It’s time... Fire Archie Miller

[Fiveoutofsix]

2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

But there is no Roy Williams in the "IU family". 

Yes, not the exact won big time at another blue blood.....but, I am convinced there are similar minds, personality and traits out there.  And, Indiana is a different state than NC when it comes to basketball in your DNA.  

Let me take a step back, and say I have hoped Archie would be thr guy.  I can back a former 5'4 sharpshooter.  But, we saw signs with Langford how a stud was underutilized...at that time I said it was an injury.  He has had pros such as Morgan and Green, still couldn't win.  

This year was his best class ever, brought in Indiana kids and can't beat a average Purdue team at home.  Same lack of adjustments at guarding 3point line.  Same lack of sets and offensive creativity.  

And, can't change his personality.  He is not a guy to hold an event at the Union to get the university excited about basketball post pandemic. Yes, this is a small thing that coaches do, especially should be doing when your the highest paid employee at your institution.

So, if we are going to loose, at least get somone that I have a connection to because they bleed cream and crimson.  And, then start winning.

[5fouls]

Rick Barnes is 66 years old.  I like Barnes, and think he is underrated, but being 66 is not a long term hire.  

[5fouls]

My non-Stevens choice would probably be Thad Matta.  

[BGleas]

5 minutes ago, Fiveoutofsix said:

Yes, not the exact won big time at another blue blood.....but, I am convinced there are similar minds, personality and traits out there.  And, Indiana is a different state than NC when it comes to basketball in your DNA.  

Let me take a step back, and say I have hoped Archie would be thr guy.  I can back a former 5'4 sharpshooter.  But, we saw signs with Langford how a stud was underutilized...at that time I said it was an injury.  He has had pros such as Morgan and Green, still couldn't win.  

This year was his best class ever, brought in Indiana kids and can't beat a average Purdue team at home.  Same lack of adjustments at guarding 3point line.  Same lack of sets and offensive creativity.  

And, can't change his personality.  He is not a guy to hold an event at the Union to get the university excited about basketball post pandemic. Yes, this is a small thing that coaches do, especially should be doing when your the highest paid employee at your institution.

So, if we are going to loose, at least get somone that I have a connection to because they bleed cream and crimson.  And, then start winning.

Like who though? Alford is really the only one with any actual high major coaching experience, and his track record while not terrible isn't really the resume I would think IU is looking for, and then there are all of the other reasons. 

I don't really want to hear Michael Lewis, etc., as IU is not a job where you hire someone that has literally never been a head coach before at any level. 

I get the "IU guy" thing, I just don't think there really is a candidate out there. 

[BobSaccamanno]

I agree with you guys that Archie isn’t gone this year.   COVID and concomitant financial issues could play into it, plus an even keeled view is to give him a fifth year.  

What could save him is he keeps his current players including Trayce and Lander, but the critical piece is player development.  You look at this roster and it is full of pieces that are nowhere near fulfilling their potential. Just to name a few:

• The staff can work with TJD and get his off hand and mid range jumper resolved
• The staff convinces Lander that they will do everything in their power to prepare him to start next year.  Work on his understanding of the game, his feet and knowledge on defense, his shot, his knowledge of situational basketball, etc.  They will work with him day and night because he is worth it
• Hunter still misses assignments on D so they are headed to the film room to get him tuned in with his stance, his knowledge, his hustle on block outs, ball handling, etc
• Galloway is going to shoot with Leal constantly 
• And on and on; not many teams have this much meat left on the bone in terms of player potential that isn’t being optimized

It is time to see massive player improvement once and for all.  The stars are aligned for all that to happen and suddenly you come back with a loaded team.  

I have to say, I like Archie’s philosophy but he obviously needs to win games.  The other nagging thing with him, sure his philosophy is sound, but there just isn’t that spark you’d like to see where he shows he’s a master chess player. We could go on and on with him, but he has so far been unwilling or unable to figure out solutions.  The red flags are building: the unforgivable losing 12 of 13 where he was just helpless; the embarrassment on Knight’s day to Purdue with all the IU ex players and the whole fan base alert and  watching; not being able to beat sound teams at all, etc.  It’s way past the point of making excuses because we are into significant sample size territory.  

