It’s time... Fire Archie Miller

[IU878176]

19 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Morgan was not an NBA player when Crean left but became one later.  Crean's last team lost in the first round of the NIT and lost 3 guys too professional basketball.

If you use that criteria Holtman took over a program that did not make the post season the prior year, went to the NIT the year before that and had NCAA sanctions hanging over their head. In spite of that the narrative from some, not saying you, was that he inherited a much better situation. 

[IU878176]

19 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

At the end of the day Archie's results will be the deciding factor in his fate, but in many ways Crean left a bigger mess than he found. 

 

Crean inherited three things:

1) Returning frontcourt: walk-on Kyle Taber

2) Returning backcourt: walk-on Brett Finklemeier

3) NCAA sanctions

Outside of a death penalty situation Crean inherited pretty much the worst P5 situation you can imagine. From that, although he is a mediocre coach, he had us in the sweet sixteen in year 4. There is no way (zero) Archie inherited a worse situation.

On a side note.....Archie’s best finish in the Big Ten, so far, was his first year when he had 100%  “Creanians” on the roster. 
Think about that.

 

[Billingsley99]

19 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Well actually the best player in that class MO Creek did have career threatening injuries

You can't include that because it doesn't fit the narrative.  There is no comparison to what each inherited and no comparison to where each were in year 4.

[IUFLA]

8 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

On a side note.....Archie’s best finish in the Big Ten, so far, was his first year when he had 100%  “Creanians” on the roster. 
Think about that.

To be fair, the B1G top to bottom wasn't nearly as good CAM's first year as it is now.

[IU878176]

3 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

To be fair, the B1G top to bottom wasn't nearly as good CAM's first year as it is now.

I knew that would come up.

Maybe CAM could have improved the team over the next few years to the degree other Big Ten teams have improved.

[IUFLA]

3 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

I knew that would come up.

Maybe CAM could have improved the team over the next few years like most of the Big Ten has.

I think there are a lot of reasons we seem to be a .500 team over the past 4 years...I've went over them before, and I really don't feel like doing it again.

Archie will have the rest of this year and next to determine his fate. Of that, I'm confident. Let's just let it play out and see where we are in February 2022...

[bluegrassIU]

2 hours ago, Fiveoutofsix said:

.....

 

And, Justin Smith who happens to be doing well now and now considered a leader...that is not leaving a mess.....

.

Really? 

[IU878176]

5 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I think there are a lot of reasons we seem to be a .500 team over the past 4 years...I've went over them before, and I really don't feel like doing it again.

I don’t necessarily disagree with that but at some point “the record is the record”. 

[IUFLA]

Just now, IU878176 said:

I don’t necessarily disagree with that but at some point “the record is the record”. 

I understand that. That's why I'm ok with waiting to see what happens.

If after next year, were still treading water, I'd be behind a change.

My own personal thoughts though, are that we'll be a better team next year, particularly if Trayce stays (which he should)...

[Fiveoutofsix]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

I wouldn't say Smith is doing any better this year than he ever did at IU  He is averaging 11 pts, 49% overall and 21% from 3

We could use 11 pts a game, leadership and his defense.  We really could.  Maybe different story if Joey Brunk was healthy, but he could help.

I am not saying he is an AA, but solid player.

[KoB2011]

8 hours ago, Hoosier82 said:

Quite literally the most ignorant comment ever to grace this board (or any other message forum, ever, on any topic)...

. 

Such great commentary you have provided. Thanks for blessing us all with your insight. 

In all seriousness, Crean got to take over a demolished house and build what he wanted. He built it, then left it in pretty bad shape and Archie was tasked with repairing it. Not starting from scratch like Crean did; and then he had his hands tied and was told he couldn't demo certain parts of the house he wanted to. 

I think a lot of people would view that as the tougher job if they were the ones who had to take it over themselves. 

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

They took a big chunk of AD money from the BTN and built a passion project for the President.  An International Studies school in Indiana is a waste of flipping money.  Had they tried  bio-engineering school that could partner with IU Health and Lilly then that would be one thing (and it would compete with Purdue to bring high level students to the school) but instead it was spent on fluff.  That building cost $53 million and half came from BTN money.  $26.5 million is a hell of a down payment on coaches salaries.  And it was wasted on a school that is going to be doubtful to pull much more interest for IU.  IU revenue from BTN went from $13.9 million in 2007 to $40 million in 2017 (h.t. our own TDH https://www.thedailyhoosier.com/the-fox-guarding-the-iu-athletics-henhouse/).

Yeah the school spent money, but it was just going through the motions.  "Look how much we pay Miller" is just what they want you to see.  It helps to draw attention away from other areas where we do not compete.  And the fact we only had one P5 coach contact us last time we had an opening is not a fans thing IMO, it is word getting out that our administration is going to set a fake expectation on you that they don't plan to support.  And that is what leads to the fan rage...and the coach is left holding the bill.

