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It’s time... Fire Archie Miller


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1 hour ago, 5 championships said:

Alright I’ll bite in the most honest way I see it...

Archie had been dealt some unlucky circumstances/breaks or what ever you wanna call them that has  really kept the program from taking off. Lets just begin at the beginning.
 
Year 1: basically a pass for everything. Transitioning year.

Year 2: Archie had a really nice Roster his 2nd year but the roster got destroyed with Race,Rob,Green,Mcroberts,Romeo,Jerome, Deron. all experienced multiple game/season long injury’s. That by itself is incredible. that team was STILL a play in game with Ohio State from the tournament. If it’s healthy had a chance to be a second weekend team.. really tough break for Arch. That team could of really got the ball rolling and The losing streak cost them KBJ in my opinion. 
 

Year 3: Rob and Race dealt with injury’s and I’m sure I’m missing someone else. Improvement on Kenpom in defense and offense rankings. Had some tough close losses but Got to 20 wins. Was headed to the NCAA tournament and then Covid. Again Another momentum killer for Arch. 
 

Year 4: More injury’s, more close losses, and still improvement on offense and defense rankings..If we pull off Florida state game and Wisconsin game. Which we were one possession away in each game then we are 10-4, ranked in top 25, and completely talked about differently right now. We are literally  2 possessions away from that. Tough breaks again for Arch! 
 

I still like a lot of things Archie is doing we have been so close for the last 3 years now. The BIG is absolutely brutal which hurts us from gaining more momentum/seeing the winning results quicker. People make it seems like we aren’t close to winning but dang it we are right there. 
 

with that said Arch honestly has been dealt some tough breaks and I hate it for him but it’s year 4 we need to start seeing some wins!  Really the only complaint I have is the development of shooting and the inability to land a really good guard. Though  I think Franklin, Lander, Stewert could be really good in the next 2 years but that might be to late for Arch. You can’t win in the BIG when Rob and Al play 30+ minutes and can’t even combine to get 10 points. A telling stat is IU 5-1 when Durham scores 10+. But Some of that is on Archie to develop them and some of that is the fact that they weren’t highly rated guys anyways. 
 

It’s kind of like the Tom Allen situation before he started to win. You can see a solid foundation is being built and I like a lot of the things I see in how we play. Our defense and offense numbers continue to improve but in the end you have to find a way to close out games in the final 2 minutes and win. It’s year 4. Times is running out. I really hope Arch can find a way to get us over the hump these next couple months. I’ll let the season play out but even though I like Arch if he doesn’t get us to the tourney this year then it’s a sweet 16 or your gone year 5. 

These are all phenomenal points and it’s hard to argue with anything you’ve said. I’ve been a pretty solid supporter of Archie and really liked the hire, but I tend to agree that if after the end of year 5 and we don’t show a different level of progress that IU will probably have to move on. I really want it to work and I think it can but Archie will need to be willing to adapt a bit. It’s obvious something is missing and if we didn’t look so dead in these losses I think there would be more patient. It’s just sad to see. 

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Just now, dgambill said:

I think we are a little premature...a little knee jerk from the back to back Purdue debacles. I’m not saying his seat isn’t enfuego but I’m interested in seeing this play out.

Agree. This isn't a lost cause. If we can ever get Franklin, Phinisee and Durham to all play well at the same time for a several game stretch we'll be in good shape. 

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This isn't a complicated argument from an AD/university perspective. "We don't pay you north of $3 mill/yr to be 0-6 against Purdue in your 4th year. As head coach, it's your job to figure out how to win, and if your system isn't working, you need to make the necessary adjustments or you're out of a job." 

I understand contractual employment, but in no other line of work would you be allowed to continually fail without being let go. I wanted this guy to work out, but there's always been some X factor missing since the day he took over. Cut bait on this guy already. 

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7 minutes ago, BEKA said:

This isn't a complicated argument from an AD/university perspective. "We don't pay you north of $3 mill/yr to be 0-6 against Purdue in your 4th year. As head coach, it's your job to figure out how to win, and if your system isn't working, you need to make the necessary adjustments or you're out of a job." 