Nevertheless, I am trying to be positive, but this nagging feeling has been built and just gets reinforced.  Player development, and I don’t mean incremental, is what can save him.  But it’s going to have to meet very large expectations because there is talent that’s untapped.  

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

My non-Stevens choice would probably be Thad Matta.  

Was going to reply to your Rick Barnes comment with Thad. 

Thad would be a grand slam, given the actual realistic options, and assuming he can get his health in order. 

[Fiveoutofsix]

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

Like who though? Alford is really the only one with any actual high major coaching experience, and his track record while not terrible isn't really the resume I would think IU is looking for, and then there are all of the other reasons. 

I don't really want to hear Michael Lewis, etc., as IU is not a job where you hire someone that has literally never been a head coach before at any level. 

I get the "IU guy" thing, I just don't think there really is a candidate out there. 

Alford, I beleive would be able to truly lockdown the state, and assemble a staff that can help with defense.  

But, I am not apposed to a non head coach becoming the next coach, like a Izzo.  Mike Davis is brought up as an example - Mike was brought in during the worse turmoil in program history and he didn't have the organization to succeed (recruitment stories).  

I like the guys who went the NBA route, the Lewis's, Fife's, etc.  They are out there.  And if you can teach, you can succeed.  And if you have a contagious personality you and are one of your own - the state will be energized.

[Muddy River]

On 1/16/2021 at 10:11 AM, dgambill said:

I love coach Knight but I’m not sure I would put a lot of stock into his current mindset. He isn’t exactly at his peak. I think it had more to do with just appeasing a crowd that come to see you speak imo. A throw away line.

That was always my favorite thing about coach Knight; how he always went out of his way to appease people.  

[rico]

16 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Rick Barnes is 66 years old.  I like Barnes, and think he is underrated, but being 66 is not a long term hire.  

Barnes ain't going anywhere...he is home.

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, Fiveoutofsix said:

Alford, I beleive would be able to truly lockdown the state, and assemble a staff that can help with defense.  

But, I am not apposed to a non head coach becoming the next coach, like a Izzo.  Mike Davis is brought up as an example - Mike was brought in during the worse turmoil in program history and he didn't have the organization to succeed (recruitment stories).  

I like the guys who went the NBA route, the Lewis's, Fife's, etc.  They are out there.  And if you can teach, you can succeed.  And if you have a contagious personality you and are one of your own - the state will be energized.

I guess we just disagree on this, which is fine. Alford is pretty underwhelming IMO. 

I don't think you hire someone at IU that has never been a head coach. Izzo is different a bit, because he had been on that MSU staff for awhile and just slid over one seat. 

You could maybe talk me into Keith Smart. Long time NBA assistant, some moderate success as an NBA head coach in very short, mostly interim stints, but a guy that has been around that game for a long time and can maybe sell it to recruits. 

But I really don't think there is a good option out there from the IU tree. 

[Fiveoutofsix]

12 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I agree with you guys that Archie isn’t gone this year.   COVID and concomitant financial issues could play into it, plus an even keeled view is to give him a fifth year.  

What could save him is he keeps his current players including Trayce and Lander, but the critical piece is player development.  You look at this roster and it is full of pieces that are nowhere near fulfilling their potential. Just to name a few:

• The staff can work with TJD and get his off hand and mid range jumper resolved
• The staff convinces Lander that they will do everything in their power to prepare him to start next year.  Work on his understanding of the game, his feet and knowledge on defense, his shot, his knowledge of situational basketball, etc.  They will work with him day and night because he is worth it
• Hunter still misses assignments on D so they are headed to the film room to get him tuned in with his stance, his knowledge, his hustle on block outs, ball handling, etc
• Galloway is going to shoot with Leal constantly 
• And on and on; not many teams have this much meat left on the bone in terms of player potential that isn’t being optimized

It is time to see massive player improvement once and for all.  The stars are aligned for all that to happen and suddenly you come back with a loaded team.  

