It’s time... Fire Archie Miller

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, KoB2011 said:

You have spent your day on the internet complaint and trying to convince people to write an email to Dolson to get Archie fired. Have you considered taking your own advice?

I did include myself in that post and said I try but don't succeed.  I think we as fans are just a strange group of people.  If you look at things from outside people they would think we are crazy.  Probably think why do we get do upset over a sport result that we have no control over.  People wonder why people gets upset just because your team loses a game and don't have anything to do with playing or coaching the game.

[BADGERVOL]

1 hour ago, FW_Hoosier said:

And this sums up perfectly how the expectations have changed over the last four seasons.  Crean got fired because he was only competing for conference championships every couple of years.  Now we’d be thrilled if we were just in the top half of the conference again.

The bar has been up and down since even Knights last several years. It seems we go thru stretches we can’t remember what the bar even should be. We are a dysfunctional mess of a program and fanbase now. We’ve developed a damn nervous twitch. 🥴

[Sea Turtle]

4 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

Regardless of NCAA tourney. He’s never finished above .500 in conference and never been top 5 in conference. And is losing his best player.  And who knows maybe we lose Race to transfer.  Guys gotta have his degree after this year 

And Indiana is paying him top ten money for these results. What a bunch of bozos.

[Sea Turtle]

5 hours ago, IU Scott said:

I am not talking in one year but every time there was a change at UNC they tried Williams but he turned them down.  The only reason he left was that Dean finally asked him to.  Also if Williams was not an Alumni and former assistant coach he would still be at UNC.  So why wasn't UK ever able to get Billy Donnovan because nobody can keep turning teams down according to you.  Some think the only thing that matters is money but more and more it is about fit and happiness.  That is why Brad Stevens won't come back to the college game and why Mark Few is still at Gonzaga.

UK probably isn't a very good example to use. They hired John Calipari away from Memphis after he took them to the title game. They hired Rick Pitino away from the freaking New York Knicks. 

Unlike Indiana, they don't mess around when it comes to their basketball program. They get who they want far more often than they don't. Money is no object and they could give a rats behind about what people think of them. 

[AshtonHershey]

11 hours ago, 13th&Jackson said:

And one step closer to Coach Alford 🤮

I hope not. He is a Hoosier legend, but that doesn't mean he would be a consistent winner. Alford had his shot at UCLA and couldn't make it work at an elite level.

[IUFLA]

15 hours ago, IU Scott said:

I am not talking in one year but every time there was a change at UNC they tried Williams but he turned them down.  The only reason he left was that Dean finally asked him to.  Also if Williams was not an Alumni and former assistant coach he would still be at UNC. 

 

15 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Uh, Williams IS still at UNC.

And he didn't get offered the job after Smith retired. He's said many times if Gutheridge hadn't been offered the job he wasn't going to take it.

 

15 hours ago, IU Scott said:

I know he turned them down twice or what people say on TV is wrong

 

 

15 hours ago, IUFLA said:

He was never offered the job when Smith retired. Gutheridge was named coach almost immediately.

As I said, Roy said many times he wouldn't have taken it, even if offered because Gutheridge deserved it.

He DID turn them down when Doherty was hired...

These are your statements, @IU Scott...

And you're wrong. When Smith retired Gutheridge was immediately named as his successor.

In the other thread you posted this (sorry, don't know how to quote posts from different threads)

"I didn't say after Dean retired. He was offered after Guthridge retired.  then after Daugherty was fired he turned them down but finally changed his mind"

"He  turned them down and then they hired Daugherty and then Dean again after firing Daugherty went to him and at first turned it down.  He finally said yes after Dean kept after him.  I still say that if he wasn't a former alumni and assistant he would have never went there."

Now you're trying to backpedal and act like you meant before they hired "Daugherty" (by the way, it's was Matt Doherty that they hired. Brad Daugherty played for UNC in the mid 80s...tip: if you're going to argue a point, get the names right)

I'm not sure why you posted the two links in the other thread, as both are after the Gutheridge resignation...

[BDB]

10 hours ago, Leathernecks said:

I wonder if there are any "non-IU" IU guys out there who could be an option.  Someone like Tom Allen who grew up cheering for IU, but didn't actually go to IU.  I know that would probably be a long shot and really tough to know, just wonder if there could be an "IU guy" out there that people are missing.

Thad Matta.

[IUCrazy2]

11 hours ago, Leathernecks said:

I wonder if there are any "non-IU" IU guys out there who could be an option.  Someone like Tom Allen who grew up cheering for IU, but didn't actually go to IU.  I know that would probably be a long shot and really tough to know, just wonder if there could be an "IU guy" out there that people are missing.