I understand contractual employment, but in no other line of work would you be allowed to continually fail without being let go. I wanted this guy to work out, but there's always been some X factor missing since the day he took over. Cut bait on this guy already. 

Harbaugh turned his worst season ever into a contract extension...so let’s not get ahead of ourselves...Archie may just be seeing how much more he can get.

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10 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Agree. This isn't a lost cause. If we can ever get Franklin, Phinisee and Durham to all play well at the same time for a several game stretch we'll be in good shape. 

Not sure if that will ever happen but sure thing. Seems when Armaan is on the floor the upperclassman just aren’t aggressive and sit back and wait for him to do everything. I hate to say this but I’d be shocked if Rob and Al are back next year...like wow!! Shocked. They honestly rarely look like they are happy and enjoying themselves and they just aren’t at the level we need to win big. Not sure what we expect. Rob a mid 100s recruit and Al almost a 300 ranked recruit...our backcourt is pedestrian at best. Nothing electric nothing special...nothing that you can rely on to win you games. They play good defense...that’s it. That ain’t going to cut it...and why I was so excited to land a Mohammed.

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14 minutes ago, BEKA said:

This isn't a complicated argument from an AD/university perspective. "We don't pay you north of $3 mill/yr to be 0-6 against Purdue in your 4th year. As head coach, it's your job to figure out how to win, and if your system isn't working, you need to make the necessary adjustments or you're out of a job." 

I understand contractual employment, but in no other line of work would you be allowed to continually fail without being let go. I wanted this guy to work out, but there's always been some X factor missing since the day he took over. Cut bait on this guy already. 

I think even Archie would agree that being 0-6 against Purdue puts you on a course for firing.  He’s not an idiot.  

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4 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Harbaugh turned his worst season ever into a contract extension...so let’s not get ahead of ourselves...Archie may just be seeing how much more he can get.

Fair point, but: A: Harbaugh is a Golden Boy at UM, and B: He still sucks. If Archie is angling for more $, then he probably needs to pick up his pace of winning just a tad. 

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2 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Not sure if that will ever happen but sure thing. Seems when Armaan is on the floor the upperclassman just aren’t aggressive and sit back and wait for him to do everything. I hate to say this but I’d be shocked if Rob and Al are back next year...like wow!! Shocked. They honestly rarely look like they are happy and enjoying themselves and they just aren’t at the level we need to win big. Not sure what we expect. Rob a mid 100s recruit and Al almost a 300 ranked recruit...our backcourt is pedestrian at best. Nothing electric nothing special...nothing that you can rely on to win you games. They play good defense...that’s it. That ain’t going to cut it...and why I was so excited to land a Mohammed.

Agree. Phinisee and Durham are great backup guards at this level. If they're both starting, you're an average team, which is what IU has been with them. 

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IU basketball is in a very critical spot.  In short order, schools like Kansas, UNC, Duke, Syracuse, and IU will all be looking for coaches.  

The Duke insiders say that they are taking someone from K’s family.  Syracuse and Hopkins have been tied for a long time.  So, take them out.  But UNC and Kansas are lurking around.  A lot of talk that Kansas is probably going all in for Beard.  Kentucky won’t have Cal forever especially with the disarray they’ve been.  

IU can’t be a weanie here and get outmanuevered by schools that will go all in.  

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35 minutes ago, dgambill said:

And getting beat by Butler...they are way overrated. The Big East is not the old big East. I want my coach to be good coaching at both ends of the floor.

Ok I would love for my team to be overrated....... four years and we can’t sniff the top twenty-five!! I am done and going to enjoy life outside of Indiana Basketball!! Congrats!! Carry on!!

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1 hour ago, Leathernecks said:

Wholeheartedly disagree on the Allen situation.  There was a lot more positive happening with Allen than there has been with Archie.  Allen is also really self-aware and willing to change, and Archie seems extremely stubborn.  Allen also has charisma that Archie (and 99.9% of coaches) can only dream of.  The buy in between the football team and basketball team appears to be night and day different.

Those were all things that made it seem much more likely that Allen was going to turn things around than Archie.  There has been some bad luck with the basketball team since he's been here, but the things a lot of people have issues with are things that are independent of luck on the court.  Struggling recruiting, lack of accountability with himself and with some players, questions about the system he runs, lack of improvement in shooting with most players.