I have to say, I like Archie’s philosophy but he obviously needs to win games.  The other nagging thing with him, sure his philosophy is sound, but there just isn’t that spark you’d like to see where he shows he’s a master chess player. We could go on and on with him, but he has so far been unwilling or unable to figure out solutions.  The red flags are building: the unforgivable losing 12 of 13 where he was just helpless; the embarrassment on Knight’s day to Purdue with all the IU ex players and the whole fan base alert and  watching; not being able to beat sound teams at all, etc.  It’s way past the point of making excuses because we are into significant sample size territory.  

Nevertheless, I am trying to be positive, but this nagging feeling has been built and just gets reinforced.  Player development, and I don’t mean incremental, is what can save him.  But it’s going to have to meet very large expectations because there is talent that’s untapped.  

Really like your post....let me ask...how does it change? 

Seems to me (I could be wrong) it's the Osterum/Miller show and everyone else is along for the ride.  Hunter seems to be the most active on the bench teaching.

Maybe, it's time to loose the comfort of Tom O and look for a creative offensive minded assistant who can also develop shooting.  Maybe, just throwing out Sunday conversation.

[ATX_sig]

17 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Rick Barnes is 66 years old.  I like Barnes, and think he is underrated, but being 66 is not a long term hire.  

I don't know.  He is a decent coach but over time his teams seem to flair out.  He kind of sucked the life out of Texas program during the last half of his tenure.  With TJ Ford he got to the final 4.  He flamed out with Durant.  When i moved to Austin  season after Durant there seemed to be excitement around the program that went stale with each season's meltdown. 

[Parakeet Jones]

15 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Was going to reply to your Rick Barnes comment with Thad. 

Thad would be a grand slam, given the actual realistic options, and assuming he can get his health in order. 

I hadn’t thought of Matta until I saw his name brought up somewhere last night. I was shocked to learn he is only 53. I guess because of his health I thought he was older.  If needed, he has the potential to be a quality hire. 

[BGleas]

2 minutes ago, Parakeet Jones said:

I hadn’t thought of Matta until I saw his name brought up somewhere last night. I was shocked to learn he is only 53. I guess because of his health I thought he was older.  If needed, he has the potential to be a quality hire. 

I thought he was older too. For real, if in a couple years IU is making a change, and understanding the current high level guys (Wright, Bennett, Stevens, etc) aren't coming, Matta really is a homerun hire. 

[IUCrazy2]

24 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Like who though? Alford is really the only one with any actual high major coaching experience, and his track record while not terrible isn't really the resume I would think IU is looking for, and then there are all of the other reasons. 

I don't really want to hear Michael Lewis, etc., as IU is not a job where you hire someone that has literally never been a head coach before at any level. 

I get the "IU guy" thing, I just don't think there really is a candidate out there. 

Scott Dolson was a student manager from 1984 to 1988.  There are 2 candidates out there that he attended IU with.

I know I am not getting much traction here but I really think if this job opens up that "The Shot" and "The Golden Boy" are potentially going to get a look.  It was clear from the Dakich show that former players already contact Dolson.  A former player is on the BoT.  After 20 years of saying they don't want an IU guy, I could finally see some of those voices take over.  

[5fouls]

Matta is a proven winner in the Big Ten.  That is something that no other name that has been thrown out has.  

[5fouls]

5 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Scott Dolson was a student manager from 1984 to 1988.  There are 2 candidates out there that he attended IU with.

I know I am not getting much traction here but I really think if this job opens up that "The Shot" and "The Golden Boy" are potentially going to get a look.  It was clear from the Dakich show that former players already contact Dolson.  A former player is on the BoT.  After 20 years of saying they don't want an IU guy, I could finally see some of those voices take over.  

And, if Smart and Alford get prioritized over Stevens (I know, I know), or even a proven winner like Matta, then that is a royal screw-up.  Those are guys you look at if you can't get your home run hire.  

And, to be fair to Smart and Alford, they need to understand that going in.

[BGleas]

10 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

And, if Smart and Alford get prioritized over Stevens (I know, I know), or even a proven winner like Matta, then that is a royal screw-up.  Those are guys you look at if you can't get your home run hire.  

And, to be fair to Smart and Alford, they need to understand that going in.