Nobody that jumps out at the D1 level.  I mean Travis Steele is coaching Xavier and is from Danville and I believe was on Sampson's staff (which would be a demerit) but his record at Xavier is pedestrian too.

[BGleas]

This isn't a post about wanting Crean back or a post saying we shouldn't have fired him, it's not a support of Crean post.

With that said, I miss the passion, energy and confidence of his good teams. Take a look at the clip below, that team played with energy, emotion and passion. You could never question the energy and effort of guys like Yogi Ferrell, Troy Williams and Thomas Bryant. They weren't perfect and they had their flaws during their careers, and consistency took time to develop, but they were exciting and played hard and there was excitement. 

You can never question the energy and passion of guys like Cody Zeller, Victor Oladipo or Will Sheehey. 

I miss that. It's not about system or style. Winning, energy and passion are what it is about. Crean's guys had their flaws too, but I haven't seen a single player in the last four years play with the energy, passion and confidence that the guys mentioned above played with. 

I also miss having that kind of talent. A team with Zeller, Oladipo, Watford, Hulls and Sheehey, a team with Yogi, Bryant, Williams and OG, etc., etc. 

But, I just miss watching teams that had some excitement, energy and passion. 

 

[Brass Cannon]

16 minutes ago, BGleas said:

This isn't a post about wanting Crean back or a post saying we shouldn't have fired him, it's not a support of Crean post.

With that said, I miss the passion, energy and confidence of his good teams. Take a look at the clip below, that team played with energy, emotion and passion. You could never question the energy and effort of guys like Yogi Ferrell, Troy Williams and Thomas Bryant. They weren't perfect and they had their flaws during their careers, and consistency took time to develop, but they were exciting and played hard and there was excitement. 

You can never question the energy and passion of guys like Cody Zeller, Victor Oladipo or Will Sheehey. 

I miss that. It's not about system or style. Winning, energy and passion are what it is about. Crean's guys had their flaws too, but I haven't seen a single player in the last four years play with the energy, passion and confidence that the guys mentioned above played with. 

I also miss having that kind of talent. A team with Zeller, Oladipo, Watford, Hulls and Sheehey, a team with Yogi, Bryant, Williams and OG, etc., etc. 

But, I just miss watching teams that had some excitement, energy and passion. 

 

I used to give Crean a lot of crap about his whole philosophy to just play faster.  And god every time I see Phinisee walk the ball up the court I long for that.  I also miss beating Purdue on occasion 

[Seeking6]

1 minute ago, Brass Cannon said:

I used to give Crean a lot of crap about his whole philosophy to just play faster.  And god every time I see Phinisee walk the ball up the court I long for that.  I also miss beating Purdue on occasion 

The other guy on the call yesterday made me laugh. I think it was 72-64 with a little over 90 seconds to go and we were walking the ball up the court and going into our offense.....he was like ummm you have to get moving. 

[IUCrazy2]

I woke up this morning and I think I am fully on the "its over" train now.  I have had a foot heavily in that direction but I think this is done.  Based on how this year is likely to end, the stuff going on with social media between players/families/fans/famous alumni...I just think this thing is broken and there is not the ability or the time for Miller to repair it.

With the liberal transfer rules at the end of the year, now is the time to cut the cord.  It would allow a new guy to quickly fill roster holes and it allows current players who want a change of scenery the ability to do that by staying at IU or leaving if that is what they need.  But it allows those transitions to go without them having to sit.

Dolson just need to pull the plug. 

[tdhoosier]

11 hours ago, Maedhros said:

McKinley Wright started his career four years ago. I've seen no evidence that Archie was prohibited from bringing Wright with him, only conjecture from those fans seeking external factors to explain why Archie hasn't met expectations. But even granting the premise, so what? In the time that Wright has become a senior, Archie is still without a reliable point guard. Sucks that we were prevented from bringing in a recruit that would go on to become a star, if that's indeed what happened. Now what about every miss that's happened since? Regardless of the reason why Wright didn't come to Indiana, Archie has had the opportunity and the responsibility to rectify the situation. A miss four years ago, even one he couldn't control, is no longer an extenuating factor.

I do have to wonder if the McKinley Wright we’re seeing at Colorado would be the same McKinley Wright at IU. I think it’s a legitimate question to ask is it really a talent issue or is it a development issue? With the exception of Armaan no guard in the CAM tenure has really developed into a dependable and consistent player. And it’s premature to say Armaan is going to become that guy. Remember, we thought Rob was going to be that guy at the beginning of year two as well. 