Agree with what you’re saying here but to be fair, Allen has never faced the pressure and expectations of an entire alumni like Archie has. The difference in how each person conveys themselves may be in direct correlation to that. 

We may get on the football board and bitch and moan for a day or two after a loss, but nothing like what even this thread exemplifies. Every football recruiting battle isn’t parsed and there certainly aren’t 100+ page threads about them. Every coaching decision , things like out of bounds plays, aren’t dissected to death. There aren’t 25-30 guys that have either played, coached or both that think they know better.

 I am on the fence with CAM . I really want him to succeed and I do think he has the coaching chops. I do wonder though whether he has the makeup to be able to handle the expectations put on him by this fan base 

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16 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

IU basketball is in a very critical spot.  In short order, schools like Kansas, UNC, Duke, Syracuse, and IU will all be looking for coaches.  

The Duke insiders say that they are taking someone from K’s family.  Syracuse and Hopkins have been tied for a long time.  So, take them out.  But UNC and Kansas are lurking around.  A lot of talk that Kansas is probably going all in for Beard.  Kentucky won’t have Cal forever especially with the disarray they’ve been.  

IU can’t be a weanie here and get outmanuevered by schools that will go all in.  

scared emoji was not an option but I'm inserting it here😱

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39 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I think we are a little premature...a little knee jerk from the back to back Purdue debacles. I’m not saying his seat isn’t enfuego but I’m interested in seeing this play out.

See, I have never been a big fire Archie guy, but any of this talk isn't really knee jerk for me due to Purdue.  I say the eye test of really struggling to beat what are the clear bottom 3 teams in this conference along with losing at home to the #9 and #6 team.  Then just being realistic that we haven't played the best 2 teams yet and we play them twice.  Then we also play at the #4 team.  Upsets are always possible and match-ups do mean something, but our best opportunities to win from here seem like at NW and at Purdue, both which beat us at our place.  When we finish this season under .500 overall (not just in conference), I don't see CAM coming back from that.  I would like to see us shock me and do much better and Archie turn out to be the guy, but that's not what I'd bet on.  

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19 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Agree with what you’re saying here but to be fair, Allen has never faced the pressure and expectations of an entire alumni like Archie has. The difference in how each person conveys themselves may be in direct correlation to that. 

 

True, but then there should be more motivation to get out there.  Be creative, innovative.  Hire coaches who are good at your weekness.  Be the face of Indiana Basketball.  Tell your gigantic staff to do more to book gigs, make hoosierhysteria special, make IU basketball cool.  Instead, IU is getting a rep for boring basketball and environment that doesn't win.  And recruits are taking notice.

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28 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Agree. Phinisee and Durham are great backup guards at this level. If they're both starting, you're an average team, which is what IU has been with them. 

I was saying all offseason Al should be our 6th man. I’d love Archie to tinker with the lineups again. Maybe split up Rob and Al some more and get some more shooting with Leal and Hunter out there with Armaan. 

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8 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

See, I have never been a big fire Archie guy, but any of this talk isn't really knee jerk for me due to Purdue.  I say the eye test of really struggling to beat what are the clear bottom 3 teams in this conference along with losing at home to the #9 and #6 team.  Then just being realistic that we haven't played the best 2 teams yet and we play them twice.  Then we also play at the #4 team.  Upsets are always possible and match-ups do mean something, but our best opportunities to win from here seem like at NW and at Purdue, both which beat us at our place.  When we finish this season under .500 overall (not just in conference), I don't see CAM coming back from that.  I would like to see us shock me and do much better and Archie turn out to be the guy, but that's not what I'd bet on.  

I understand...but nothing is happening right now..might as well see what happens with the rest of the year and start this thread then.

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39 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Oats for sure but Drew is not my cup of tea.  

Watched some of Alabama’s game today. He would certainly be in the mix. 
 

While I’m already posting I just want to go ahead and say again my 100% first choice would be for this to work out with Archie. I have serious doubts that it will but will keep hoping for it to as long as he is here. 

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