off season.  You can't call players thugs and get called out publicly and not one current or former player speaks up on your behalf.  He is done at the highest levels.  Done

[IUrocker]

Archie after the game “This team has to be able to get some stops and find a way to play defensively very tight and very tough-minded. It has to find a way to have its defense as something that it can rely on because offense is hard.” 
 
I’m sorry but there are quite a bit of teams out there that don’t make offense look hard at all. Crean pushed so hard to have a high flying offense because he didn’t know how to coach defense...Now Archie is pushing so hard at thinking the only key is having a sound defense because he must not know too much about having a good offense.