I mean, you have one guard in 4 years who struggles with consistency and it’s fair to point fingers at the player. Two guards who struggle with consistency, still fair. But when there’s not one guard you can depend on, on a game to game basis in 4 years? That’s systematic. No? That’s a whole lot of bad luck or there’s a problem of not identifying the guards you need to run your system, not being able to get those guards, or not being able to develop those guards.  I’m sick of hearing the bad luck excuses. DO we not think every other team in CBB run into these issues? ‘Bad luck’ is a losers mentality; winners create their luck. 

It’s easy to make excuses about depth, injuries, losing out on a guy, etc., but I also need to point out that we have had empty roster spots almost every year that were not filled. CAM not done much to overcome or prepare himself for these shortfalls. 

 

[Fiveoutofsix]

7 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I woke up this morning and I think I am fully on the "its over" train now.  I have had a foot heavily in that direction but I think this is done.  Based on how this year is likely to end, the stuff going on with social media between players/families/fans/famous alumni...I just think this thing is broken and there is not the ability or the time for Miller to repair it.

With the liberal transfer rules at the end of the year, now is the time to cut the cord.  It would allow a new guy to quickly fill roster holes and it allows current players who want a change of scenery the ability to do that by staying at IU or leaving if that is what they need.  But it allows those transitions to go without them having to sit.

Dolson just need to pull the plug. 

It can be fixed, and it can be fixed with the current staff, Archie or a new direction.

The first correction is to adapt, be flexible and embrace change.  These are basic 21st century skills and they say the future workforce is looking for it.

My question is, why do we not see adjustments in game, in style, in defense, in offense, in who starts, etc.  

There hasn't been a game this year that couldn't of been won, including Texas.  Archie has the philosophy, it seems, this is what we do and let's focus on it and get better at it. The problem is, other teams are getting better as well.

I have heard get rid if the packline?  Packline does not allow penetration to the rim like IU does late in the game.  

Just try adapting, tweaking, adjustments.  Know your team, explore different styles of play.

[BGleas]

24 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I woke up this morning and I think I am fully on the "its over" train now.  I have had a foot heavily in that direction but I think this is done.  Based on how this year is likely to end, the stuff going on with social media between players/families/fans/famous alumni...I just think this thing is broken and there is not the ability or the time for Miller to repair it.

With the liberal transfer rules at the end of the year, now is the time to cut the cord.  It would allow a new guy to quickly fill roster holes and it allows current players who want a change of scenery the ability to do that by staying at IU or leaving if that is what they need.  But it allows those transitions to go without them having to sit.

Dolson just need to pull the plug. 

I want to disagree. I do still think there is a chance Archie can turn it around, but it's getting harder and harder to disagree with this. 

[IUCrazy2]

18 minutes ago, Fiveoutofsix said:

It can be fixed, and it can be fixed with the current staff, Archie or a new direction.

The first correction is to adapt, be flexible and embrace change.  These are basic 21st century skills and they say the future workforce is looking for it.

My question is, why do we not see adjustments in game, in style, in defense, in offense, in who starts, etc.  

There hasn't been a game this year that couldn't of been won, including Texas.  Archie has the philosophy, it seems, this is what we do and let's focus on it and get better at it. The problem is, other teams are getting better as well.

I have heard get rid if the packline?  Packline does not allow penetration to the rim like IU does late in the game.  

Just try adapting, tweaking, adjustments.  Know your team, explore different styles of play.

You said it yourself.  Miller is resistant to change and doing new things.  So this is not getting fixed by the current staff.  And his experimentation time is basically over.  We are coming to the end of year 4.  You don't expect to go into year 5 with the exact same questions you had in year 1.

[Hippopotamo]

I think Archie should and will get year 5. If it’s anything less than a season where IU is in the big ten title conversation and safely in the tournament then the administration can move on. But I still think moving on after this year is a mistake. The potential names thrown around have been either unrealistic or uninspiring, and I would rather be 100% confident that moving on is the right move instead of potentially pulling the plug a little too early.

[BADGERVOL]

56 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

I used to give Crean a lot of crap about his whole philosophy to just play faster.  And god every time I see Phinisee walk the ball up the court I long for that.  I also miss beating Purdue on occasion 

Theres virtually NOTHING we do that puts fear in anyone.

[IUCrazy2]

Just now, Hippopotamo said:

I think Archie should and will get year 5. If it’s anything less than a season where IU is in the big ten title conversation and safely in the tournament then the administration can move on. But I still think moving on after this year is a mistake. The potential names thrown around have been either unrealistic or uninspiring, and I would rather be 100% confident that moving on is the right move instead of potentially pulling the plug a little too early.

This is probably what will happen but I am saying this, not having fans in Assembly Hall has been a blessing for this team.  They would have gotten booed by their own crowd several times this year.