Agree here too. If Stevens, Bennett, Wright, etc., and even a guy like Matta say no, then maybe you get to Alford or Smart before you go to the young, mid-major coach dejour. But, you don't start with them. 

You're really talking me into Matta. It might have be you, but someone shared a recent quote from him about how nice life is not coaching, but geez prying him out of retirement would be huge. 

He's won multiple Big Ten regular season titles, multiple conference tournament titles, been to multiple Final Fours and elite 8's. There isn't a guy available with that type of resume. 

[NCHoosier32]

32 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I agree with you guys that Archie isn’t gone this year.   COVID and concomitant financial issues could play into it, plus an even keeled view is to give him a fifth year.  

What could save him is he keeps his current players including Trayce and Lander, but the critical piece is player development.  You look at this roster and it is full of pieces that are nowhere near fulfilling their potential. Just to name a few:

• The staff can work with TJD and get his off hand and mid range jumper resolved
• The staff convinces Lander that they will do everything in their power to prepare him to start next year.  Work on his understanding of the game, his feet and knowledge on defense, his shot, his knowledge of situational basketball, etc.  They will work with him day and night because he is worth it
• Hunter still misses assignments on D so they are headed to the film room to get him tuned in with his stance, his knowledge, his hustle on block outs, ball handling, etc
• Galloway is going to shoot with Leal constantly 
• And on and on; not many teams have this much meat left on the bone in terms of player potential that isn’t being optimized

It is time to see massive player improvement once and for all.  The stars are aligned for all that to happen and suddenly you come back with a loaded team.  

I have to say, I like Archie’s philosophy but he obviously needs to win games.  The other nagging thing with him, sure his philosophy is sound, but there just isn’t that spark you’d like to see where he shows he’s a master chess player. We could go on and on with him, but he has so far been unwilling or unable to figure out solutions.  The red flags are building: the unforgivable losing 12 of 13 where he was just helpless; the embarrassment on Knight’s day to Purdue with all the IU ex players and the whole fan base alert and  watching; not being able to beat sound teams at all, etc.  It’s way past the point of making excuses because we are into significant sample size territory.  

Nevertheless, I am trying to be positive, but this nagging feeling has been built and just gets reinforced.  Player development, and I don’t mean incremental, is what can save him.  But it’s going to have to meet very large expectations because there is talent that’s untapped.  

I mean, I agree that it is very unlikely he is gone after this year.  I just think it is very likely he is gone after next.  To put a positive spin on, let's say we beat NW and Purdue on the road...let's say we beat Rutgers once.  Let's say we beat MSU once.  Then let's say either MN or Illinois at our place.  That's 8-12 in conference and 13-14 going into the B1G tourney.  If we win a couple rounds and at least finish .500... THEN... if TJD stays, Stewart is as good as most people on here seem to think he will be, Brunk comes back, Lander makes a huge leap, and all of the other guys show at least some progress, I could see us being very solid next year and THEN CAM can survive.  Now... I'll take guesses on how many of those things I personally think are gonna happen?  

[ATX_sig]

15 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Like who though? Alford is really the only one with any actual high major coaching experience, and his track record while not terrible isn't really the resume I would think IU is looking for, and then there are all of the other reasons. 

I don't really want to hear Michael Lewis, etc., as IU is not a job where you hire someone that has literally never been a head coach before at any level. 

I get the "IU guy" thing, I just don't think there really is a candidate out there. 

No matter who is a candidate there will be some cons except for maybe Stevens or Beard.  I don't necessarily favor an IU guy over a non-IU but can see the appeal.  Maybe none of the following are candidates but they all seem capable, IMO.

I think some of the IU guys that have a lot of NBA experience would be fine.  NBA backgrounds seems to attract recruits.   I finbd it hard to believe that guys like Woodson, Wittman, Smart can't coach at the college level if they want the opportunity.   I'll even add Isiah to the list just stir up a bunch of negative comments. 

I wouldn't mind Alford.  I think everyone deserves to learn from mistakes.  He has generally done well not great wherever he goes. Sometimes landing in the right spot is what it takes.  