Keep Miller until that tool McRobbie finally leaves and paybe get old Pat to sit down and STFU (or just oust him from the BoT) and then let's see who we can get.  In my mind those 2 are 1A and 1B who need to hit the bricks.

This x 1000. 

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, IU878176 said:

Crean inherited three things:

1) Returning frontcourt: walk-on Kyle Taber

2) Returning backcourt: walk-on Brett Finklemeier

3) NCAA sanctions

Outside of a death penalty situation Crean inherited pretty much the worst P5 situation you can imagine. From that, although he is a mediocre coach, he had us in the sweet sixteen in year 4. There is no way (zero) Archie inherited a worse situation.

On a side note.....Archie’s best finish in the Big Ten, so far, was his first year when he had 100%  “Creanians” on the roster. 
Think about that.

 

Well since I think anyone with a brain can admit that Archie has had vastly better results to this point in their tenure, I think we should all be smart enough to understand the expectations each inherited too. If you actually took what I said to mean that the roster Crean inherited was worse than the one Archie inherited then you didn't come close to understanding my point. 

[IU878176]

21 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Well since I think anyone with a brain can admit that Archie has had vastly better results to this point in their tenure, I think we should all be smart enough to understand the expectations each inherited too. If you actually took what I said to mean that the roster Crean inherited was worse than the one Archie inherited then you didn't come close to understanding my point. 

I’m not sure how else I should have taken the comment that Crean “left a bigger mess than he inherited”.

[KoB2011]

1 minute ago, IU878176 said:

I’m not sure how else I should have taken the comment that Crean “left a bigger mess than he inherited”.

Crean inherited an empty lot and was told build a house.

Archie inherited a run down house and was told to fix it. Then when Archie tried to rip some problem areas out and replace them, he was told he couldn't. 

There is reasonable conversation to be had on if it is better to inherit a mess or a clean slate but it would require both sides admitting that Crean didn't start with a mess, he started with nothing at all. He got to put in a new foundation and frame a new house, not having to try to repair cracked foundation and a rotting frame. 

[BGleas]

2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Crean inherited an empty lot and was told build a house.

Archie inherited a run down house and was told to fix it. Then when Archie tried to rip some problem areas out and replace them, he was told he couldn't. 

There is reasonable conversation to be had on if it is better to inherit a mess or a clean slate but it would require both sides admitting that Crean didn't start with a mess, he started with nothing at all. He got to put in a new foundation and frame a new house, not having to try to repair cracked foundation and a rotting frame. 

Agree with your point, which carries a lot of context but makes a lot of sense. You're not saying Archie started with less, you're saying he arguably started with a worse problem. While Crean had nothing, everyone knew he had nothing and he could rebuild it 100% in his own mold, and that also carried a certain amount of patience with it. 

Archie took over a team with more talent clearly, but it still wasn't great and he didn't have free reign to do what he wanted with. He had to retool instead of build, and when you inherit a team that is a bit of a mess you also inherit the inter-personal issues between those people involved. 

I know in my professional career that I have built teams from scratch and inherited teams and in my experience building teams is much easier. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but I'd much rather build a team. 

[GaloisGroupe]

19 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Agree with your point, which carries a lot of context but makes a lot of sense. You're not saying Archie started with less, you're saying he arguably started with a worse problem. While Crean had nothing, everyone knew he had nothing and he could rebuild it 100% in his own mold, and that also carried a certain amount of patience with it. 

Archie took over a team with more talent clearly, but it still wasn't great and he didn't have free reign to do what he wanted with. He had to retool instead of build, and when you inherit a team that is a bit of a mess you also inherit the inter-personal issues between those people involved. 

I know in my professional career that I have built teams from scratch and inherited teams and in my experience building teams is much easier. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but I'd much rather build a team. 

+1 it is always easier to build something from the foundations than to be forced to build on bad foundations.

[BGleas]

Thinking more about Archie and the state of the program. Clearly I'm not happy with where things are. To be an at best middle-of-the-pack team in year 4 is not where we all hoped things would be. I thought this turnaround would happen quicker and I've said this numerous times that I'm disappointed with the lack of identity and lack of toughness since Archie got here. 

I thought those things would be givens with Archie. 

With all of that said, there has been improvement. The team has gotten incrementally better at most facets every year, even if it's not hugely reflected in the overall record yet. I do really, really like our freshmen and sophomores. I think there are the pieces to build around there and with some luck (which guys like Holtman and Underwood have gotten) next year could be a really good year. 

Where is this leading? If we continue to stumble down the stretch and either limp into the tournament or miss it entirely, then I probably still wouldn't be calling for a change but would support it if it happened. But, I also don't think IU should make a change unless they're going to change how they find a new coach. 