Keeping Miller means retaining that energy.  It is not going away.  And at the first signs of these past 2 years popping up again, that energy is going to come out next year.  To me that is a bad look, but I think Miller has lost his support network at Indiana.  I think many of the high dollar boosters are done with him.  I think a bunch of former players are done with him.  I think a sizable (majority?) number of fans are either done or indifferent about his tenure.  He's drowning and he won't be getting any life preservers next year.  In fact, if we are playing .500ish Big Ten ball again at this time next year, people will be pushing him under.

This place destroys coaches in his situation.  That may not be the best look for the fans, but in my opinion the administration holds on so long that they basically invite active fan revolt against the coach.  That is what you are looking at next year if things do not go really well.  We are already at the point where fans are all over the players on Twitter.  We are going to get a years worth of hearing about how awful are fans are next year.

[BADGERVOL]

9 minutes ago, Hippopotamo said:

I think Archie should and will get year 5. If it’s anything less than a season where IU is in the big ten title conversation and safely in the tournament then the administration can move on. But I still think moving on after this year is a mistake. The potential names thrown around have been either unrealistic or uninspiring, and I would rather be 100% confident that moving on is the right move instead of potentially pulling the plug a little too early.

Serious question...TJD comes back by some miracle, and we finish 4th in the Big Ten an earn a 7th seed and are safely in all season but everyone knows we lose first round. And we do lose first round. And the team looks to be no better or even worse for the following year.

What would your thoughts be then roughly?

Based on the past four years I’d say reasonably that’s the most realistic scenario for next year. That the 5th year of his tenure IS his best yet but FAR from where anyone when he was hired, hoped and expected we would be.

[IUCrazy2]

Just now, BADGERVOL said:

Serious question...TJD comes back by some miracle, and we finish 4th in the Big Ten an earn a 7th seed and are safely in all season but everyone knows we lose first round. And we do lose first round. And the team looks to be no better or even worse for the following year.

What would your thoughts be then roughly?

What is our Big Ten record to finish 4th and did we start strong and limp down stretch, start rough and finish strong, or were we up and down all season?

2 of those 3 and I say fire him.

[IU Scott]

50 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I woke up this morning and I think I am fully on the "its over" train now.  I have had a foot heavily in that direction but I think this is done.  Based on how this year is likely to end, the stuff going on with social media between players/families/fans/famous alumni...I just think this thing is broken and there is not the ability or the time for Miller to repair it.

With the liberal transfer rules at the end of the year, now is the time to cut the cord.  It would allow a new guy to quickly fill roster holes and it allows current players who want a change of scenery the ability to do that by staying at IU or leaving if that is what they need.  But it allows those transitions to go without them having to sit.

Dolson just need to pull the plug. 

Have I missed something because all I have heard about was between DD and the Jackson-Davis family.  Has there been other stuff going on twitter that I haven't heard about.

[IU Scott]

16 minutes ago, Hippopotamo said:

I think Archie should and will get year 5. If it’s anything less than a season where IU is in the big ten title conversation and safely in the tournament then the administration can move on. But I still think moving on after this year is a mistake. The potential names thrown around have been either unrealistic or uninspiring, and I would rather be 100% confident that moving on is the right move instead of potentially pulling the plug a little too early.

The thing is no matter when a change is made the same candidates will there.  Anyone expecting it to be one of the elite coaches in the country will be disappointed.  They won't come if we make a change this year or next year so why does it matter what year we make the change if it is needed.

[iuthruandthru]

Lots of good talk in this thread.  One thing just keeps sticking with me.  If Crean was fired after multiple sweet 16 and BIG titles I have no idea how IU can stick with Archie.  Instead of all this analysis and deep diving that to me really says it all.  I don’t see next year being any better with the current roster and the way Archie coaches the team.  It’s time for the AD to set his tone for what he expects out of IU basketball and make his first big hire.

[Hippopotamo]

14 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

Serious question...TJD comes back by some miracle, and we finish 4th in the Big Ten an earn a 7th seed and are safely in all season but everyone knows we lose first round. And we do lose first round. And the team looks to be no better or even worse for the following year.

What would your thoughts be then roughly?

Based on the past four years I’d say reasonably that’s the most realistic scenario for next year. That the 5th year of his tenure IS his best yet but FAR from where anyone when he was hired, hoped and expected we would be.

That’d be a tough spot to be in. Personally I would probably do a Harbaugh-like extension where there’s a lower buyout. It’d be hard for me to want to move on when there’s progress, even if we’re absolutely not at the level we should be. I really don’t want to go through another rebuild unless we get a 100% sure fire head coach. And I’m not sure that’s a possibility anytime soon.