I'm sticking with a list of 3. Beard, Drew, Matta.  After that, I might just prefer to stick with Archie and let it play out.    If the team finsihes .500 in the conference they probably make the tourney.  If TJD stays next year and this seasons another year, it seems you may be letting him go for doing the job you hired him to do even if it was slow and not pretty getting there.  

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, ATX_sig said:

No matter who is a candidate there will be some cons except for maybe Stevens or Beard.  I don't necessarily favor an IU guy over a non-IU but can see the appeal.  Maybe none of the following are candidates but they all seem capable, IMO.

I think some of the IU guys that have a lot of NBA experience would be fine.  NBA backgrounds seems to attract recruits.   I finbd it hard to believe that guys like Woodson, Wittman, Smart can't coach at the college level if they want the opportunity.   I'll even add Isiah to the list just stir up a bunch of negative comments. 

I wouldn't mind Alford.  I think everyone deserves to learn from mistakes.  He has generally done well not great wherever he goes. Sometimes landing in the right spot is what it takes.  

I'm sticking with a list of 3. Beard, Drew, Matta.  After that, I might just prefer to stick with Archie and let it play out.    If the team finsihes .500 in the conference they probably make the tourney.  If TJD stays next year and this seasons another year, it seems you may be letting him go for doing the job you hired him to do even if it was slow and not pretty getting there.  

Completely agree with your last paragraph. Archie isn't going anywhere until at least after next season. If we're missing on the top tier guys (Beard, Matta, guys like that), then I'd just assume stick with Archie and let him continue the slow and steady build. And as I've said, my preference is Archie gets it going. 

[Leathernecks]

4 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

I mean, I agree that it is very unlikely he is gone after this year.  I just think it is very likely he is gone after next.  To put a positive spin on, let's say we beat NW and Purdue on the road...let's say we beat Rutgers once.  Let's say we beat MSU once.  Then let's say either MN or Illinois at our place.  That's 8-12 in conference and 13-14 going into the B1G tourney.  If we win a couple rounds and at least finish .500... THEN... if TJD stays, Stewart is as good as most people on here seem to think he will be, Brunk comes back, Lander makes a huge leap, and all of the other guys show at least some progress, I could see us being very solid next year and THEN CAM can survive.  Now... I'll take guesses on how many of those things I personally think are gonna happen?  

Part of the issue is that by the end of next year, it has to either be fire or extend.  If not, it will be almost impossible to recruit with only 2 years left on his contract and his seat hot.

A .500 finish this season, and his seat is probably scorching going into next year.  At that point, he'd need a great season to justify an extension.  He's gone from needing to overachieve to keep fan support to needing to overachieve to keep his job.  Like you said, how many of those good things do we realistically think will happen.

[DWB]

You guys have missed a great candidate which has been under your nose for the whole time. IU connection, seems to know a little about the game, outgoing personality, disciplined. What else could you ask for ?

Dan Dakich

(maybe I should've posted this in the comic relief thread in CC corner) 

[13th&Jackson]

31 minutes ago, Parakeet Jones said:

I hadn’t thought of Matta until I saw his name brought up somewhere last night. I was shocked to learn he is only 53. I guess because of his health I thought he was older.  If needed, he has the potential to be a quality hire. 

I see zero chance of that happening.

"Thad Matta over down the road at Ohio State, he's a dear friend," Miller told the gathered press in Bloomington. "He took me in, and he changed my perception of what coaching is all about. It's about our players, and he's the very, very best at convincing you how to invest your time in them rather than anything else because if they're enjoying themselves and their experience is something that is going well, then you're going to get great, great productivity back."

Both Matta and the Millers have discussed their relationship in the past and that all three remain close. Archie's unprompted discussion of Matta during his introductory press conference is just another indication of the impact the Buckeye head coach has had on him during their time together and beyond.

[Leathernecks]

As far as Archie's buyout, it is offset by any earnings through his contract.  If he goes and gets a job making $2 million for 3 years remaining on his contract, we'd really only owe him $4 million.  I remember Arkansas was trying to get out of paying Bielema's buyout because had a clause that he had to actively look for comparable employment or he wouldn't get paid.  I'm assuming that's pretty common in these contracts?  I don't think he'll get fired this offseason, but I don't think the buyout is as big of a deal as people make it out to be.