If IU is just going to fire Archie and offer $3.4M to the next up and comer, then I'd rather just stick with Archie and let him continue to build. I don't know why it's been such a struggle for Archie, but from what I can tell he's clearly a good, smart coach. For some reason the pieces just haven't come together. 

So, if IU does make a change in the next year then what I want to see is a change in how they operate. We don't need the next mid-major hope. IU needs to pony up and go offer $5M-$7M to get a proven ready-to-win coach. I don't know who that is (Stevens is not coming), but someone with a proven Power 5 track record. Identify who your top 1-2 guys are and refuse to not get them. Do what you have to do to get them. Even if it's $5M to lure Thad Matta out of retirement or $7M to force Chris Beards hand. 

It's gotta be an all-in, get your guy no matter what scenario. Otherwise, let's keep Archie and let him finish what he's started. I still think he can do it, and know he can coach. 

[KoB2011]

21 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Agree with your point, which carries a lot of context but makes a lot of sense. You're not saying Archie started with less, you're saying he arguably started with a worse problem. While Crean had nothing, everyone knew he had nothing and he could rebuild it 100% in his own mold, and that also carried a certain amount of patience with it. 

Archie took over a team with more talent clearly, but it still wasn't great and he didn't have free reign to do what he wanted with. He had to retool instead of build, and when you inherit a team that is a bit of a mess you also inherit the inter-personal issues between those people involved. 

I know in my professional career that I have built teams from scratch and inherited teams and in my experience building teams is much easier. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but I'd much rather build a team. 

Exactly. The mess is the problem each inherited. 

[BobSaccamanno]

10 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Thinking more about Archie and the state of the program. Clearly I'm not happy with where things are. To be an at best middle-of-the-pack team in year 4 is not where we all hoped things would be. I thought this turnaround would happen quicker and I've said this numerous times that I'm disappointed with the lack of identity and lack of toughness since Archie got here. 

I thought those things would be givens with Archie. 

With all of that said, there has been improvement. The team has gotten incrementally better at most facets every year, even if it's not hugely reflected in the overall record yet. I do really, really like our freshmen and sophomores. I think there are the pieces to build around there and with some luck (which guys like Holtman and Underwood have gotten) next year could be a really good year. 

Where is this leading? If we continue to stumble down the stretch and either limp into the tournament or miss it entirely, then I probably still wouldn't be calling for a change but would support it if it happened. But, I also don't think IU should make a change unless they're going to change how they find a new coach. 

If IU is just going to fire Archie and offer $3.4M to the next up and comer, then I'd rather just stick with Archie and let him continue to build. I don't know why it's been such a struggle for Archie, but from what I can tell he's clearly a good, smart coach. For some reason the pieces just haven't come together. 

So, if IU does make a change in the next year then what I want to see is a change in how they operate. We don't need the next mid-major hope. IU needs to pony up and go offer $5M-$7M to get a proven ready-to-win coach. I don't know who that is (Stevens is not coming), but someone with a proven Power 5 track record. Identify who your top 1-2 guys are and refuse to not get them. Do what you have to do to get them. Even if it's $5M to lure Thad Matta out of retirement or $7M to force Chris Beards hand. 

It's gotta be an all-in, get your guy no matter what scenario. Otherwise, let's keep Archie and let him finish what he's started. I still think he can do it, and know he can coach. 

You and I are simpatico today. Perfectly aligned, although I feel like we overlap at least 80% of the time anyway.  Those are the feelings I’ve tried to convey for a long time but you articulated them better.   Great post. 

[KoB2011]

4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Thinking more about Archie and the state of the program. Clearly I'm not happy with where things are. To be an at best middle-of-the-pack team in year 4 is not where we all hoped things would be. I thought this turnaround would happen quicker and I've said this numerous times that I'm disappointed with the lack of identity and lack of toughness since Archie got here. 

I thought those things would be givens with Archie. 

With all of that said, there has been improvement. The team has gotten incrementally better at most facets every year, even if it's not hugely reflected in the overall record yet. I do really, really like our freshmen and sophomores. I think there are the pieces to build around there and with some luck (which guys like Holtman and Underwood have gotten) next year could be a really good year. 

Where is this leading? If we continue to stumble down the stretch and either limp into the tournament or miss it entirely, then I probably still wouldn't be calling for a change but would support it if it happened. But, I also don't think IU should make a change unless they're going to change how they find a new coach. 

If IU is just going to fire Archie and offer $3.4M to the next up and comer, then I'd rather just stick with Archie and let him continue to build. I don't know why it's been such a struggle for Archie, but from what I can tell he's clearly a good, smart coach. For some reason the pieces just haven't come together. 

So, if IU does make a change in the next year then what I want to see is a change in how they operate. We don't need the next mid-major hope. IU needs to pony up and go offer $5M-$7M to get a proven ready-to-win coach. I don't know who that is (Stevens is not coming), but someone with a proven Power 5 track record. Identify who your top 1-2 guys are and refuse to not get them. Do what you have to do to get them. Even if it's $5M to lure Thad Matta our of retirement or $7M to force Chris Beards hand. 

It's gotta be an all-in, get your guy no matter what scenario. Otherwise, let's keep Archie and let him finish what he's started. I still think he can do it, and know he can coach. 

This is where I'm at. If things dictate we need a change, fine, but it needs to be a sure thing. If you can't get your sure thing, you can wait one more year for Nate Oats or someone of that caliber. 

[BGleas]

7 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

This is where I'm at. If things dictate we need a change, fine, but it needs to be a sure thing. If you can't get your sure thing, you can wait one more year for Nate Oats or someone of that caliber. 

Exactly, or even wait to see if Archie gets it going, which I think can certainly still happen. 

[13th&Jackson]

I don’t have any info, so this is all speculation. Due to the pressure Dolson is supposedly getting, I could see him telling Archie that he’s making a change next season, barring a great season. If Archie can find another job after this season, IU would waive the buyout. 
 

IU would then overpay Alford, thinking it would be a big splash with the fan base and shut up the “IU guy” crowd. I think they will then be shocked by the golf clap response 

[mchenry34]

Expansion of television markets and the tournament and the incredible number of good players that are available makes it possible to win at a lot more schools than in years past. That means that people don't have to move "up" for the opportunity to win. There's also a lot more money available at even the nominally committed schools than there used to be. Leaving schools from one Power 5 school to another is going to get more and more rare. 

So we have to ask ourselves why someone would want to move "up" to Indiana:
- It's their alma mater
- more money
- natural recruiting base that could potentially keep them closer to home for visits
- able to pay more money for better assistants to handle recruiting and scouting
- love the spotlight and intensity of a challenge like coaching at IU
- Fanbase? the intensity of our fanbase has been a blessing and a curse...a blessing for places like UK mostly, but in a different era, with twitter and unprecedented access to players and coaches, that may begin to turn against schools more and more

that's about all I can think of. It's just not the sure fire thing that it was twenty years ago. I would say that most of that has to do with the way that the landscape of college basketball has changed rather than it just being an IU problem...In fact, it used to seem to people that coaching at a football school was an insult, now people love it. It is cover for their down years, it is built-in activity for fall recruiting visits, it's an incredible amount of money to work with...

IU has messed up its fair share of hires though...they should have had Matta who would have won national championships at IU I think. They also could have had Beilein, but I am not sure we would have been as patient with his early results as Michigan was...The schools that have made really great hires are far fewer than it seems....looking at the coaches in the Big Ten, even though there are some really good ones, getting them in position was often a matter of luck or them being an alumni. Izzo was a long time assistant, Howard and alum, Painter an alum and assistant, Gard an assistant...Holtmann was honestly a windfall. OSU wanted Archie and then Mcdermott, but that was when the FBI stuff was coming out.

So what do we have to go on? 

I want Archie to succeed, but yesterday was worse than just getting beat. Four years in we put a team on the floor that didn't set a decent screen all day, missed foul shots and layups that would have changed the entire texture of the game, turned the ball over in childish ways, was picked apart by the simplest offensive actions (Tired of hearing how genius Holtmann is for using ball screens against TJD and posting Young against Hunter...both are obvious things to do) and couldn't finish off stops by rebounding...if we aren't good in these areas now, when are we going to be?

That said, I think that you have to give Archie at least one more year, and I could see it coming together for him then and him never looking back for a twenty year career after that...

but if it doesn't work after next year, at that point you have to have found a way to have a well vetted short list of people you have real knowledge about. You have KNOW they can really run a practice, you have KNOW they can coach in a game, you have KNOW they can handle the media, you have to KNOW they can develop players...there can't be any guessing to it...

Then you have to go with an offer that turns heads and gets the attention of people who might otherwise be content where they are. 

The list isn't all that obvious though, maybe Nate Oats, maybe Eric Musselman, maybe Scott Drew...and I think we will have to face the fact that Alford will be high on that list (could work if you could convince him to put a staff together of guys like Michael Lewis, etc...)

 

[IUFLA]

21 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

I don’t have any info, so this is all speculation. Due to the pressure Dolson is supposedly getting, I could see him telling Archie that he’s making a change next season, barring a great season. If Archie can find another job after this season, IU would waive the buyout. 
 

IU would then overpay Alford, thinking it would be a big splash with the fan base and shut up the “IU guy” crowd. I think they will then be shocked by the golf clap response 

That's a nightmare scenario as far as I'm concerned...